How should I figure out what the “right” size of engine is for a speedster?

A lot of older cars were built with 1600cc motors. Engine tech and availability has advanced a lot in the last 25 years. I don’t think anyone builds a car today with less than a 1915. Seems like Pat Down’s 145hp 2335 is becoming the popular choice these days.  

An early car with a 1600 shouldn’t be a non-starter, if the price is right. Probably easier to swap an engine than brakes. And who knows, you might find it perfectly adequate.

The right engine PAIRED with the right transmission, or would it be transaxle, can make all the difference. It doesn’t have to have the most hp if it it has the right gearing to make it go right through the twistys. You want to avoid being in 3rd at too high of an RPM and then shifting into 4th only to find yourself dropping too low in the RPM range and lugging the motor.

That’s going to be harder to find than a good used Speedster. But definitely something that you can correct after you get one.

If you don’t want to redo everything look for something in the 1915, 2110cc and above category. Otherwise get anything you can find and make it what you want.

When we bought our VS on the second hand market it came with a 1600.  For what it’s worth: we bought the car, not for the motor but for the car.  Our first trip out of town revealed a significant desire for more power.  After all there is no replacement for displacement.

That said, I bought what I thought to be a 1915 that turned out to be a 1776.  All was well in the end as I bought that motor with the intent to tear it down and build from zero.

My goal was power + a turbocharger so I had a 2180 built to serve my needs.  I ran the 2180 with the right cam with 44 Webbers without the turbo for a while and it was a blast compared to the 1600 it replaced.  The 2180 had plenty of power pre-turbo but I had a vision and I chased that dream.  Because of the longer stroke it was more than bolting parts on to grow.  While in the planning stages of the build I was adamant I didn’t want to go over 2L.  Boy was I wrong and how I enjoy the purr of that 2180, not to mention the whistle of that booster!  I still haven’t felt the power peak even when getting close to 6k RPM…it pulls and pulls and pulls.

I can tell you that a 1600, while underpowered by most standards, would have been plenty had I wanted a slow roll.  When bouncing around with my 1600 I would cruise with a few friends with Speedsters.  One of which had the aforementioned 1776 and the other had (I believe) a 1915.  Both left me wanting.

Anyway…I agree the right combo is the key.  But I would argue that a 1776 or 1915 will do all you want it to.  Then again, this little hobby of ours is affectionately referred to as a “madness” so if you build, I say build bigger than you think you want or need.  If you buy, buy knowing the bug will bite you and you’ll put your own spin on the whole thing.

There is always room to grow.

Just be aware that displacement isn't the only factor.  Cam, heads, etc. are equally important.  When I got my Beck in 2006 the factory offered two engine - both 1915cc and both built by Pat Downs when he was at CB Performance.  One was in a mild state of tune with an emphasis on smoothness and low maintenance, and the other was more highly tuned with the ability for further tweaking.  I chose the latter and it was quite fun, but after a while I could see that even more would be better.  A tuned 1915 is the bottom entry to me.  Going 2300 or above will usually mean a lot more maintenance.  I drove Tom Blankinship's Beck with a 2065 and was quite impressed.  Something along that order would be where I would go if I built another air-cooled car, but that's just me.

You can't go wrong calling Pat Downs and asking his advice.  He's got his own shop now and I don't know how to get in touch, but it's worth the research.

EDIT: Oh yeah, what @Robert M said is absolutely correct.  Your best bet, if the budget allows, is to have someone like Pat Downs build the engine and recommend gearing that you spec to Rancho and have them build the transaxle.  Get it all designed as a package.

https://patdownsperformance.com/

If you want the ultimate air cooled have Pat build you a 2.65L Type 4. 180 hp with 230 ft-lbs. Some day when my number comes up that’s my plan. Next spring has been promised. But bring a fat wallet.

@BubbaMcCranky posted:

I’ve been looking longingly at speedster replicas for quite a while (including lots of lurking here) and am now getting serious about buying one.

I’m completely baffled, though, about how to think about the engine sizing  and how that relates to real-world fun and driving performance. I have some very quick vehicles (997 911, M4, Rivian R1T, triumph Street Triple… you get the idea). I don't expect the speedster to keep up with those, nor am I buying one in hopes that it will, But I also don’t want it to feel boring and sluggish. I live in Western PA so I expect I’ll be driving it mostly on curvy, hilly backroads where lots of power is not necessarily required for a fun drive. That said, “More power, more better” has worked pretty well as a heuristic in the past :-)

It seems that standard air cooled engines run from 1600 up to about 2300 cc’s, and that HP and torque go up more or less with displacement. But it also seems that a given displacement can yield a wide range of output power.

I’m mostly looking at 2nd hand replicas from the major vendors on BaT, her, PCarmarket, etc. none of which really offer an easy way to try the vehicle out before buying. Most of them, though, list engine displacement.

So… should I steer clear of the 1600 cc’s (there seems to be some sentiment that way in the forums)? Is something in the 1900 range likely to feel quite lively and sporty, or should I be looking for a big air cooled engine (>2l)?

I realize this is fundamentally a subjective question, so please do share your subjective, opinionated thoughts on the topic — those are exactly what I’m looking for.

Thx.

Welcome to the group, Bubba. I'm a proponent of "too much is actually too much," but reading your query I will advise you thusly: You want a big engine with a spiffy cam and high compression, balanced, with a lightened flywheel, and as close a close-ratio gearbox as you can get.

You seem to be demanding an air-cooled deal. So I'll start out by saying any Subaru-powered Speedster will put you in the power position you seek. I put a 2.2 Subaru in my MG replica and its 137 hp is absolutely more than is prudent for that chassis. You would enjoy a 2.5 with 165+ hp. The Suby offers a modern torque curve with is very flat and broad—very different from a Type 1 with similar displacement.

For Type 1s, I think your minimum engine is the very popular 2110 CB Performance build with 150-ish hp. That's a reliable package: dual Webers, header, .460 lift cam and power peak about 5500-6000 with the long runover arc you get with solid lifters. Put a rev limiter on it and set that to 6500 just to be reasonable.

And more is more. A 2165? 2180? 2270? Sure. If built by reputable pros, dynamically balanced, etc., with cam and heads (Panchitos) that make it want to hang around the right hand sweep of the tach. You'll be looking at HP in the 165-185 range.

Then pair it with a transaxle with 3.88 ring and pinion and a .93 4th gear. That's a standard Beetle ratio and it's good for what you want to do. Do not be snookered into going for a "freeway flyer" highway 4th gear (.89 is ok but .82 is absolutely not). Do not get my favorite 3.44 r&p. It would be wasted on you and your car. If you really want to go crazy (I mean have fun) get with @DannyP and build a gearbox to his specifications with higher 1st and 2nd gears and a shorter 4th. Or get in line for a Berg 5 Speed.

Lots of Speedsters were made with 2110s, and most of those were built more or less to that 150 hp hotrod standard. You might get lucky. But probably not.

To get the car you describe, buy any Speedster that looks and runs well for an affordable price, and budget $10k for the engine/trans. Good luck!

@550 Phil posted:

If you want the ultimate air cooled have Pat build you a 2.65L Type 4. 180 hp with 230 ft-lbs. Some day when my number comes up that’s my plan. Next spring has been promised. But bring a fat wallet.

If you really want to get close to the "ultimate air cooled" engine, at least in VW flat 4 form, a Pauter Machine engine is the ticket.

It's rather strange that many of the used Speedster original owners don't know their engine size -- or don't pass info to the new buyer.  When I hear 1600 cc engine - I think of the OEM VW Bug 40-50 hp engine with a single carb and pea shooter exhaust.  You won't find many of those in a nicely built speedster.  What you'll find is dual carbs, a performance cam, and larger valve heads with a tri-mill or A1 exhaust. So maybe 65-70 hp?

I've always liked the 1776 and 2110 cc engine size for cost, longevity, performance and MPG.  Once you go over 1776 you will need to upgrade brakes and suspension - perhaps even transmission.  1915 cc has always been the economy performance build.  It uses the stock 69 mm throw crank and large 94 cc P&C.  If cam, heads, carbs, exhaust are upgraded during the build it can be a good compromise.  Going to stroked cranks is costly - crank is costly and the case has to be clearanced (often a new case is used) --- ca-ching.

There just aren't many used Subaru powered Speedsters out there yet. 

We call this “madness” for a very good reason.

If you come from an English or inexpensive 60s or 70s European car background, you have a hope of hitting a sweet-spot. If you come from a muscle-car or hot-rod background, all I can say is, “ I am so sorry. Temper your expectations or brace yourself to spend more than seems possible for so little power”.

Tough love from Uncle Stan.

Opinions? Let's talk about engine oil.....

@Panhandle Bob posted:

Opinions? Let's talk about engine oil.....

Oh, now you've done it! 

Question used to be: "How fast can you afford to go?"

Seems a stock 1600-1681 cc engine with new parts is $5-6k

1915 w dual carbs - $8k

2110 $14k

Bigger $20k

T4 Raby $24k

Subaru $26K?

Just quick guesstimates.

Just an A1 exhaust is $1400+

A1 SIDWINDER SPEESTER: Pierside Parts

That $10k Jake Ruby on TheSamba sure looks good right now.

FWIW, generally, with the possible exception of carbs, he’d only need a long block. Everything else he could take off the current motor.

@WOLFGANG posted:

Question used to be: "How fast can you afford to go?"

Seems a stock 1600-1681 cc engine with new parts is $5-6k

1915 w dual carbs - $8k

2110 $14k

Bigger $20k

T4 Raby $24k

Subaru $26K?

Just quick guesstimates.

Just an A1 exhaust is $1400+

A1 SIDWINDER SPEESTER: Pierside Parts

I think you are over estimating the cost of stroker engines.  There is very little difference in cost between a 1776 and a 2332, ASSUMING you are using a new engine case, off the shelf CB 044 heads of some type and chromoly rods.

The difference is, are you capable of building it, or you are paying someone.  When assembling a stroker engine, especially with high lift cams and rockers, there are a lot of clearances to check.  This takes time, and sometimes you need to clearance the camshaft, which usually isn't an issue until you get to an 84mm stroke. Time costs money.

CB Performance offers kits,

1776  $4900

2110  $5100

2332  $6400  most of the additional cost on this kit is the heads and Wiseco Pistons.

I underestimated the budget so as not to scare Bubba off. These are just rebodied Bugs how much could they cost?

@edsnova posted:

I underestimated the budget so as not to scare Bubba off. These are just rebodied Bugs how much could they cost?

You a funny man.  Funny, funny man.

@edsnova posted:

I underestimated the budget so as not to scare Bubba off. These are just rebodied Bugs how much could they cost?

If you are a rookie, set your budget, then double it. That will get you in the ballpark.  If you have done this before, set a budget and multiply it by 1.5.

@LI-Rick posted:

If you are a rookie, set your budget, then double it. That will get you in the ballpark.  If you have done this before, set a budget and multiply it by 1.5.

Probably the best businessman I ever knew personally gave me some advice once regarding building or remodeling, and it holds true on custom car work as well.

He told me, “Get realistic hard-number estimates from three different trusted contractors.

Then add them all together and you’ll be in the ballpark.”

@edsnova posted:

These are just rebodied Bugs how much could they cost?

A: Enough that honesty with oneself (to say nothing of one’s spouse) is not the norm.

More than a C7 ‘vette. Probably more than a C8. Enough that Camaro SS 1LEs (with the 6.2 LT and the 6-sp manual and the Brembo/Recaro/go-fast goodies) start to look impossibly underpriced.

I think that would be "honesty".  My wife has no idea how much I have spent on my Speedster. I spent more this week on a tool and parts.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

I think that would be "honesty".

Fixed. Thanks.

Interesting to note CB Performance is not taking orders for new engine builds.

The builds on this page with displacement, compression ratio, cam, intake, heads (+port work) and dyno numbers should give Bubba an idea of what he's getting himself into.

For comparison, the 1915 in my Spyder was a Jake Raby build rated at 120 HP @5500 rpm/ 125 lb-ft at 4000, one of a series of similar (if not identical) engines he made for Beck/Special edition near the time Lane got his.

The advertised compression ratio is 8.5 to 1. The cam is an Engle W-125 (.460 lift, 262 duration with 1.1 rockers). Balanced, lightened flywheel, Weber 44s.

The ignition system on these Type 1 builds is traditionally the weak link: The stock Chinese copy of a 009 mechanical advance distributor, originally made for industrial applications, with a Pertronix module in place of the points and condenser. It usually gives a lot of low-midrange spark scatter. Almost anything is better. Like "Feels like a different engine" better.

I think guys built motors with these because they'd still give high HP/Torque numbers at WOT on the dyno. The trouble was in the real world driving, with all that part throttle, 2200 RPM nonsense drag racers care nothing about. That's where they suck, and where a guy trying to make sports car gestures in a hilly area below Pittsburgh might get frustrated.

Whatever displacement you get, fix that first.

Mine is fixed with a CB Performance Black Box handling the spark. Others go with a Magnaspark distributor. The gold standard is crank fire.

@edsnova posted:

Interesting to note CB Performance is not taking orders for new engine builds.

Wasn’t that Pat Down’s gig? It’s understandable that after he left they couldn’t find anyone to pick up the reins. Sad, but understandable. They still sell the Builder’s Choice kits, though.

I'm speculating but yeah, probably that exactly.

I’ve gone round and round about it and finally decided I really want to build an engine. I have two friends who are experts, so I’ll have good tutelage.  One has all the parts to build a 2110 turbo he was going to put in his cargo van, but he sold it. I wouldn’t turbo it, but if I can talk him out of the boxes for a long block, I’ll do it. Otherwise, I think I’m going to put together a 2335 based on Pat’s parts list.

I suspect knowing the "right" size engine is an ephemeral event. Most of the time my well tweaked 1776 feels just right. Other times, my memories of past engines and unbridled hooning lead me to look at spec sheets for engine kits/parts.

So far I've been able to be very happy with what I've built, but I suspect most folks dream of more. When I built the 911 FrankenTurbo, I built it to be able to hold together up to 800 hp. Common sense kept it at a street spec of 425 hp, but that didn't mean I ever stopped wondering what it would be like if I changed out the turbo for a higher flowing unit. More is always more, it just might not be smart.

In every case, I agree with @edsnova, make sure the ignition is solid. I've always gone with crankfired ignitions.

@Michael Pickett wrote: "but that didn't mean I ever stopped wondering what it would be like if I changed out the turbo for a higher flowing unit."

Let me take a stab at that.  My brother had a Callaway Stage 2 Scirocco that was probably producing around 240 honest horsepower but he never dyno'd it.  It was a screamer, leaving Mustangs and 'Vettes in it's wake, but his seat-of-the-pants dyno was always wanting more.

So he put in a monster-big Turbo, with water injection and variable boost and then finally got it on a wheel dyno and found that it put out 480 hp to the wheels, so a little over 500hp at the crank.   It was a beast and actually started to be scary to drive, but that wasn't the real problem.  The REAL problem was that it was almost impossible to keep head gaskets in it - It would blow them out in a few months.  That's how I found it after he passed, and figured out how to get a new custom head gasket from an old employee at Callaway back then and put it back together.

I sold it to a guy near Boston who has restored it, but put the original, smaller turbo back in, telling me that the big one made it just too scary to be comfortable with but the lower flowing one seems just right.  Lesson learned, but a bit too late.

@Michael Pickett posted:

In every case, I agree with @edsnova, make sure the ignition is solid. I've always gone with crankfired ignitions.

If you start down that rabbit hole recommend the crank trigger ignition system from the Dub Shop.  I believe people in this forum will agree.

@WOLFGANG posted:

Question used to be: "How fast can you afford to go?"

Seems a stock 1600-1681 cc engine with new parts is $5-6k

1915 w dual carbs - $8k

2110 $14k

Bigger $20k

T4 Raby $24k

Subaru $26K?

Just quick guesstimates.

Just an A1 exhaust is $1400+

A1 SIDWINDER SPEESTER: Pierside Parts

You are way overestimating the price of Subaru. My 200hp Outfront engine in 2017 was $9k. That’s out the door with stinger ECU, powder coating etc. Maybe things have changed a bit but Suby power by far is your best bang for the buck. And reliability has been perfect. Now ask me why I’m paying over twice that much for a type 4. I have no idea.

@550 Phil posted:

You are way overestimating the price of Subaru. My 200hp Outfront engine in 2017 was $9k. That’s out the door with stinger ECU, powder coating etc. Maybe things have changed a bit but Suby power by far is your best bang for the buck. And reliability has been perfect. Now ask me why I’m paying over twice that much for a type 4. I have no idea.

Because a replica of an air cooled car should have an air cooled engine!

@550 Phil posted:

Now ask me why I’m paying over twice that much for a type 4. I have no idea.

@LI-Rick posted:

Because a replica of an air cooled car should have an air cooled engine!

Also, because you're not.

There's a lot of plumbing involved in a water pumper, along with a custom radiator, not to mention the almost complete loss of the trunk. It might not add up to the cost delta between a EJ25 and a T4, but there's significant money and fabrication work there.

I just took a SWAG at engine prices.  Prices have greatly increased in last couple years with fewer quality builders.  Remember GEX and mexicrate engines - both a crap shoot.  30 years ago I rebuilt a VW engine for $70 - rings/exhaust valves/gaskets/broken studs.

A stock 1600 engine doesn't need an extended oil sump, remote oil filter, oil breather or remote oil cooling radiator with thermostat/electric fan - larger engines most likely do.  A small engine can get by with single barrel carb or small EMPI/Kadrons - you'll need 3x-cost carbs for larger engines.  Subby engines can go a wide range - from a used $300 complete car with hi-mile engine to a new block (like Beck does) or a complete rebuild at least.  Add engine adapter ($600)/flywheel/clutch, mounting cradle/rear mount, costly custom exhaust, modified wiring harness ($600), plus plumbing/radiator/bleed valves/electric fans.  As you get to a larger engine you'll want a beefier/regeared transaxle.

@LI-Rick posted:

Because a replica of an air cooled car should have an air cooled engine!

.....................Thank you Jesus !

@WOLFGANG posted:

I just took a SWAG at engine prices.  Prices have greatly increased in last couple years with fewer quality builders.  Remember GEX and mexicrate engines - both a crap shoot.  30 years ago I rebuilt a VW engine for $70 - rings/exhaust valves/gaskets/broken studs.

A stock 1600 engine doesn't need an extended oil sump, remote oil filter, oil breather or remote oil cooling radiator with thermostat/electric fan - larger engines most likely do.  A small engine can get by with single barrel carb or small EMPI/Kadrons - you'll need 3x-cost carbs for larger engines.  Subby engines can go a wide range - from a used $300 complete car with hi-mile engine to a new block (like Beck does) or a complete rebuild at least.  Add engine adapter ($600)/flywheel/clutch, mounting cradle/rear mount, costly custom exhaust, modified wiring harness ($600), plus plumbing/radiator/bleed valves/electric fans.  As you get to a larger engine you'll want a beefier/regeared transaxle.

You are conflating engine size with engine performance.  You can turn a 1600 engine to 7000 or 8000 rpm, but you will need all good parts. Or you can build a 2332, with a low lift cam and Kadrons, and never rev it over 4000 rpm. That 1600 better have a good oiling system, that 2332 could get away with a 21mm oil pump.

I built my engine years ago.  I've never owned a V8 so don't know hp.  Have thirsty V6 in Yota 4Runner but it's a heavy SUV. I built a 1641cc engine with stock block.  I went with an Engle 110 cam, counter weighted crank, lightened flywheel, Dual Dellorto carbs, 041 heads, remote oil cooler and filter, plus oil breather.  I have to install the solid rocker arms I got from Paul a couple years ago at Carlisle -- and swap chrome cylinder covers for stock flat black OEM ones.  I'm hoping for decent performance - in flat hot FL now so don't mind stirring the gears a bit. 

@WOLFGANG posted:

I've never owned a V8 so don't know hp.

I like to think we're all alike, you know - the brotherhood of man, and all... and then I read a statement like that, and I wonder if we're living on the same ball spinning in space.

I mean absolutely no offense by this, but if you've never owned a V8, you really "don't know hp". 8 cylinders is the starting point for corn-fed muscle-heads out here in Flyover, USA. We used to think of a Mustang 5.0 as a cute little engine. 5.7L (350 C/I) is where things started to make sense. A lot of us liked Pontiacs because thir engine family had one size block that was manufactured up to 455 cubic inches _{(that's 6.6 L for you metric-centric fellas, which is not to be confused with the freakin' Oldsmobile 6.6 (455) they put in Trans Ams during the malaise years at the General. That was sacrilege.)}

95% of the Flyover car-guys who look at my car have no idea of what they're looking at - there may as well be rubberbands wound up back there.

@dlearl476 posted:

Wasn’t that Pat Down’s gig? It’s understandable that after he left they couldn’t find anyone to pick up the reins. Sad, but understandable. They still sell the Builder’s Choice kits, though.

CBP is located in Farmersville, CA which is a very small town north of Visalia, Ca which is also a small town. They were extremely lucky that Pat worked there for 40 years and he was the one of the best in the business. There just isn't that many good and reputable engine builders around and trying to find another one willing to live in a small town is difficult, if not near impossible. When he left CB there was no one else to build their engines so they don't offer that service anymore. Anyone that wants an engine gets hold of PD through his website and has him build them one still though.

^ that was gracious. Pat Downs WAS CBP. They're nothing without him.

Pat Downs will succeed in whatever he does. The Tomlinson family needs to get some focus.