Hydraulic clutch debug question

Sounds like it needs to be bled.

Since you're not losing fluid, almost certainly a bad seal in the MC. Fluid leaks past the first (pressure) seal and flows back into the reservoir, but doesn't leak out of the MC past the second seal. A bad seal in the SC would cause a leak.

 

If it were simply air in the lines, you wouldn't get a full extension followed by a slow bleed down like that. Same with mechanical failures. Function would be impaired throughout the pedal range.

The SACO unit seemed like a neat idea, but I think I'm convinced it wasn't the way to go.  I'll most likely be converting to a through-the-firewall MC in the near future.

 

Hey Tom, I thought you already had a hydraulic clutch, but Carey says he's doing one for you this winter.  Did I have a senior moment or something?

I do, but he's updating the pedal design.  I had a minor part failure after 1.5 years (easily repaired by me in 15 minutes w/o getting dirty) and they now install a different configuration that is more durable and has a better stroke motion.  Also, mine needed to be bled, hence my comment.

Lane:

 

You could go back to a clutch cable.

 

They don't leak at all......

Had enough trouble with that setup.  Gettin' tired of fixing this.

Oh yeah...  And when I installed the slave saver bracket I had to saw off the cast piece on the transaxle side plate that holds the aft end of the bowden tube.  I guess I'm kinda committed unless there is a bolt-on bracket available.

Lane check with Rancho....I believe they sell a steel replacement for that piece that bolts to the side cover.....(might have to use some longer studs.)

Already had to put in the longer studs for the slave saver bracket.

 

I really like the feel and smoothness of the hydraulic clutch, so I have to decide if it's worth the work to do it "the right way" this time.  I could just get another MC from SACO, but that's just a temporary solution apparently.

Jeez, what a bummer. What'd you get out of that rig, Lane? One season? Two, maybe?

Sounds like my last engine.

2 years almost exactly.  I'm torn between doing it the way I want (through-firewall MC) and going back to cable to be done with it.  Keeping hydraulic will be a pain because the metal on the Beck firewall at that point is very thick, but I really do prefer it.

I am old school so I'll say this in "hine-sight" a lot of the new improved VW stuff is cool but but the Germans did things the way they did for a reason,  it worked and worked well....i.e. as long as a clutch cable tube in a speedster is replicated to the likeness of OEM it works .

Lane, before you hit the panic switch, bleed it. First, get rid of the old fluid in the MC reservoir. Replace with new, then bleed until it comes out clean. If it still doesn't work right, rebuild or replace the MC and slave. I change the fluid in my brakes and clutch every two years. You would be amazed at the black goo that comes out that you thought was good brake fluid! That blackened fluid is full of moisture which will pit the pistons and sleeves of your system. I am still using all the original hydraulic parts on my car, they are ten years old. Except the rear wheel cylinders, replaced a few years ago.

 

My clutch MC is always the blackest fluid too. I wonder if SACO is made of similar metals(or supplier) compared with my Neal?

Bled it, but saw no air.  The fluid came out black and full of flecks of aluminum before finally turning clear.  I'm pretty sure my original theory (MC failure) is correct as there are no signs of leaks.  The MC mounting flexes a bit during pedal travel, and the pushrod is not centered, nor can it be without some fabrication.  I will not replace the MC with another one of the same type, so my choices are the more normal hydraulic setup that Carey uses (looks like a lot of work) or to switch back to cable.  Grrr...

Lane,  that's a real bummer.  Even mine that Carey installed has not been flawless.  He's installing an improved pedal thingamajiggy (sorry for getting all technical on you.  I really am the midwest Gerd...in some ways) to improve the pedal travel and bleeding the system.  I was having grinding issues that I attributed to poor CSP adjustment on my part, but, after discussing it with them, I think it is air in the lines.  I hope my clutch issues are behind me after this winter.  I do love being so close to a builder that gives me the best customer service ever.  I wish you the best of luck in your repair.  Maybe it's time to ship your car to Carey for awhile now that it's 63 and all.

Shipping from here is too pricey - probably at least $1000 round trip.  This I can fix myself, although I'm thinking about going back to cable for now.

 

Carey tells me that he's improved the connection of pedal to pushrod with a heim joint.  The bleeding is actually easy to do yourself as long as the bleeder nipple is pointing up.

 

Wonder what Vinny can do with that one 

Really thinking about going back to cable now.  Rancho doesn't seem to have a bolt-on bowden tube bracket, but Cip1 does.  It's for an IRS tranny, but I'll bet the bolt locations are the same and it costs under $10.  That and a new cable from Carey would have me back on the road.  Starting to sound attractive, at least for the short term.  Since I removed the access panel under the tunnel, putting on a cable should be pretty easy.  Hmmm...  I hate to admit defeat on the hydraulic, but it is the easier route.

Sorry to hear of your hydraulic grief, Lane. If you do go back to cable, you might want to consider a trick Jack Crosby showed me. Install a longer clutch actuator lever than stock ( it might be a Bus lever / check your spline dia ) and you'll feel a very pleasant and smooth action.

From the Samba for long clutch arms.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/cla...detail.php?id=801962

Thanks for the link, Doug.

David--yep, it is a bus lever that is considerable longer for more leverage.  My clutch specs are: 200mm forged conversion flywheel, with a Kennedy Satge I pressure plate.  The clutch disc is a Sachs 200 mm with a VW Bus clutch lever.  I never asked or it but Jake did it this way and it's smooth as butter and the clutch pedal is VERY easy to press down.

That's what I'm running, too.  I thought everybody knew this trick......I guess not!

 

Lane!  You've driven Pearl....Her clutch action is like Buddah, even with a Kennedy Stage 1, 1,700 pound plate.

Gordon, I'll bet there's a hundred tricks I've yet to be aware of...learn something everytime I open this site.

 

Does the shortened speedster clutch cable have to be replaced or 'extended' to actuate the longer lever?

So what's involved in swapping to a longer lever?

Lane, all you do is spend about $25 on a new, longer lever, pull off the old one, rassle with the spring and install the longer lever. My cable had plenty of length in the adjustment threads to accomodate the longer lever. HOWEVER.... I did the swap when the engine was out of the car and I had access to the throw out bearing actuator shaft from the inside. There MAY be a risk that when you pull the old lever off, you may need to pull the actuator arm outward when sliding the new lever on the splines because you need room for that circlip on the outside.

 

As an aside....my countdown calendar sez I'll be outa here in 122 days again heading deep South. :-) We just got about 24" of snow in the last week. 

Like Dave, I did mine when I installed the tranny so I've never had anything else.  

 

I run a more-or-less "normal" speedster clutch cable length, although I get them made by a sail boat rigger (I'm always close to a coast!).  All I did was ask how long the speedster cable was and the rigger made one that length from a sedan cable.  I've had a few others made for people and they're very nice (stainless, metric fitting) but pricey at $25 a pop.

 

I also shoot a lot of molybdnum grease into the clutch tube at the rear and grease up the cable a lot on the way in, so they tend to last (at least for me) quite a long time - I'm still on my original cable after 12 years.

Howdy Lane!! Curious which brake fluid are you using? Hopefully DOT 3 . DOT4  is not compatible with rubber seals. Don't go back to the cable!!!

Honestly don't remember, Joe, but It seems to be the aluminum of the MC that's failing, given the number of flecks in the fluid.  I'll check when I get home.  It certainly would be easier to just swap out the MC with one of the same, but I have decided I don't care for the design, and doing it the "right way" is a bit of a bother.  The cable will get me back on the road while I decide what to do.

 

Oh yeah...  When are we gonna see you at Carlisle again?

Yes, Lane, I have been trying to coax Joe to caravan out with the Midwest contingent. We need to stay on him about this...seeing his message here is encouraging, as if he really wants to maybe show up. C'mon down, Joe!

It's ALIIIIIVE!!!!!!!! 

 

The return to cable was much easier due to the removable panel under the tunnel (no more cable slipping off the clutch arm while installing), and the sawed off bowden tube thingie on the transaxle.  The bolt-on one for an IRS trans fit fine and made the work at that end MUCH easier.

 

That said,  I still want to find that a$$hole that designed the Beetle pedal cluster.  I don't think I've cussed that much in a very long time.  I really never, ever want to touch that motherf---er again.

 

Over the weekend I'll disassemble the master cylinder and see if my theory is confirmed.  The pushrod could not be lined up to push straight back due to tunnel/pedal geometry, and I believe that offset the piston enough to score the walls of the cylinder, causing it to fail.

I admire you tenacity, Lane. U B DA MAN.

Congrats Lane!

Sorry to hear about your clutch issues Lane and you got me rethinking my move to the hydraulic setup. Suggestions welcome...

 

Joe, as Carey pointed out to me, they both have their drawbacks. Choose your poison.

Great to hear you're back on the road Lane. If youre thinking about going back to the hydraulic set up Ill help you out. I played with lots of custom linkage setups.

I'll second that!  When I started to rebuild my IM I sanded and repainted the interior side of the pan.  I also took off the peddle assembly. 

WHAT A PAIN-IN-THE-ASS IT WAS TO REINSTALL!

Had mine out last year to freshen it up. Looked like it would be a bear to reinstall but it went back pretty easy. What's the problem?

 

Was I just lucky?

 

Must've been, 'cause I know I ain't good.

Getting the pedals in with the cable on it is usually a bear because there's really nothing holding it on unless you do a rubber band or something.  It tends to fall off at the most inopportune moment.  Now that I have access from underneath, that's not an issue, although I must have been in the car/under the car a million times (which is why I'm already getting sore).  Access is tough, and the brake pedal return spring can either be a minor annoyance or a major PITA as it was today.  Unless I missed something, the gas pedal has to be attached before the whole shebang goes in, which means it's constantly in the way.  And general access is tight to everything up there under the dash.  You must have been lucky that day, Ed.

 

Mainly I'm just glad to have her back on the road.  It's been 15-20 degrees above normal, putting it in the upper 70s, and will continue to be so for the next several days.  I don't want to miss this weather.

 

Joe Fortino - Carey's setup uses a different master cylinder that shouldn't have the issue mine had.  I am undecided about switching back because of the difficulty in drilling the necessary holes for mounting it as well as the general desire to avoid ever working on the pedals again, but if I have any more trouble I will go that route.  If you're thinking of having them do the installation, you shouldn't have any worries.

 

Joe Soltice - Thanks for the offer.  Going back to hydraulic should be easy accept for the master cylinder installation.  I left some of the infrastructure (remote reservoir and feed tubing) in place and the slave, slave bracket, and braided steel over rubber hydraulic line are still assembled although removed from the car.  We'll see how it goes.  Oh yeah, PLEASE come to Carlisle this year.  You've stayed away too long.