I have the HP and Torque

I have started some research on a high performance motor. I was referred to a guy in CA that gave me this response to my request. Are the numbers in line? I asked him to build me a motor with about 140HP. He wrote:

Hi Marty, We can use your motor and build it to 2200cc. I would use a bigger stroke crankshaft, a bigger cam and a set of higher flowing cylinder heads. The price for this would be about $3500.00, test run and dynoed. This would be with your smaller carbs and exhaust. A set of 44mm Webers would be about $750.00, and a different exhaust could be $300-$700.00. A deeper oil sump is $90.00, and a heavier clutch and an oil filter system would also be extra. (depending what you have now). Thanks for your inquiry, Dave Greiner

Any thoughts?

Marty

Assuming that's the out-the-door price and it's a reputable shop, I'd say it's fair. You can easily spend three times that and not see a horsepower improvement beyond 140 in a Type I engine.
Ask if they'll stand behind what they do. Is the shop close to you?

It's popular on this site to welcome guys "to the madness". Once you make the decision for more power and torque, you've really made the decision to go over to the dark side. Power costs money, and lots of it. "Welcome to the madness" indeed.

It's pretty tough to know if the quote is legit or not, since it was pretty short on any meaningful specs. I'd have the builder get really specific on what is going in the motor, and then make the determination on whether it represents a good value or not.

A word of caution is in order here. VW guys (me included) tend to come into the hobby "value oriented" (another word for "cheap"), and once you decide you want more than about 100 hp, the price curve starts getting pretty steep. A bigger engine makes a lot more heat, and requires a lot of extra stuff to get rid of that heat: big headers, remote coolers, good cooling tin-- it all costs money. Figure it into the price of the build because you are gonna' need it.

The other broad statement I'd make is: spend money on the heads. It's the first place most budget builders cut, and probably the most important piece of the puzzle. A 1915 with stock heads isn't going to run much better than a stock 1600, but even a 1600 with good heads will get your attention.

I'd talk to a LOT of builders before you buy, and spend some time on the Samba and Shop Talk Forum forums before I turned over my hard earned cash. I'd talk to Pat Downs from CB, Anibel Chico from Chico Performance, and Art Thraen from ACE before I did anything else.

It's exciting, and getting there is at least 2/3 of the fun. Good luck.

get your checkbook out. i have a CB 2110 0n order. base price is 5100 but that includes flywheel, pressure plate, disc and webers. it does not include heater boxes or muffler.
if you want to play you have to pay.

Thanks,

I was referred to this guy by Tiger at A1 who makes the Sidewinder Header that many seem to like. His website is www.proformancemotoring.com. It's not urgent so I will do more research. How about the guy who makes the type-4 Massive. What is the difference? How about heat?

Thanks,

Marty

What Stan said...
Seriously, there are a lot of little things that add to big improvements. My first Type1 engine was a 1776 and it got a better exhaust and bigger carbs initially and as Stan said, THEN the madness began!

I spent an additional $3500+/- on a rebuild of that 1776 and the builder and I think we got it to about 135HP. Lots of cool stuff, big heads, mechanical whiz-bang things I trusted him to 'fold-in'

Money well spent. Get the details explained to you. Keep track of them as you shop. I was fortunate to find a garage where the owner had been a VW buff for a long, long time.

Forget the claimed horsepower numbers. They are really misleading

Many years ago, it was decided for us, that we were not smart enough to understand Torque but we could understand about Horses and how much work they could produce. Thus, Horsepower became the "standard" measurement of engine output. Very misleading but easily understood by the masses.

Torque is your main concern. The more torque you have, and the better torque curve you have makes for more power when you need it.

An engine with peak torque early in the RPM scale can be fun but when you need power at higher RPM's then it falls on it's face.

Likewise, an engine that produces Torque late or higher up in the RPM scale leaves you stranded until you get to those higher RPM numbers.

If your torque curve starts early and peaks late as shown on the printed dyno torque curve, and the torque line angles up as the RPM's increase is usually called a flat torque curve and gives you power through out the RPM's range.

Horsepower is a derived number from Torque. The formula to determine Horsepower is: Torque x RPM divided by 5252.

As an example, a Formula 1 car developes huge horsepower numbers with a steep torque curve. In other words, it developes its power in the higher RPM ranges. That's why they often times have to be pushed after they pit as they have no low end power.

Also, ALL Horsepower and Torque curves will intersect at 5252 RPM's

Maybe this will be helpful.

http://www.cbperformance.com/dyno/dynocharts.html

"since it was pretty short on any meaningful specs. I'd have the builder get really specific on what is going in the motor, and then make the determination on whether it represents a good value or not."

This seems the best advice. I have a 2332 running 44 IDF Webers, acquired in a turn-key Speedster from JPS. The engine was made by GEM VW, and they have a website where you can see what they do. I have a spec sheet from JPS (from GEM, no doubt) listing all the specific things that went into this motor: heads, crank, push rods, nuts and bolts, just about -- it runs a whole page. This mill is supposed to be around 150 HP and has lots of low end torque -- lives best between 2500 and 4500 RPM. It makes my Speedster go pretty well. While I will not pretend to (yet) know what all the things in my engine spec sheet really mean, I do appreciate that it is all spelled out very clearly. The build is "blueprinted", all rotating parts balanced, and the engine does run smooth and well. I could reproduce that spec sheet here for you, if it would help you to understand what goes into a high cc, high output engine. As to costs, you can go to the JPS website and see what the retail $$ differential is between this motor and a "regular" 1600. All the above notwithstanding, seems like $3500 ought to get you most of the way down the road to a kick-ass mo-chine.

As Stan says; it's all in the heads. Also make sure you have a bulletproof and balanced rotating assembly. Those are the basics; after that, good carburetion (Weber or Dellorto dual throats) and free flowing exhaust system and you should be good to go.

Stan,

I am also in the Midwest. I would love to do business with someone local, but do not know where to turn. Most of the VW specialist seems to be out west. Does anyone know engine builders in the Chicago Metro or Suburban area that do high performance VW?

Marty G.

Marty-

I'm in the Peoria area. There's nobody here, and if there was-- they'd be either stuck in the '60s or really slow. California it is....

... but seriously, check out the Samba and STF forums. There's a wealth of information over there.

Yeah, that's pretty much true all over the country - the VW guys from the older days are either dying off, or switched over to working on Harleys or retired (like me!).

Just like automotive machine shops; there used to be five automotive machine shops in this town, and now there is only one. The surprising thing is that the guys working there are young!

Stan's advice about the Samba is good, as well as the Shop Talk Forums. You can also try looking here: http://www.roadhaus.com/shops.html

Can't guarantee anything for your area, but sometimes it works out.

gn

Gordy, that is a great site!
I'll for sure take the link along with me when I make my road trip to British Columbia this June.

A couple of comments. Definately get the 1.5 Qt. sump and do go full flow w/filter. Also, Yes, A1 makes a great header. But for that 1914 I'd just go full flow and put an oval baffle tip on it. Cops don't harrass Speedsters unless you are with their wife. Lot's of people build great 1914s, but a good set of heads. dual webbers or dells and a cam that matches the setup is the key to an affordable powerful boxer. Not a brand name builder. Usually that assurance can have a noteable price tag that may or may not be worth it when you are talking about a pretty common, well refined build like the 1914.

Back in 2003 I started researching the various Speedster kits here in the UK. One thing I wanted was a reliable engine with adequate torque/power. I also have a Caterham 7 with more than adequate torque/power which has gone through several incarnations to get there. I understand the importance of using a reliable engine builder who doesn't use your project as an experiment.

When I started the research I knew nothing about VW air cooled engines. By lurking on forums one name started to surface more often than not in a positive way. I asked questions & my knowledge improved. My engine was built by John Maher http://www.johnmaherracing.co.uk/performancesummaries.htm
& the 1776 type 1 he built produces 126 BHP & 122 ft'lbs torque. Nicely adequate for my Chesil Speedster. However more would be nice as would a 5 speed transmission.

So do the research & buy your engine from someone who knows what they're talking about & can back this up with good after sales service.

Mike, you said that "more would be nice" Not designed to knock your engine choice but:
This is why horsepower ratings give a flase sense of engine superiority. That rated figure of 126 HP is at 6,100 RPM's and the max torque is at 5,000 RPM's. How often are you going to drive that car at 6,100 rev's?? Not often.

My guess is that the torque curve is very steep. That means that torque and horse power are very low through the gears and the engine quits pulling at 5,000 RPM's

Larry

You're up early...... it's 13.20 here in the UK!

I can appreciate where you're coming from but in a light weight car this type of engine works well. The torque curve is reasonably flat & produces a minimum 112 ft/lbs from 3000 to 6000 rpm. However if I were doing it again I'd pile on a few more cc's.

The important thing when choosing an engine builder is that he knows what he's talking about & can deliver a reliable engine. So head work is important along with getting everything as close to the intended tolerances as possible. Also getting this jumbly mass of reciprocating parts properly balanced aids longevity.

Enjoy your day, it's rather grey here at the moment. Definitely not sports car weather!

Mike

As one of our great figures in history said, Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise. So far, I've got 2 out of 3. (Benjamin Franklin, as written in "Poor Richard's Almanac"

I wasn't knocking your engine choice I was just pointing out that most people recognize HP numbers and what really counts is Torque. As previously stated, Horsepower is a derived number gathered from torque.

As you stated, your car is light and probably propels it self rather admirably. I just got done building a 1776 for a friend, no head work, just a basic engine with 8 to 1 compression, a 110 cam and dual 44's He said that when he had the carb's jetted on a dyno, the engine had 110 HP but that was at 5300 RPM's and the 104 pounds feet of torque was maxed out at 5000 RPMs. I built this for is tube framed dunebuggy. To me, torque is low and If I had built that engine for myself, I would have stroked the engine to increase the torque.

A lot of the confusion could be resolved if guys would just plot their gear ratios on a speed/rpm calculator (I think CB's site has one).

With a .89 fourth (stock beetle ratio), and a 3.88 R/P ("freeway flier" ring and pinion), it's going to get pretty scary redlining a speedster at anything north of 5500 RPM. I've got a .82 fourth and a 3.88-- 5500 RPM is stupid-fast. It takes a lot of torque peaking really low to push that kind of gear at freeway speeds, even if the car only weighs 1800 lbs.

Most guys are chasing big H/P numbers at the expense of big torque curves with a peak in the heart of the driving range (3K RPM).

All torque is not equal. For the kind of "pull" most of us got used to with big V8s back in the day-- you need a torque peak about 2000 RPM lower than the average drag-race engine builder wants to give you. I care not if some dude's 2332 makes 250 H/P, if that power peak is at 7000 RPM, because I don't want to be spinning 5000 RPM driving down the interstate, and that's what I'd have to have to use the power up that high.