I WAS Defeated -- belated update

Excellent! Glad you figured it out.

Sounds like maybe a small nut, bolt, or washer fell in there after the last carb rebuild?

Danny,  I hope nothing so bad as a nut.  And did it bang itself to death, and exit?  What was/is it?  Where is it now?  I guess the only sure way to know that all is OK, is to pull the head and have a look.  Or maybe someone has a boroscope, so we can take a peek??  Any arthroscopic surgeons in the house??  Wouldn't such a thing make a bunch of noise?  Come to think of it, I thought I noted something funny sounding as I left the house for the Pumpkin run last fall -- just came back to me now.  a clinking/clacking that went away in a minute.

 

PS, BTW I checked the compression on that cyl today -- was about 120 psi

PS, Danny: No wonder I could not catch you coming off the mountain last fall . . .

 

I'm ready to try again now.

 

;-)

Take a photo of that spark plug. I'd love to see that sucker.

I wonder if the nut/washer/object in question made its way into your exhaust system? Dump that sucker out and see if there is anything in there.

Glad it worked itself out okay,
Ted

Not to be negative here, but an unknown metal object banging up a spark-plug surely wreaked some havoc on the piston top and combustion chamber as well as the plug. I'm not saying it won't run like this (it will, and will maybe run "fine"), but that "fixed" is a relative term. Sticking a borescope down the spark-plug hole (at BDC) will tell you how bad the top of the piston (and maybe the cylinder wall) is. There's no way to know on the combustion chamber unless you pull the head.

 

I'd really, really, really want to know what it was if I was you, but I'm nervous like that. I get REALLY neurotic when I can't find hardware after working on my carbs.

I'm bringing big silver tarp to Carlisle - we can pull that sucker and JB Weld and dings in head/piston.  I have dune buggy that dropped #3 exhaust valve.  Now a valve is stiff metal.  It ruined the head, piston, and I'm sure sent aluminum flakes past the rings to oil pan.  I'll bring my anxiety meds to Carlisle for the worry worts.  DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY.

Stan, I hear ya, man.  That is where the "Oh Dear God!!" thoughts came in.  Certainly, this was not the head of a valve banging around in there, but still, vaporous materials are the only allowed substances, all else bringing nothing but bad news.  That said, it is running OK now, and the compression is about right, I do believe.  I am not averse to dropping the engine and checking the head, but not going to go there two days before the Big Show in PA.  Hopefully, it will last the four days required.  And I like the idea of a boroscope.  If anybody out there has one, and will be in Carlisle, I'm your man.  Please advise.

 

Kelly

Kelly,

Regarding borescopes, I've got two of them... but am going to be about 1000 miles from you this weekend.  You wouldn't need to drop the engine to look down the cylinder with the scope. I'm not sure, but I think Harbor Freight sells an inexpensive version.

I wish you well. Have a good time this weekend.

Kelly, look at Amazon, they sell scopes that plug into your laptops usb port for under $20.00

Art, you're on the money. Kelly, buy one like this, it's only 10mm in diameter, with a 6 ft. cord: http://www.amazon.com/Small-bo...F1UMJ8/ref=pd_cp_p_3

 

Other ones were larger diameter, this one should fit.

 

Drive it and don't worry, if it blows up leave it at Alan's. I would definitely want to know like Stan and I would have replaced the plug. But for now just drive it. I'd like to know the compression in all the other cylinders.

If the compression's ok and closely matches the other cylinders, you might have gotten lucky and it won't need anything requiring machine work or major part replacement. However, it probably did put divots in the head and piston that at the very least should have the high spots sanded down to avoid detonation.

Kelly, I just ordered a 7mm borescope that will be here TOMORROW. I'll bring to Carlisle. If we attach a tiny mirror, we'll be able to see the valves and head as well. $20 bucks.....if it works, fine, if not, I don't care.

Danny,

 

I love you, man.  This is cool stuff.

 

As to detonation from (presumably) small dents in the piston -- I had not thought of that, but seems to sorta make sense.  Hope this is not going on.

 

Maybe they would have boroscopes at the flea market -?-  We'll see.

 

Counting down -- two days.

 

Kelly

And if it doesn't work, maybe you could use it for low-budget colonoscopies?

 

I would have at least replaced the beat-up plug before continued driving.  You don't leave til Thursday and tomorrow is only Wednesday, so why not throw in a new plug, just to be sure??

I can see it now......everything looks fine, but your piston has some pitting.....

There is more to tell --- not all good.  As mentioned, the engine runs better than it did after the Pumpkin Run, but that really is not saying much.  Having fire in all four holes helps a lot, but the engine is running rough at idle, has piss poor transition throttle, pops and bucks at low effort, and twisting the idle screw and two mixture jets on the driver's side carb have no effect on the engine idling at all.  Something is for-sure FUBAR.  I tried to balance the carbs, and had little luck.  Inspected all idle jets (absolutely LOVE the hex-head idle jet holders -- worth every penny), and found a teeny, tiny spec on one of them.  Again, the compression in the cylinder w/ the bent up plug was about 120 psi, as was one other cyl on the other side.  Valves all adjusted and in good order.  I could change out that plug, but I am sure it is working.  Notwithstanding all of the above, when I go out for test ride, and mash it, it runs strong and long.  Running at high revs, full throttle on the main jet circuit appears to have no problem at all.

 

Plan: pull that bent plug and look at it again -- has had about five miles on it since it was un-bent and re-installed, some of it quite "spirited".  Check the timing.  Button it up and drive it to Carlisle and see what the assembled cognosci have to say. Try the boroscope thing. Hope it does not explode in the meantime;  I figure an engine drop and a partial tear-down (remove the heads) are in my future.

And so to bed soon.  The plug was just pulled and looked fine, nice tan insulator, just a little bunged up around the edges.  Note: all the other plugs looked about right too, when they were checked  yesterday. Timing checked, and is AOK.

 

Heading out tomorrow to Carlisle, hope to see many of the old hands and get a better handle on WTF is going on here.  I have about 11K mi now, and it says here I got this car in '07.  In that time it has run well I'd say about 15% of the time.  When it runs strong and smooth, it is a dream come true, and I am a very happy man.  All other times with the coughing, popping and jerking, it is a serious trial on my nerves, as if I am waiting for a bomb to drop. I hope I make it tomorrow -- wish me luck.  I'll probably be in a foul mood after 3+ hrs of rough running, so might need more than the normal dose of anesthesia.  Ever the optimist, I am still looking fwd to happier times.  I'm telling you, a Suby transplant sounds like a REALLY good idea about now.

Good luck, Kelly. Let's park our cars next to each other (if I actually bring mine). The Suby's in, and the wiring (and a fair amount of other stuff) still needs doing. We'll pull them both apart and you can see what you'd be getting into, and I'll see what I'm already missing.

 

(BTW, I still have my old 1500 (?) SP, which ran pretty good when I pulled her. I could throw it in the back of my truck if you want as a spare "get around" engine for ye).

I suspect that removing the manifold and carb (separately) on the troublesome side, then replacing with either new gaskets or old gaskets and Permatex Blue would work wonders for you.  You could even do that in less than an hour in the Hotel parking lot.

Gordon, et al.,

 

First: Where the F were you, MGM?  Missed ya this week end.  Sorry you could not make it.

 

Second:  The car was running so poorly Thurs Am when I went to meet Cory and Jeni, that I just turned it around and took it home.  Drove the Mazda to Carlisle, and had a fine time anyway.

 

Third: I got home around 3:00 this PM, and looked into things a bit.  left side carb did seem a little loose, or mayb just not firmly seated.  Tightened the two nuts, and one had a lot to give there.  The forward nut at lower manifold is a beeatch to get to.  May need to modify an open end to manage actually turning that sucker.  After tightening, fired it up, and really not much difference. Still nothing good on the left side, no idle and rough as hell.  Tried the starter fluid spray test, and that was dramatic.  No doubt there is a leak in there.  So that is where I am at the moment.  I have other stuff to do tonight, so will return to this tomorrow. Plan B will be executed:  lift the carb/manifold and see what's what.  I picked up gaskets and some further lore from experts at Carlisle about what all to do to re-fit a good seal.  Also, will get a boroscope and try to go have a closer look all around there and even inside that cylinder.  So stay tuned.

 

Question for the above mentioned experts:  what's better, the basic stock metal gaskets, or the fiber ones?  I have some of each.  Looks like fiber is what was used originally, and is there now. These may need to be trimmed a bit to fit properly -- no biggie, I 'spose.

PS:

 

Plan C would be executed if Plan B shows up something truly broken in there -- although I am very uncertain about what that would/could be.  That would be an engine-ectomy, and remove the head, I guess.  I'm trying (hoping) not to have to go there.  Pray for me . . .

PPS to Gordon:  The carb/manifold gasket in there now is brand new from my R&R carb rebuild last fall, and one of those extra thick jobbies.  All nuts there nicely snug.  I'm told that the carb and manifold can be extracted as one piece.  What is the reason not to do it that way?

Well, one reason is to be sure that there is no leak between the carb and manifold.

 

If it were mine, I would pull BOTH the carb and the manifold and install new gaskets between them.  

 

As you stated up above, it failed the carb cleaner spray test, so just pull everything apart, install new gaskets (thick or thin, I don't care as long as they're fiber, not metal).  If you really wanna be sure of a seal, use the Permatex Copper or Permatex Black - just a thin coat, almost as if you sprayed it on.

 

On Carlisle, yeah, the overall level of debauchery is subdued with me and Jimbo there, isn't it?

VW used the metal intake manifold gaskets to heat the intake tract as much as possible; with the long distance the air/fuel mixture has to travel in a centrally mounted carburetor, the warmer the manifold is, the less fuel will end up condensed on the intake manifold walls.

 

With dual carburetors being much closer to the heads,  the object is to somewhat insulate the carburetors from the heat of the heads, so the paper/fiber (whatever the heck they are) gaskets are used. Don't forget to trim the new gaskets to the port shape if the heads have been ported. Yoda out.

You guys have bruised my brain.  Lights out

Did not get too much done today, as I had outdoor gardening chores to do on such a fine (superlative) weather day.  However, Cory did bring along a 7 mm digital boroscope from Danny P. and we hooked that up and went snooping into the depths of #3, or is it #4??.  Anyway what we saw was a piston top that was a little pinged, I guess.  Camera resolution was low, so hard to say for certain.  Cyl walls looked very good.  Looked into another cyl on other side as a reference, and it was similar in many respects, but looked somewhat smoother and cleaner, I'll admit.  Bottom line, from my PoV, is that all is good enough in the combustion chamber, and what needs doing is to seal the manifold.  Certainly, there was no hint of any foreign object yet remaining inside the cyl. Hope to work out the R&R and gasket update tomorrow.  

Some pics w/ Danny P.'s digital borescope.  The cyl in question looks like it has some dings, but is not gross by any means. Can't get a view of the head.  As of now, I'm OK w/ running w/ this, given that I can seal the vacuum leak and get back to cruising.  No progress today on that front.

Have you figured out what went through it? Once you get it up and running, a compression test will quickly tell you if everything is alright. If it is, run it. I've heard of a number of engines over the years passing a washer or nut or ??? with no ill effects, and I'm betting it will be fine after you get the intake leak fixed. If detonation becomes a problem, then sanding the piston top and combustion chamber face to remove the sharp edges should make it all good. It's a little bit of work (the head has to come off) but not huge in the grand scheme of things.

 

If the compression test shows something wrong, a leakdown test will give a better idea; air escaping into the case will indicate a damaged/broken ring or cylinder wall damage and air through the carb or exhaust points to a valve/seat issue.

This used to be a problem on older Solex !bbl's....   The accelerator pump discharge nozzle, after many rebuilds, would become loose and fall into the carb.....   Being brass, they normally caused little damage.....    Just a thought...

I'll bet Leon's solved it!

Nah.  Kelly's running Weber 2bbls.

Right. Says so in his first post....

Drat!!!!!

I did run a compression test, and it registers good at ~ 120 psi.  Did not do the leak down -- probably should try that.  Again, no action on the intake gasket front today -- too many appointments and running around getting ready for several days at the beach.

OK, back from the beach now, maybe begin the teardown tonight.

So, ALB, aka Yodda: thanks for the reasoned explanation about the gaskets, and why to use one or the other.  I believe I'll use the fibrous ones, as I am running dual Webers, making sure that the openings are correct size.  Just wanted to say thanks for that bit of wisdom.

You get it figured out?