I was looking at the pics of a recent build from Rod Emory and was curious what the two parts are that he installed in front of the battery that I circled in red. I'm guessing the left one is used for a hydraulic suspension system and the right is a heater? Does anyone know?
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Looks like that to me too.
That's an electric retro-fit AC system for a 911.
It would be nice if it generates heat as well. But if it's the same one mentioned in this article, it sounds like it doesn't do heat. https://www.classicretrofit.co...sche-911-air-con-faq
^^What he said^^ Inside the upper red outline is the electric AC compressor pump. Inside the lower red square is the blower and air distribution box. The dryer is somewhere in there, too. It's a very nifty way to install AC on a rear engine car as all the compressor plumbing stays up front and doesn't have to go the length of the car and back. The electric AC is tried and true; it's in every Prius, Bolt, Volt, hybrid and EV on the planet.
On this install the blower/air dist. box location will keep the system fairly quiet vs an under dash unit, and result in a much cleaner cabin as you only need space for vents and controls (a couple of knobs).
How many watts does it take to run this AC ?
Nice, but I like mine better, and it didn't come close to $4K. On the other hand, mine took a little longer than 4 hours to install, and still needs an AC compressor on the engine. 
Here is a million page thread on doing a 911 with electric AC , started by the guy who is making the kits ,
@imperial posted:How many watts does it take to run this AC ?
I think it's around 35-40 amps @12 volts to run the compressor. It probably varies with demand. They're very efficient, and if you have at least a 100 amp alternator you'll probably be just fine. In my poo-poo Prius it even runs when the engine is off at traffic lights with no ill effects.
@JMM (Michael) posted:I think it's around 35-40 amps @12 volts to run the compressor. It probably varies with demand. They're very efficient, and if you have at least a 100 amp alternator you'll probably be just fine. In my poo-poo Prius it even runs when the engine is off at traffic lights with no ill effects.
Honestly, I don't understand why all A/C compressors aren't electric and all power steering hydraulic. Everything about the A/C system works better when the compressor is run at a constant speed.
I can't believe how small the whole system is in the Prius and it's so cold in there you could hang meat.
Evidently the compressor has an ECU that will cut back the amperage used at idle. One of the commenters said he was running it with a 75 amp alternator.
I wouldn't try it with less than a 90 amp alternator, myself. The 90 amp EMPI ones are junk. Go ahead and spring for a Compu-Fire alternator. They are reworked before they sell them.
@Marty Grzynkowicz Alfa kit for AC is pretty neat.
That’s is interesting Ray. I already went with the UK Alfaholics AC system. Lots of fabrication needed but fingers crossed it does what it’s supposed to. https://www.alfaholics.com/rac...conditioning-system/
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@Stan Galat posted:....Honestly, I don't understand why all A/C compressors aren't electric...
Which got me thinking.
In politics, the answer to almost any question is 'follow the money'.
With cars today, it's 'follow the EPA fuel economy numbers'.
Frinstance, this is why all power steering is electric today and why manual gearboxes are suddenly 'unpopular' (even though they disappear from dealers' showrooms usually within 48 hours of one showing up).
Electric A/C would require a bigger alternator, more drag on the engine, and lower fuel economy numbers. The alternator would be engaged all of the time, even when the A/C is off.
Some poking around at an EPA website shows the current test 'cycles' require A/C be on some of the time (but not all of the time). And apparently, before about 2008, A/C could be left off for the tests.
So, I think mechanical A/C still means better average EPA numbers, and we all know who's driving the bus these days.
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I'd agree... except that's not the way alternators work.
The load is on an alternator when there is load on the battery, otherwise it's just freewheeling (mostly). A 150a alternator with 20a of load on it doesn't take any more gas to drive than a 90a alternator with 20a of load on it. The load only comes in when the compressor kicks on, and the battery acts as a something of a damper between the power generation (the alternator) and the load (the compressor).
Regardless, there is the performance of the A/C system to keep in mind as well. An A/C compressor running at a speed (or on/off cycle) variable to the load on the system, as opposed to the speed of the engine can perform much more efficiently.
The efficiency gains available with an electric compressor far outstrip what is available with an electric steering rack. The only reason to run electric steering is so that the ECU can play with what the rack does - lane departure corrections, auto-pilot, etc. All the manufacturers and magazines tell us that the conversion to electric power steering was done for fuel economy - but like start/stop, it only works to gig the EPA numbers. I really doubt it makes any difference in the real world.
I think you're onto something Mitch.
Take it one step further. How cheap can a manufacturer build a car, meet CAFE numbers, and still turn a profit?
Electric AC in plug ins and hybrids makes sense, but not in the ICE world. It's both cheaper and easier to use a conventional compressor.
The cars are already heavier with all the airbags and BS electronic "safety features". Too many airbags, black boxes, ABS, lane change warning, back up warning, follow too closely warning, automatic braking, etc. ad nauseum.
If a feature isn't required, makes the car meet EPA standards, desired by customers, or makes more profit they have no motivation to add it.
@DannyP posted:Electric AC in plug ins and hybrids makes sense, but not in the ICE world. It's both cheaper and easier to use a conventional compressor.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Open drive compressors leak at the drive seal. Hermetic compressors have no drive seal to leak. A compressor on the engine means rubber hoses (which leak) will be needed. A compressor fixed to the body doesn't. A "conventional" compressor runs at the speed of the engine, whatever that is. An electric compressor can run at the speed (or amount of time) it needs to handle the load.
Packaging is better, leak resistance is better, and performance is better.
I'm generally not a fan of added complexity - but it's really just better, and simpler, at least to my way of looking at it.
The EPA is not just concerned with fuel efficiency - they're also crawling around in the HVAC world, because the gasses we use have GWP (global warming potential) numbers many times greater than CO2 (R134a's number is 1300).
Severely limiting the total refrigerant charge in the A/C in your car will mean an electric compressor. There's no other way to do it. The change is minor in the automotive world. The changes coming in your supermarket will put everybody not named Kroger, WalMart, or Albertson's out of the grocery business.
are there any ICE powered cars that have electric AC ?
and does electric AC use R134a refrigerant ?
thanks for the info
This is a little off the subject and a complaint. I have a 2017 GMC All Terrain (4/4) Canyon. Like this GMC better than the last 3 I've had and worn out. But this is really stupid. The electric motor for the power steering is placed right in the middle at the lowest point of the frame crossmember between the trans and engine. Even the CHEESEY optional skid plate doesn't protect it. The first time, climbing over a few rocks in a Mexico riverbed, I tore off the wiring and disabled the power steering. Let me tell you, It is a BEAST to steer without power. Worse than a mechanical system. The second time I destroyed the motor because of a rock punching up in there again ! $1600.00 later it is working again. Now I have an extension welded to the skid plate that will have to be torched off to do any repairs around there. Maneuvering a Pickup w/o power steering in a rocky riverbed is terrible. I let my Wife try to steer just to give her the experience of what it's like. She only weighs 115 #. Is actually pretty strong for her size but absolutely could not steer the truck. Of course going straight only, on paved road and not turning, she could accomplish, but still not with out a lot of difficulty ! Question.......
Is Rack and Pinion steering in my Spyder going to be easier than a standard VW Gear box ? Let me know. I always thought it was hard to steer my Speedster and considered adding an in-line electric power steering unit. They were $800.00 back in 2016.
BRUCE
@imperial posted:are there any ICE powered cars that have electric AC ?
and does electric AC use R134a refrigerant ?
thanks for the info
There may be others, but a Cadillac DTS or DeVille from the early 2000s has electric A/C.
They use R134a, but no new car will, because the Global Warming Potential number of R134a is 1300 (1300x the GWP of CO2), rather than the R1234yf refrigerant GWP of 4.
As with most new refrigerants, R1234yf is flammable. Welcome to the tradeoffs.
@aircooled your Spyder weighs 1/3 of your truck & the weight over your front wheels will be about 1/5 what's on the truck so come on.
Stan, I'm sure you're correct about the electric A/C.
Bruce, your Suby Spyder will probably weigh about 1600 pounds or so, maybe 1500 pounds(the weight of my type1 550), and about 45% of that is on the front wheels. The tires are usually 185/65R15 and I have zero problem with steering effort with a steering box. I have no knowledge of the effort for the rack you will use, and I believe nobody has fitted one to a Spyder yet.
Danny...I was looking in some old books and found that the Golf had a 2.8 to 1 ratio. I can't remember what a VW box is but it seems more like 3 to 1. Yes, the Spyder should be lighter in the front over a Speedster so that would compensate for the ratio to some extent. I will certainly find out. I'd like to use the banjo steering wheel. It's about an inch larger than the Nardi style so that would produce a little more leverage as well. Then again, the Nardi being a little smaller will make it a little easier to slide my big butt under it ! Perhaps a quick disconnect steering wheel would be the answer. I do plan on basically standing on the seat to get in and out and not opening the door. A lot of steering caster isn't a help either......Bruce
The rack that will be going in your Spyder is actually from a European-only Polo. If you're agile enough to not open the door you should be fine for steering effort.
I always open the door and step on the side of the seat/rocker panel area. I do believe this has made my seats hold up for 20 years(originally got my roller in 2002).
@aircooled Bruce wrote:
"Then again, the Nardi being a little smaller will make it a little easier to slide my big butt under it !"
@DannyP posted:The rack that will be going in your Spyder is actually from a European-only Polo.
Once again - listen to Danny. I've got a traditionally laid out rack from a domestic Golf. The steering is more precise than in either of my two worm-gear steered speedsters, but the tie-rod length is not equal, so I get bump-steer, etc.
The kit Danny ordered (going on Rick's car) is the way to go.
I'd not try to get Greg to reinvent the wheel here. You've waited a ridiculous amount of time for a car that's finally being built. I'd go with the parts that are available, don't need to be reengineered, and won't push you to the back of the line.
Alternatively, you can make this a 10 year process instead of 5, and still end up with the Polo rack.
That's the plan Stan ! I do value Danny's opinions based on his experiences as well as yours. Since my project is now rolling, I don't want to do anything that will slow it down unless it's important. By the way, I really like your space-saver wheels. Why ? I don't know, but they will look very cool and different on your car. You seem to like the brushed or Matt finish on them. Me ? I would have polished them to a dazzling brilliance and trimmed them out with simple black oxide lugs. But, as you and others have said...."you do you" ! In the end, they all come out really great.........Bruce
