IM, SAW and Burger King

There was this crazy garage across from where I was having lunch in Vancouver, overflowing with the coolest looking cars I'd ever seen. I walked on over and met Henry at Intermeccanica.

Then I stumbled onto this site and I've been reading assorted opinions, rants and buttoned-up automotive wisdom for over a year now. Iit's been this site and this community that has convinced that a 356 is missing from my drive way.

I am looking for a daily driver that is quick, handles well and is easy to maintain. I love Henry's build quality and the ability to totally customize your car, but I've driven mid engine cars for years and I love the idea of the water-cooled mid-engine for
reliability and handling.


Are the SAW's that much better ? Does maintaining the historical accuracy of the rear engine layout and seat really matter ?
Am I crazy to even consider shopping out of town with IM right here ?

I'm ready to spend, so any opinions, rants and buttoned-up automotive wisdom would be greatly appreciated....


Gz

John,

Henry at IM has been around for quite some time and does a fantastic job of custom building a speedster to an individules personal taste.

Also look into the manufactures listed within this forum.
In my personal opinion, all of the speedster manufactures produce a fine product.

Yes, most agree a mid engine car seems to be the "better mouse trap", currently there are only a few of the mid engines out on the roads. Their owners feel they are tops .

Historical accuracy of the rear engine speedster is totally up to you, some enjoy the accurate detail and enjoy adding the finest details to their speedster.
Some also choose to go with an outlaw look and big Type 1 motor or go with the power of the Raby Type IV motor as I have . On the other hand, I also like the bone stock original look.

As with any major purchase, it's in your best interest to check out the available products in detail.
With the Knotts show and Carlisle shows coming up in April and May, this will be an excellent time and opportunity to see close up all that is available.

Ask questions both the manufactures and current speedster owners including the pro's and con's of the extras you may want to incorporate into your speedster.

Be sure that you also look into the aspect of importing a speedster into Canada.

Most importantly, all of the individules here on the SOC are always willing to help out, enjoy this extended family !

Be sure that you also look into the aspect of importing a speedster into Canada. This is important and something that you need to research, since you live in Canada. As for which one is better??? I think the answer isn't really one being better then the other, but more of a question.

Have you ever driven an aircooled vw engine, do you know that the little things won't bother you with this engine? How much do you really plan to drive the car? Having an IM living right there would be really nice and getting it worked on shouldn't be any real problem. Of course the SAW car can get worked on just as easily, because the mechanicals are easily accesible by repair shops. Do you have any aspirations of driving the car long distances?

I owned a used IM and it was a very nice car, but because of my location in the middle of Iowa and how I want to use the car, I decided to sell it and buy a new SAW.

Re: handling - IM's use a tubular frame that allows the engine/transaxle to be moved forward almost three inches. This improves the weight distribution and gives superior handling qualities with the IRS (as opposed to swing-axle) transaxles. To further improve handling Henry offers HD rear torsion bars, front and rear anti-sway bars, rack and pinion steering, and several shock options (Koni, Bilstein, KYB, etc.)

A Porsche 901 5-speed transaxle is also an option.

George wrote:

"IM's use a tubular frame that allows the engine/transaxle to be moved forward almost three inches."

OK, I've been reading this same thing for a while now, and I can't for the life of me figure out how he does it AND still keep the wheels centered in the wheel wells.

Is the body 3" shorter between the rear door edge and the wheel well? I know that IM's rear wheel wells are a different shape (flatter on the top) than CMC's and VS bodies - is that where the difference in length is achieved? Or;

Are the drive shafts angled slightly rearward? (I don't think so, as I would have spotted that in some pictures, somewhere)

How is this done?

Gordon
One "Curious Speedstah Guy" in Beaufort

It is really very simple.

A simple complexity!

Dale, Bruce...... thank you for such a simple and understandable explanation


GClarke "The vacaville Guy"

John, call Steve at SAW. He is great to talk to. However, unless I misunderstood him at some point, the hassle of exporting a car to Canada, since they are represented as current year manufactured on the MSO, is more than he wants to put up with.

Gordo and Gary,

I thought it was simple too.

It's much like one of those hidden art pictures where you are drawn to one object and never really see the waterfall hidden in the background. Once you see the wtaerfall the whole picture comes into focus. I think it's like an IM Optical Collusion.

gordon, eng tans fwd. wheels stay put. axle shaft angle changes.

IM uses the IRS with the double CV joints allowing everything except the wheels to move forward. This is designed into the frame designed by Frank Reisner.

John ( and gang ):

I spoke to Steve at SAW about the Canadian import issues and he had to turn someone down before Christmas, but he has a few new ideas that we were kicking around a few weeks ago. My wife is from Philly, so perhaps her folks are interested in a new Cabriolet D...

I like the idea of a water cooled modern engine since I'm not much of a tinkerer, or more specifically I have enough other long term tinker-type projects, so my goal for the vehicle is to keep it simple.

I have to say I love the IM's. I went to VS in the fall to take a test drive. They let me sit in the passenger seat while we went around the block, but I didn't get to drive... Steve and Henry have both been equally great though. I need to get out to SAW, but the idea of going to one of the car shows is very interesting way of checking them all out. A drive is still required. Ideally I want to place an order soon as the Vancouver convertible season is a bit on the short side. Longer than in the east, but too short none the less.


Are the water cooled engines really that much better ?

Gz

Okay, I'm going to chime in here and give my two cents worth. IM's are the Mercedes of replicas...beautfully made, but with those terrible carburetors. I like air cooled motors, but HATE carburetors. If I had the choice between a SAW and an IM I'd buy the SAW, even though I live fairly close to the IM site.
If you like to tinker, then carbs are fine. The trouble with carbs, linkage etc., is that there always seems to be something that is not set up right. I know that some of you have carbs and drive thousands of miles without a hick-up. Good for you!
If you like to get in your cars and just drive, then carbs just plain suck. I know that some of you guys will disagree with me, but after owning an IM with 40 Webers and 44 Webers...no more carbs for me.
I think that sooner or later Henry will have to go with fuel injection or with a different type of motor, as SAW did.
Ron

"Are the water cooled engines really that much better ?"

Of course they are...LOL But as Ron pointed out you get, fuel injection, and not the slap on kind.

Now if you are thinking small displacement then the old aircooled engines will last a very long time. But larger displacement, dual carbs, and other things make a very simple engine more complex.

Dale wrote:
"IM uses the IRS with the double CV joints allowing everything except the wheels to move forward. This is designed into the frame designed by Frank Reisner."

Others supported this statement (or at least the overall simplicity of Life, the Universe and Everything).

Nice.....I understand the concept, and I have an IRS rear end with double CV joints on my car, too, but if that's the case, then the shots of the undercarriage of an IM (and there are several in the Photo section) should show the drive shafts at a front-to-rear angle to the wheels and transmission, and they don't. Not to mention that a constant angle like that would induce more wear into the CV joints (and yes, I understand how CV joints work - I even know the difference between the original Citroen and Auto Union versions).

My question is this: If the body is the same length as a VS or CMC body (from IM's website, the wheelbase is 83.75 inches, same as my CMC), with the wheel wells placed aproximately the same (starting about 7" from the door rear edge), and the wheels are in the approximate same place, and the drive shafts are straight (front-to-back) from Tranny to wheels, and the transaxle is exactly the same as everyone else's, how the hell do they put the transmission and engine three inches farther forward than everyone else? It's not that I don't believe it, I simply can't see how it's done, that's all.......

gn

Well said Jim.

Hey Gordon. Check it out with your tape measure on that Newton car.

With Cosmic Regards,
Jim

If I was up there, I would.

Gordon,

You're probably just not looking at the right pictures of IMs. The drive shaft angle IS different. I'm sure there is additional side loading on the CV joints, but I think that would be a small price to pay for what is gained. The neat part of the design is that there is so much space between the doghouse and the firewall on a pan-based car, more than enough to slide the whole deal forward- and give more room for the exhaust, etc. out back (besides the whole weight bias thing).

Cool Q Gordon. That's what I meant about staring at a picture and not seeing it... right there.

Stan:

You're absolutely right - I hadn't yet found a good picture at the right angle. I just found a really good lift shot under Bob Carley's section (dsc00016) which clearly shows the angle front-to-back. It's not all that much, but then 3 inches displacement on an arc of 22+ inches along the drive shaft really isn't all that much for the CV joints to take care of - Heck! They handle more than that just with up and down motion, don't they!!

Soooooo..... I stand corrected (and educated, on my own) that IM's have a more forward engine/tranny placement - pretty neat feat, when you think about it!! Moving it forward to shift the weight, but you don't lose anything from the cockpit space or the wheelbase - I'm impressed!!

Sorry I posted the question - should have looked a little harder through the Photo section first, but I thought folks would have a ready answer and I got lazy.

'Nite all!

Gordon

Oh! And for all you Galactic Hitch-hikers: "Thanks for all the fish"
(Jim Webby should get that joke, if nobody else does....)

Veeeeerrry interesting.

Hmmmmm,

I'm leaning towards the Intermeccania, written in large friendly letters across the back, due to the original styling and also due to the location. We don't highway drive much here in British California, it's a freeway-free zone, and the local drivers are often on the cautious side. I have lived in LA and Toronto, where highway driving is more the norm, so I was thinking about the 140 hp motor with a freeway flyer set up just in case.

I did have a long chat with Steve from SAW today and if do go that way would probably go for the 165 hp engine. Not many seat sales between Vanvouver and Knoxville, but I'm hoping to get up there this month. I do like the idea of a 5 speed with good brakes.


Now, if Henry would build a water cooled rear engine D, that would be just fine by me.

Gz

Gz, (John)

I'm having an IM Speedster built to similar specs you just mentioned. I will be up there in early March for a 2/3ds built check. I'll send you the days I'll be at IM if you want to come and see one in the process of being built. Also, I think another member has a silver Speedster that should be getting close to the door by then.

Jim

My two cents worth?

It's in the driver's needs and desires that the choice is made. With all due respect to Steve and Hoss, I think the claim that a SubySawster is "better" is not the issue. If it was, then I think that an IM with a Fuel Injected 911 is "better". And for MY use a 2110 IM is better. For Steve, it's the opposite.

I think, that it comes down to what your usage is, what you deem to be a year round car, and your passion for aircooled engines. Steve and I have discussed this as we were in the market together. He lives north, and is looking for a true all weather, commuter/sports car/356/good heat and air. I completely "Get" why Steve made his choice for SAW and it is an excellent choice for Steve. For me? I wanted a Speedster, and an air-cooled one at that. I happen to like the sound of the T-1 with Webers and I understand that they require maint. My thing is that I like the original Speedsters, but want something faster, better, and yet something that stays true to the heritage (aircooled.

I have driven the equivlent of coast to coast in an air cooled VS in the past 11 months. I am sure that The Sawsters will do it in more comfort and ease. But, I am just saying, that with a nice solid well built T-1, even in the "strokers" that you can go coast to coast. I will be this spring in a Mercedes (Ron's words) quaility aircooled Intermeccanica Speedster. That, for me, is the best car. But one shoe does not fit all.

I think your choice should be a personal one, and not driven by "the what's better agruement". They are all "better" in their own way. I would take a solid VS coast to coast again. A choice should include a personal evaluation of how much you want to spend. Do you want the whole air cooled experience, or are you seeking a great commuter/road car?

They all are better. VSs. Kits. JPSs, home builts, Becks, TRs, Subys, and for me, an IM. Just figure out which one is "Better" for you (not for someone else!).

John, let me know when you are coming to Knoxville and perhaps we can hook up at SAW. My car will probably be there so that you will have a "finished" one to look at.
John H

Depending on when you go, my car will be in some state of build?

Gordon,

I was as confused as you. But then I just figured he used his "shrinky-ray" on the body like I probably would . . . .

As for the axle angle, I think that they're even more severe in the 914 Renegades in order to accomodate the Chevy V8's, aren't they? And they mostly use the stock CV joints, although there is probably an "option" for extended axles/universal joints, whatever on the build sheet.

I guess if the angle doesn't hurt under the strain of the V8 torgue, it's no big deal with a "built" VW. Maybe?

Tom:

The two 914/V-8 conversions I've seen didn't move the tranny at all - the V-8 (with the conversion kit from V-8 Archie) just squeezed in there, with the short nose water pump on the Chevy engine (which were both small block 302's). I believe both had beefier drive shafts (V-8 Archie has those, too) and the shaft angles were pretty shallow.

My experience with CV joint axles has shown that the inner joints wear out about half as fast as the outers, which have to endure a LOT more flexing, but that within the "normal" swing of the associated suspension even the outers are only flexing about 50% of their max design amount. The six-ball-in-two-races design is truly slick in its' ability to transmit power smoothly through up to 60 degrees (sometimes more) of flex.

Hey! You should go to Carlisle this Spring......can you spare the time?

gn

"You're absolutely right - I hadn't yet found a good picture at the right angle. I just found a really good lift shot under Bob Carley's section (dsc00016) which clearly shows the angle front-to-back."

Yes, that is a nice set-up, and I do miss that car.

Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hey Bob! It's great hearing from you. Are you going to come to Carlisle? Maybe you can help me drink Mike's beer.
John H
ps. that setup sure looks different from mine.

Hi, John. Good to hear from you also. How's the hat? Maybe it's the rain we are having up here melting some of the snow, but I just felt like dropping in today and actually saying something, especially after I saw my name mentioned.

I think about Carlisle quite a lot and would like to make the trip, but without a speedster I'd feel a little out of place. The best I could do right now would be a '91 Miata.

I'll see how it goes - I have such nice memories of last year. Beer and egg sandwiches.....

Take care.

Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nice penny loafers and nice photos John!!...

IM also does a coach program I think. They build the car and you supply the motor trans. My IM was built that way and shipped to Toronto where the 911 was put in. But IM built it to accept the 911/901.

I wonder if Henry could build you a coach version set up to accept a Suby?

Brian

Oh my, that is a great idea. I've never thought about that as a possiblity. It would be the best of both worlds. Since I like the IM bodywork and the SAW drivetrain....

CB Performance builds all of the VW type 1 engines for IM; if you wsnt an EFI engine instead of carburetors Pat can include that in the build.

Personally, I don't un derstand why so many people have trouble with dual carbs; if they are clean, properly set up and jetted, fuel pressure is correct, a good linkage installed, and good air and fuel filtration used then they almost never cause any problems. Contrary to popular belief once they are synchronized they tend to stay in sync.

Note that the butterflies on an EFI system have to be synchronized, just like those on dual carbs.

Finally, it's fairly simple to trouble shoot and do a roadside fix with a carb problem, but if you have problems with EFI it's probably time for the tow truck.

George wrote: "Personally, I don't understand why so many people have trouble with dual carbs; if they are clean, properly set up and jetted, fuel pressure is correct, a good linkage installed, and good air and fuel filtration used then they almost never cause any problems."

When you put it like that, it's actually pretty easy to understand why so many struggle with dual carburetors.

Jim :

I'd love to check out your vehicle at IM when you are in town, I have many questions. I can make it just about any day with a little bit of warning.

Whether I go IM or SAW I'm trying to sort out what my build options would be. I was at IM for a few minutes the other day talking to Henry, - is your car the black one or the ruby red ? I'm leaning towards to red for my own vehical. I've been grabbing frames from everyone's cars when they post them to see what the best colour combinations would be.

Funny thing about speedsters, they always look better in person than they do in photographs so I find it hard to show pictures to my friends to explain what I'm thinking of doing. When I discuss what the cars are all about some people get the replica car thing and others just don't.

Gz