I had a '72 914 1.7L for about 11 years. Stock it had like 76 HP - I swap out P&C to 2L displacement, added dual Webers, and Bursch exhaust - so maybe 101 HP. With original engine I was happy with stock brakes (I swapped steel 5.5" wheels to 2L Fuchs with Michelin XAS radial). I left the disc brakes stock but went to stainless steel covered brake lines and a larger displacement 911 19mm master cylinder (stock was 17mm). At the time that seemed like a significant improvement to me. Al Gore hadn't fully invented internet then so didn't have it to research upgrades. I posted a larger VW bug 20.3mm master cylinder in another post - Although EMPI it has good ratings. $35 on Amazon - It would be a great upgrade at same time. Result firm pedal with less foot pressure need.
Phil I read a lot on brakes at one time and I found perception and facts are far apart.
Sounds a lot like anecdotal treatments in drug therapy. 
Outside of purist... You have a 944/Type I rear with VW brakes. The rear cannot be responsible for much stopping in any case. Improving the front is all that really matters. IMHO
Phil IM356D posted:Stan. Here in coastal VA I place the hard top and drive all winter. Think I can install the calipers, pads, SS brake lines, change the brake fluids in a morning. Just have to bribe my daughter to sit there and pump on the brake pedal.
Now you're just showing off, Phil. 
Yeah We are dying here to drive ours more than 6 months
Henry uses the 19mm master cylinder. I believe the 914-4 came with a 17mm master. That may be why the effort is so high. I'm hoping that with larger pistons the effort will be less. Pedal travel obviously will be a bit longer. I can always go to the 20.3 master if travel is too long. I'm thinking its going to be just about right with the current 19mm master.
I had a 1973 914-4 sport model with the 2.0. Man I loved that car. I traded the car to Jake Raby for a nice transmission with a Quaife LSD. Stupid.
ok. Its finally done. Whole thing cost me less than $300. Most expensive thing were the pads. I spent $125 on Porterfield pads. $90 for the rebuilt ATE BMW 320i calipers and $80 for machine shop. Since I'm the only one who has driven the car, I'm the only one who can really appreciate the difference in braking. It really is like stepping out of an antique car into a modern one. I know the guys with 911 brakes have nice brakes but they are not any nicer than these. BMW 320i calipers have the same piston size as the older (late 60s, early 70s) 911 brakes but the 320i pads are 40% larger. I don't have vented rotors so my cooling won't be as good. Previously pedal travel was very short and required a lot of effort to slow the car quickly. Now because of the larger pistons pedal travel is a bit longer but effort is drastically reduced. Front tires are the first to lock up which is obviously desirable. I guess if I wanted a little less pedal travel I could go from a 19mm master to the 23mm master. But I think they feel great the way they are. Again, I know that a lot of you don't have 914 parts but if you do this one is really a no brainer.
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That is Great news Phil, that is certainly a neet solution too. I do think that IM chooses 911 as they want to stay with suppliers that are German or rather the Tribute car or company they are mimicking. ie vw porsche
Congrats! Nice solution.
Phil, Could you please post your research data here as there must be more that would appreciate knowing what their options are if they are either building new or modifying their cars.
I know when I was building my car I was investigating 944 and other options and finally settle on a 911 front end with 911 brakes but we did some mods on the rear for ease of replacement, the track width and reliability. Most times if you simply duplicate an existing manufacturers set up you will avoid a lot of agony in maintaining your car.
Things I was concerned about for maintenance issues when the car left the builder.
Again, very nice upgrade very glad it worked out for you ...Ray
IaM-Ray posted:That is Great news Phil, that is certainly a neet solution too. I do think that IM chooses 911 as they want to stay with suppliers that are German or rather the Tribute car or company they are mimicking. ie vw porsche
Both Porsche 914-4 brakes and BMW 320i brakes are German and made by the same manufacturer, ATE. Porsche and BMW may manufacture their own brakes now but not in the 70s and 80s.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/te...914_BMW_calipers.htm
http://www.pelicanparts.com/te...pers/brake_calc2.htm
Here are the links. If you read the links you will see that for the early 70-72 914-4 cars the struts, calipers and rotors are different than the 72-76 914-4 cars. Henry uses the parts off the later 72-76 cars. For the early cars the 320i calipers are straight bolt on, no machining. For the later cars (like mine) flanges have to be machined to work. If anyone out there is building an IM with 914-4 running gear up front I would highly recommend this. You might even want to see if Henry can build the car with the early struts and rotors so you don't have to machine the flanges.
Thanks Phil, very interesting read.
Does anyone know if the stock chrome wheels that vintage supplies on their builds will clear the 320i calipers? I have 4 lug by 130mm 15 in. wheels on my 2006 Vintage built on a 1969 pan. They are in good shape and I'd like to keep them. I think that they are 51/2 inch wide.
Joel
The BMW calipers won't fit stock VW Ghia disc brake spindles just 914 spindles. Talbot/Chrysler/SIMCA Horizon calipers do fit stock VW spindles BUT suspect they are hard to come by. Their brake pads and pistons are larger than Ghia ones.
http://ultimateaircooled.com/w...hat-brakes-bolt.html
WOLFGANG posted:The BMW calipers won't fit stock VW Ghia disc brake spindles just 914 spindles. Talbot/Chrysler/SIMCA Horizon calipers do fit stock VW spindles BUT suspect they are hard to come by. Their brake pads and pistons are larger than Ghia ones.
http://ultimateaircooled.com/w...hat-brakes-bolt.html
Why is that, Paul? It's the caliper bracket that would matter, no? I'm struggling to see what difference the spindle would make.
Please enlighten.
wolfgang
Thanks for the reply-but like Stan I don't understand what the spindle has to do with the Bmw caliper fitting on.
joel
On both the VW Karmann Ghia and the VW 914, the spindle has the fitment holes (see 2 holes in photo) to hold the calipers in place (they of course have to turn with the wheels). Note - These Empi disc spindles have NO provision for the disc brake backing plate which are designed to keep dirt and water off the rotors.
Here's the 914 spindles with similar caliper mounting holes (914s do have backing plates and cross-drilled is aftermarket rotor)-
Recently there are some aftermarket kits (especially for the VW Super) that have separate caliper mounts that can be bolted to the to the spindle using the mounting holes designed for the shields. I'm sure these vibrate and don't offer precision of a single one piece cast/forged spindle.
SO I guess you could machine the caliper attachment plates to accept 914/BMW calipers to mount them to VW bug spindle backing plate holes. I have never seen them available off the shelf (even from CSP).
If a caliper mounting bracket could be made and the calipers were too big where the hit the in side of the wheel - spaces could be fitted with longer wheel bolts to fix that interference. I had to use spacers on mine with 2L Fuchs - the calipers just clipped the inside of the wheels. I guess I could have ground the calipers back where they hit.
I use the Beck 4 lug 356C replica wheels. They fit. No spacer needed.
Phil- what's the center to center measurement on the holes in the calipers?
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:Phil- what's the center to center measurement on the holes in the calipers?
3 inches. All of the alternatives I mentioned including the early 911 calipers have 3" bolt spacing. Obviously so does the 320i.
VW Ghia calipers are 2 1/4"
One more question. Vented or slotted rotors will not fit my current set up. But I could use cross drilled rotors instead of my solid rotors. What are the advantages of cross drilled rotors over solid rotors? Weight? Cooling? Both? Wolfgang?
The benefits of cross drilling and venting would be for cooling and the dissipation of gasses between the pad and rotor. Weight savings would be an additional benefit, however minimal.
Unless you're driving really hard or tracking the car I don't know that you would *need* the extra venting / cooling.
Ted
Slotted/drilled rotors have no advantage on the street or track, other than they look cool.
Ron O posted:Slotted/drilled rotors have no advantage on the street or track, other than they look cool.
I keep hearing that, but I'm not convinced. I could be wrong, but I seem to only hear it on VW sites.
Years ago I used to like to drive portions of VA's Skyline Drive (Check out Peaks of Otter). It doesn't take too much driving to experience brake fade. Scary on a down hill run on a road with infrequent guard rails and a long rocky drop off.
Good write up on advantages of slotted/drilled rotors.
http://www.sp-performance.com/..._drilled_slotted.htm
WOLFGANG posted:VW Ghia calipers are 2 1/4"
I've always thought a little welding and machine work could fix that...
Hey you IM 911 guys. What 911 brakes do you have on your cars? From what year/model? Pretty sure you're not using old 65-69 solid rotor with M calipers. Vented rotors? How many piston?
Does this pic help?
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Phil:
I believe mine are the same as Marty's, front and rear. My suspension and brakes were from a 1987 911 SC.
Marty. I think I'm getting excited.
Yes I have those as well in front and as far as I know they are single piston.
Bob, I think your car has full 911 susp and brakes in the rear too. While we have type I or 944 for those who are purists trailing arms and we have solid disks non porsche vw style.
FYI, I upgrade my rear brakes to an exact size match to the 911 rears, pad, piston size etc, but they are sourced from VW for easy replacement.
Ray wrote: FYI, I upgrade my rear brakes to an exact size match to the 911 rears, pad, piston size etc, but they are sourced from VW for easy replacement.
Ray, you upgraded your rear disc brake pads after you got your car?
Ray:
Yes, mine is all 911, front and rear.
IaM-Ray posted:
FYI, I upgrade my rear brakes to an exact size match to the 911 rears, pad, piston size etc, but they are sourced from VW for easy replacement.
So what did you use?
I did not do the work myself the builder did. What happened is that my build was changing as we upgraded different components and once you have the 911 front end you ask yourself what is left to do or upgrade. So I thought of upgrading the rear brakes.... On my old IM I use to have a Golf based rear brakes... Henry is the one that found the VW caliper which is Golf based, but it needed some custom work for a bracket and I do not know it's source. The maker knows for sure.
I am of the opinion that when building a car if you can use something that other large manufacturers have done on a million cars your chances of success are higher.
Case in point is the Fuel Injection in a type one engine..... Sorry but no thank you...
My subie engine has the stock ECU for the same reason.
Doing R&D on brakes is not something I want to fool around with too much and while the rear brakes help... the front is by far the most important upgrade path.
Did I get it all perfect... NO... I have a short list I might or should have done but it is really short.
But I have to say that this car is night and day different from my type I IM.
I still wouldn't spend any extra money on slotted or drilled rotors, but I definitely would opt for vented rotors on the front.