IM or the real thing

I have been reading these posts for the past few months in my search for my 356. I live in NJ and I can not have a car without windows so my only two choices are an IM or the real thing. I like the look of the 1959 roadster from IM but I am a little concerned about resale, if that would ever happen. With a real 356, I would not think losing value would be a problem. I am aware upkeep on an older car would be more. Insurance is about the same. I also may be without a garage for a while and I am concerned about keeping a 40 year old car outside (with a cover of course). The IM would be a bit more durable

I value your imput...

...I think resale has been good on the newer IM ....for example a few months ago an IM went for 29,000US....considering what a new car usually drops in resale value the minute you drive it off the lot, I thought this was quite good....the key to resale on a newer IM is having a little bigger engine and not the 1776.

Another consideration on buying the "real thing" is that resale may not be as good as you think....it really depends on if you bought the car for the right money in the first place.....do you feel confident in your ability to judge a "real" one and not get taken to the cleaners. It may be that you are, but for me it would not be a good idea.

The biggest reason of all for me to not buy the "real" ones is the upkeep costs would be much higher and the hassle factor of dealing with old cars just isn't worth it to me. I would want a car to drive more then to work on, and the old cars just aren't that way.

Just my opinion

Henry at IM offers both the Roadster (convertible "D") and Speedster with roll up or electric windows. The Speedster can be had with either the high-bow or low-bow top.

The IM Roadster top has a zip-out-open rear window which is nice for airy fall days with the windows down, but the Speedster top's rear window doesn't have the zip-out option.

Remember, Paul, if you're talking Speedster, the "real thing" had side curtains (just like a replica) not windows.

Paul, if you want to DRIVE the car a real Porsche may not be a good choice from the standpoint of maintenance and depreciation. A driver is not going to maintain a "cherry" collector's condition; of course you can buy an original that's not "cherry". Add to that the performance of the originals is pretty lack-luster, the brakes are just OK, and of course there's "demon body rust" to contend with.

If you have any serious mechanical problems a vintage Porsche can get very expensive very quickly.

Why not just be patient and shop for a good used replica buy?

I currently have a unique view of the 'real' speedster world through the eyes of my son... His mom & stepdad are immersed in restoration concerns, expenditures of big dollars...Trying to buy low and sell high, all the while keeping their noses high in the air.

I've had three open air 356s and each was unique, one was actually in really nice condition, until I rolled it. I never lost a lot of money on them, but in that era, they were drivers not specimens. I did have my twin-grille roadster under insured when I had my accident, that was my big loss.

Two plus years now in my little pretend Porsche) and I'm not sure I'm worried about resale, knowing I am getting the car nearer to what I want to drive... The maintenance is negligible, most the fix-em-up has been from driving too hard.

From what we've all seen as the replicar makers have evolved and the various members have shared their experiences, if you have the money to tailor an IM or a JPS to suit you, man go for it...it can easily include roll-em-up windows, ain't nothin' money can't fix, ask GB.

If you have the dough to acquire a Porsche 356A speedster or a true 59' convertible 'D' or one of the 356 roadsters now on eBay, then you're going to have to factor in the costs and allay the fears you expressed, proper storage (although most insurance carriers want your replica stored inside as well)upkeep and swings in a very subjective market, classic cars!
MM

And then there is that four letter word....rust.
Ron

I hate that word also. I had to have a steel plate put in my head back in 1973. Not long after that I do believe it was the winter of 76 I started developing black-outs and memory loss. This was all do to a small amount of rust the size of a dime that had started to generate on the plate do to contamination in the preoperational stage. Not Fun! So when I say I

David,

I agree. I don't think I've had so much fun with a car since I traded my big Healey back in the late 60's. My way of looking at these things is FUN. Can't say the same as 99.5% of the other cars in the showrooms now. Reliable, yes but BORING! Hey, I've got a boring reliable car sitting besides my Speedster if I need it, and truthfully the Speedster is pretty reliable. I am working it up to longer and longer trips. The Replica Rendevous in April at Knotts Berry is going to be a 1400 mile roundtrip and I am looking forward to it!

Bruce

I went for a little 150 miles drive last Sunday....and nothing blew up or fell off...I'm so happy!
Ron

So, basicly, if you want a car to use and enjoy, get the IM and if you are willing to take a chance and are handy, get the real thing. Where are the IM's listed for resale?

Paul,

You'll probably have to rely on the internet to determine resale on a replica, as your only other outlet is a classic car dealer (and not to many of those are interested. What I can tell you from over three years of watching ebay and traderonline is this- these cars hold their value better than a corvette, BMW, or late-model Porsche, but not as well as a "real" 356. I have never seen a tube-framed IM sell below $15K. That being said, the guys who get the most out of their cars are the guys who have the patience to time their sale when the market is high. If you anticipate needing to sell in a hurry, then neither a replica or an original is right for you.

One more thought- a nice original "A model" Convertible D will cost about what a well appointed IM replica would. A nice speedster goes about $60K. Do you want what goes with high resale? Rust, dents, repairs, and REALLY expensive parts are all part of the deal. Did I mention rust? I drove my JPS speedster to my sons basketball game about 50 miles away last night. I parked it, went inside, and never gave it another thought... If I had had an original- it would have stayed under the car cover in the garage. IMHO, it comes down to this- do you want to USE the car, or not?

Contact Henry at IM - he sometimes brokers customers cars for them.

Paul,
Stan is right. Last summer I participated in a Porsche Club outing to meet and drive in the hills around Chattanooga, Tn. There was a nice selection of cars which showed up, mostly 356 models. While we were there, an ABSOLUTELY GEORGEOUS black original '56 Speedster showed up. Now I don't actually know what the good doctor's schedule may have been for that particular day, but I surmise that "showing up" on nice days is mostly what he did. I don't think that this car was a driver other than for brief outings on perfect days, which this happened to be. Unfortunately, I did not get a digi-pic of the car before the owner left, but this experience spoke volumes to me regarding original or replica question. I struggled with it also, but think I made the right choice.
Just my two kroner
John H.

If we're stricktly talking open cars, a real Speedster or Conv. D in good shape (meaning restored or well cared for original) will cost *way* more than all but the most tricked-out IM. We're talking the difference between $70k and $40k.

The $40k IM, while not quite George's over-the-top job, will have twice the power, better drivability, better handling and *much* lower maintanance costs and insurance than the 45-year-old original.

Another advantage of a new IM is factory support. This is especially important to people with very little experience(like me) and people that live in areas without mechanics really familiar with modified VW engines(like my area). It is comforting to know that Henry stands ready to assist during and after the sale. For example, this Wednesday Henry spent the afternoon with me on my new Speedster teaching me how to change the oil, adjust the valves, check the advance, adjust and balance the carbs, etc. as well as pointing out how to raise and lower the car, things to watch for as the car ages and so on.. This is value added that you will not normally get when you buy a real Speedster.

Personally, I am thrilled with the new IM. I did not even consider a real Speedster as an option for the reasons stated. Also, I am no longer interested in original concours events, official entry into the Porsche Club, etc. (been there, done that in my 911 back when the kids were small).

(PS: I have posted some new pictures taken at IM for anyone interested)

I feel the same way.The old cars have there place but the are not practical, bad brakes, early steering. and a small engine with no room to change.
The kit car way just makes good sence, disc brakes, different tranny opions,rack and pinion steering can be done. and even with a 2.0 T-4 are pretty darn good on gas ,

The guy buying the 70k real Porsche is not worrying about the cost
of fixing it or maintaining it!!! He is a collector or a wealthy
sort who wants the real thing. The short commings of the real Porsche
is of no concern as a trip to the country club a couple times a week
won't hurt anything.He does know however that if he gives it reasonable care, he can always recoop his invertment or make a buck
or two.
The replica owner is a totaly different sort. He is a driving type,
that brakes,hp. etc. mean a great deal to. He does know that when he
wants a change his car, IM-vintage- jps.-whatever, will lose up to
50% of his investment in only a couple of years. Wo to those buried
up to 50,60k in a replica.
It all comes down to type of use and what kind of investor you are,or
can afford to be.
We all have a couple of Cars in our garage losing a bunch each year,
so why not one more. Only the buyer can decide whats best for HIM.

Actually, I think it's the buyers wife that decides isn't it?

I just read the sales description of a 1960 roadster that is for sale on eBay currently. Black over grey, rebuilt upgraded engine & brakes, 12 volt system. This looks like a reasonably priced, well-cared for driver.

Like George pointed out there are 'drivers' and their are 'specimens' or 'collectibles'.

Driving one diminishes its value, driving the other is a joy.
You have about $37K there is a nice 356 going, going...
MM

I would probably not buy a real spdstr but I would like to have a nice (read no rust) 356A coupe 56 or early 57 with behives. I doubt I'd keep it stock enginewise and probably go a little outlaw with it. I don't worry too much about resale or investment value. That's why God made real estate. I tend not to get rid of stuff I like or that will tolorate me (wife-38 yrs). If they made a replica coupe I'd really be interested but with only a two car garage now it would get crowded out front.
ed

Ed, every once in the while I'll cruise Ebay and look over the coupes too, but then I would have to sell my 911 pickup...which would probably be a good thing.
Ron

Well, I took your advice and signed the IM contract. My car will be ready in May or June. My decison came down to the fact I want to drive my new car, not be concerned if I drive to the beach etc. The real kicker was one of my daughter's friends coincidently mentioned her father bought a 356 and she told me that "yes, it runs" It has not left the garage. I would rather get in and go.

My next question is options. I think I will go with A/C. I like the way Henry makes it look and, what the heck, if it is not the real thing I might as well update it. Henry says 75% of the cars he makes have A/C. I went with the german weave carpet, stereo and the super 90 engine. He says this years model has higher horsepower (100 hp), and leather seats. I am pretty much maxed out ( I still have to ship it to New Jersey and paid sales tax)but if anyone has any suggestions of other things I should consider, please reply. I also am considering colors, interior, roof and body. Any suggestions, photos?

Paul:
I would look at George Brown's registry, files and associated posts (GeorgeB) for ideas. You most likely will not want everything George selected, but I doubt there is much of anything missing from his option list. Also, Henry just finished my car, so you might want to see what Henry has done, including what a nice job he did with integrating the A/C into the dash. When I was building my car I benchmarked George's car for ideas (some people call it "stealing shamelessly", but what the heck.)

Brian

Paul I assume since you bought an IM that you did get the roll up windows? I don't think anyone would argue that the curtains are worth any money you might save by not getting roll ups. I also think you should look a George and his build for ideas of little additions that will be very nice, such as; parking brake placement, locable lid releases and some other little things that make it much nicer....IMHO

If it hasn't got them already, front and rear sway bars are nice, as is four wheel disc brakes. I installed rear discs (I already have front discs) and I can really notice the difference....but it all ads up, doesn't it.
Ron

Ron,

What did you need to do before you added rear disc brakes? Is yours a 4 or 5 bolt pattern? What about e-brakes, was that a hassle? What was the cost? Who did you buy them from? How long did it take to install?

My front disc brakes work well and stop me fine. Are rear disc brakes worth the trouble and expense? Mostly concerned about stopping. Don't really race around too much anymore. Before with my drum brakes, I had to pray to stop before I hit something.

Thanks,
David

David, I went from 4 bolt to 5 bolt, so I could mount 5 bolt Porsche (replica) wheels. I put new rotors on the front and bought a rear brake kit (from CB-Roto-hub) for the back. The switch was fairly straight forward. I ended up putting in braided steel lines at the same time. I can't remember what they cost...somewhere in the $300-$400 US range, I think. Took me 3 days to put them on...I'm very slow. I wimped out and had a shop hook up my e-brakes.
I think that the rear discs make a big difference in stopping. I had to slow down VERY quickly, while doing 70+ mph on the highway, and the stopping power was very impressive. I put 3000 miles on the car with front discs/rear drums and the 4 wheel discs are a worthwhile improvement.
Ron