IM vs. Beck

Hi, I am new here, but not new to the air-cooled world. First car was a '69 bug that I put in an 2000cc with NO2 in high school! Ghia covert after that --- rear ended by a drunk --- Ah!

I have lusted for a Speedster since seeing pictures of my dad's speedster in which he courted my mom.

I am currently torn between a IM and a Beck. I would do a turn-key, as the days of having time to tinker have long passed (own a company and have a toddler).

I would probably have the Beck built by Specialty, if I went with a Beck. (The Subura Speders are too cool, but I like the sound of an ACed engine. Call me weird.)

I am looking for as-close-to-authentic-looking as possible and a hot rod, but not so hot that the thing breaks too much.

Probably a Carrera look, with a 2110, discs all around, badges, etc.

I would love to have the "extras" like an umbrella-style E-brake and the rolled-up fiberglass under the wheel wells.

Ironically turned-off by the glass windows of the IM. I live in Texas, with 350 days of Sun. If it's raining, I'll take my pickup. The top will never be up.

I guess my questions are twofold: (1) what is the reasonable price for such a creation? and (2) between the two builders, who takes more care in the fit and finish?

Where do you live in Texas? I'm up in OKC and could meet you at the river some day and let you look over an IM.

David,
The best thing is to talk with the owners. You should also definitly look and drive if possible each manufacture's car you are interested in.

If you are turned off by the Intermeccanicas side windows, Henry still does speedsters with side curtains at the owners request. I think he is doing one now actually.

Also read the post about buying a replica that Paul Harford wrote. It is at the top of all the catagories on the forum, I guess so know one misses it. The article is excellent.

Good luck to you and enjoy the search.

Dale

David, your best bet to get the answers you are seeking is to write owners of both Beck and Intermeccanica P-mails. Then, talk to both builders and if you have time, fly to both builders, take a tour of their facilities, observe cars being built; watch the prep going into the bodies, compare frames, the paint process, materials used, and drive a car or two or three.

As far as Intermeccanica owners I'm sure the following guys would be happy to respond to yoiur mail with answers about the high quality of their cars: Dale Bates, Stan Galat, Scott Sloan, Oz Abregov, Dan Palmquist, Ron Leonard, Rick Davis, Brooks Walton, Bruce Gordon, Dave Holmwodd, and me, Jim Ward. There are others, I just communicate with these guys and think they will take time to respond.

Someone who has seen nearly every type of replica built and is known for his high standards in both Speedsters he has owned (JPS) is Mr. John Leader. John organized the very first west US Speedster Replica meeting at Knotts and I value his critical eye, knowledge of Porsches (he has two P-cars and just sold a beautiful Speedster GT Replica, and may be considering building his third car), and his honest and objective opinion on many things, especially 356 Replicas. Write John with your list of questions.

As Jim I says: Peace Out! Jim Ward (405) 615-7384 Call anytime.

I wouldn't go with an intermechannica. They are too expensive. I mean at that price, you could buy a real one!

Thanks all. The article is excellent, and I have read it. (Saw it on ebaymotors, first, I think.)

I will do futher direct follow up as I get enough information to ask good questions.

I live in Midland, TX that's -- smack in the middle of the Permian Basin, 4-5 hours West of Ft. Worth and 4 hours East of El Paso, 2 hours South of Lubbock. And I work every day but Saturday. (Joy of owning your own business in an oil boom).

Point being, actual eye-balling of anything is nigh impossible.

Any ideas on the cost of the a turn-key? Do they negotiate from the list price?

I see a "mybeckspeedster,inc" that appears to be Special Ed., and has a price list for options, but nothing comprable for IM.

In particular, can a Beck come with an umbrella E-brake?

Sorry to ask so many questions.

Oh David, right now a doll is being made in your image.....
I love this site.....

David,
Don't know where you live in Texas....I'm in Austin. Have a 2005 Intermeccanica Speedster with 2110cc engine.Would be happy to let you see and drive my car.
Bob M

(Re: Ollie and Mangoman's remarks)

And the magpies chime in like clockwork. Heckel and Jeckel. Neither owns a Beck or an IM (and one can't even spell Intermeccanica, and yet...?) Pure Man Love.

Try pricing a base Im or Beck and compare that with the cheapest, most rusted out hulk of a real Speedster you can find.... and you might, I say might, find one that needs about another 30-50G (minimum) in restoration costs on top of the base IM/Beck cost.

When someone asks about a SAW, a JPS, VS, etc, I stay out of the discussion. It seems like the right thing to do.
____________________________________________________________________
On topic

Bob, that's a beautiful Speedster. Are you considering driving up to Ennis next month? (Let me know by p-mail) Hope to meet you some day.

David, Midland-Odessa? Is that where west Texas begins? lol. Mojo, Friday Night Lights Football country. Good luck on your hunt for the right Speedster for you. There are PDFs on the IM site with details and pricing (I think). I'm sure Henry will send you a list asap if you write him. There is a page on the IM site that follows the Intermeccanica build process w/pics.

Again, as Dale suggested, write owners of Becks and IMs. They may be able to help you make the decision that fits. Good luck!

I have a newer Beck that I am very happy with.I believe the IM to possibly have some advantages, but I really haven't found any shortcomings with the Beck that would cause me to regret not parting with significantly more cash for the IM. Depending what you want, I think you can get into a Beck with some upgrades for $30-ish K. From everything that I can gather, an IM will typically run another $10K. Talk to Carey Hines at Special Edition for details on the Beck. I have found him to be a very straight shooter and provider of good customer service. No, I'm not on his payroll ;)

"David, Midland-Odessa? Is that where west Texas begins? lol. Mojo, Friday Night Lights Football country."

Oh yes. The only place in America where one can be in Home Depot and run into the soon-to-be First Lady buying all sorts of cleaning products and new toilet seats before they moved into the White House.

(Seriously. This happened to me. She was deathly afraid of sitting on a toilet that Pres. Clinton had sat on. Makes sense, really.)

That's a funny story, David. Is it true that they only sell gold plated toilet lids at the Midland-Odessa Home Depot, or was that pre-1985? (lol) I'm glad things are starting to boom in the patch again. We have a few friends in the business and it's good to see Americans making money again, in the USA! Busy is good, right?

I used to take the spare seat on an air taxi out to Midland when we lived in the DFW area. That's big country out there, you can see for miles.

Good luck and good hunting on the Speedster of your choice. If you get up (and over) to red dirt country in Okrahoma, let me know.

"Is it true that they only sell gold plated toilet lids at the Midland-Odessa Home Depot, or was that pre-1985?"

Well, 82 was the crash . . . for a long while.

In 1999, oil was $9/barrel, and they were ready to roll up the streets. They promise to do it better this time.

I would love to know why you went with an IM.

I'll send a note first thing in the morning, David. You are right, 82, I recall the immediate drop off in corporate air traffic in and out of DFW. We used to get down to San Angelo to visit friends, nice town. Texas is truly a state of mind. We had two daughters born in Hurst, TX.

David; I don't even own an Intermec or a Beck but I can tell you both are good cars. But if you have the available funds I suggest you go with an Intermec as they're the best replicas with air-cooled drivetrains.

David,

One of my clients is Sterling County, I was there about 2 months ago and the drive from Odessa/Midlands to Sterling was actually really pretty with fast roads and endless miles of horizon/skyline... amazing country with great people.

The difference with all of the replicas is in the details and fit/finish. Though I have not driven a Beck, they appear to be well turned-out with the base vehicles representing a good value. Its when you add lots of expensive options that the lower priced replicas approach or surpass the price of more expensive cars that start with more thorough fit and finish. My former Vintage Speedster was a really fun REPLICA, my current IM is truly an AUTOMOBILE. Each represents a good value depending on your expectations/budget.

JimBob made the observation that he would speak to the quality of the car he is familiar with and that's a good tact. Dan intimated that you have basic costs and optional equipment costs that can run a mid-range priced replicar right up to the cost of an upper-end car... Both good points in my opinion.

For what was listed as important stuff to the author of this thread it looked to me as if he almost, if not subliminally, answered his own question; IM has some features he isn't interested in so no matter the sticker price, the Beck would do.

My caution would be who is building the Beck and do you have their undivided attention start to finish?

I'm not looking to start a flambe', I just read all these threads and wonder how some builds get so far wrong?

In closing I have to assume the guy who made the off-the-cuff-remark "he may as well by real steel..." (I paraphrased)has a valid sentiment but is way,way off in the dollars and cents columns! Rust bucket speedsters are rare,(and seldom under $40K) partially restored (or tired restorations) speedsters are commanding $80K and up and the speedsters that look as good as a new IM are in the six figures!

Engine parts for a 356 engine can cost as much as a whole type1 VW. If you have to have a Van Gogh, so be it, but in my garage a speedster replica hangs nicely!

Oh and good on you for asking, sorting and doing some homework in advance of your purchase.

You wouldn't be looking to sell those white wall tires would you?

The Beck I would be considering would be a Special Edition turn-key.

I have read a lot about Boulder --- and while knowing nothing first hand --- I just got a bad feel.

And an applause goes out for Paul, who actually read the post and actually paid attention and had the balls to just answer the question as it was posed.

David C. you will need to get in line for those whitewalls

Actually, Steve; I read his post attentively. I understand IM is the one who offers the rolled in fenders as well as the original style E-brake as standard with a CB Performance built 2110 engine as an option. He said he wanted something as close to an original as possible with a hot rod edge and great attention to detail and finish. Now don't get me wrong, Beck is an incredible car but I told him that if he had the funds the Intermec is it because it fits the description of what he wants to do to a "T".

Thanks for the continuing advice.

I have called Carey at Speciality. Per his advice, I am ordering the 356 Restorer's Guide to Authenticity.

He is, indeed, a very nice guy and had nothing but praise for IM.

To paraphrase him, he believes I have hit on the two best builders --- the main distinctions being: (1) build time and (2) IM is a little more of a modern (and, to him, thus less true) undercarriage, with rack & pinion and the like.

His Becks do have the "rolled under" wheel wells, BTW. They do not have umbrella brakes (but this can be ordered).

Now on to calling IM.

David, I have a recently built Beck (the Carlisle build car) and am very pleased, but I will agree that there are some significant differences that make the IM really appealing. That said, the price difference when engines and other options are included would have put the IM way out of my budget. I spoke extensively with Henry in 2005 and have the utmost respect for him and his products. I've bugged the s**t out of Carey and he's been extremely patient and helpful, and I don't think I could be much happier with my car. You can't go wrong either way. I won't bore the forum with an overlong post, but feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions.

Jim Ward,
I remember something about Ennis, but fill me in again. I will try to make it.
Bob M

Lane, regarding the Beck, what are the "tells" that is not authentic?

I understand that the fiberglass is rolled-under in the wheel wells and an umbrella E-brake can be ordered.

(I also know about the footwell being better than the original.)

I'm not an expert, but I'll do my best.
1. The floor area is much wider than the pan-based replicas, and a bit wider than the original Speedsters.
2. The trim on the dash is a bit different, but can be made more original.
3. Also, door panels are much fancier than the originals with full-lenght door pockets and pleats. Again, you can easily make it more original.
4. The small chome beading on the top of the ddors would need to be added.
5. Becks come with a shine-down license plate light even though the shine-up is correct for the teardrop taillights. Also correctable.
6. The standard side spear would need to be replaced with the aluminum stuff available from IM, JPS or parts vendors.
7. The seats are slightly different. You'd need to look at pictures of both and compare.
8. As you already know, the standard emergency brake is incorrect.
9. The deco strip is of a different style, but can be replaced with the OEM strips as mine has.

That's all I can think of right now. All of it looks like it can be modified as suits your taste and budget.

Lane, doesn't look like thousands of dollars to me. Pimp out the beck and ride.
Take the cash you've saved and go on a nice trip or two.

"Becks come with a shine-down license plate light even though the shine-up is correct for the teardrop taillights."

Actually there are a few documented original cars with shine down license plate lights and teardrop taillights. So don't sweat that one, besides no one on a dail basis knows or cares anyway...LOL.

Ricardo, I was applauding his post, but I wasn't trying to say everyone elses post was irrelevent or bad.

Lane, that was a great post.

I've gotten some great emails, too.

(Of course, now I am being inundated with emails Thunder Ranch fans, asking me why it's not Beck vs. IM. vs. Thunder Ranch. LOL.)

I look at them, too.

Wow, now I've gotten emails about KitCar consumer alerts re: Thunder Ranch. Never mind.

Carey mounted my license plate light in the shine up position. It fits well. As I recall, there were a number of running changes during production as Porsche exhausted the old parts in the bin and then transitioned to the new. But in any case, shine up or shine down on the Beck is your choice, as are solid red or red/amber taillights.

Yup. Carey and Kevin aims to please.

this is a picture of a real 56. it has the shine down lights and the non-tear-drop stopers

David,
When it comes to "authenticity" in regard to replicas I think your options are endless. From what I've seen of what is left of the originals many have been modified over the years. I see pictures all the time online or in books contradicting "factory stuff". I guess what I'm saying is I think you can do just about anything you'd like, mix and match. For what it's worth - regardless of how close I could ever get my car to looking original I still know it's not. I never try to pass it off as anything but a replica. I may someday, if finances allow, get a new IM however I'm leaning toward keeping my old IM speedster for the nice days and getting a JPS coupe for the others, two replicas for the price of one!

I wouldn't try to "pass" for anyone but myself; just anal retentive to detail!

Hey Mickey -

To reiterate a post I put on here a while back - with regard to anyone's (particularly a peeved P-car owner) query as to "...why a replica?"

I reply "...think of it (replica) as breast augmentation. EVERYBODY knows they're fake, but they're still nice to LOOK AT and WAY MORE FUN to play with than the originals"!

Peace - Out!

So true Jim! My buddy says "There's no such thing as fake breasts. If you can touch them then they're real!"
I hope I didn't misrepresent myself or imply that our cars are "sub-par" to the originals? I'm with David on the "anal retentive to detail" thing. I drive myself crazy sometimes with my car trying to figure out how I can get something more "original looking"! All the time knowing in the back of my head I could just call Henry and get it over with. Though, for me, that would take all the fun out if it. I love trying to find ways to make my car look more and more like the real deal. I don't think I could enjoy an original as much as I enjoy my replica. I love having the piece of mind that at least, if something unfortunate happened, I could just go out and get another one!

That's what's so great about these cars. You can either be "anal retentive to detail" regarding originality, or you can go completely custom - or anywhere in between. I just love the old style looks and am a bit less concerned with originality as long as it's period correct, or at least looks that way.