Installed the oil breather kit today

Check your oil EVERY time you drive it for a while since you've changed the configuration of the car. After a while you'll get a feel for oil consumption.

I usually see the oil breather tank placed high up so any condensed oil drains back into the oil filler area to the crank case.  Assume yours drains back into the valve cover on one side?

Thanks for the feedback , good point , I was using some existing holes but I’ll move up!

Chris

Is there anything inside of that EMPI breather box?  Some of them (CB Perf and Berg) have baffles inside to help capture the oil to separate it from the oil/air mix generated in the crankcase.  Others of us lightly stuff a copper or stainless steel "Chore Boy" (scrubbing pad in the cleaning aisle of your local grocery store) into the box to help capture the oil from the gasses passing through and let gravity pull it down into the drain and back to the case.  Lots more info on here by searching on "breathers".

What you're really trying to do is not so much getting the engine to "breathe" as you are trying to capture the oil from the crankcase gasses and separate the oil from those gasses before it vents to the carb intakes or outside environment.

not so much getting the engine to "breathe"

Large displacement engines seem to generate a lot of blow-by and crank shaft turbulence - this can blow out oil seals and cause oil leaks.

That's true, but mostly because the "crankcase" internal volume was never designed for cylinder displacements much over 1,900 ccs, plus the extent of ring seal on many of the ring sets available these days, and a "good enough" attitude from fewer and fewer engine builders facing more and more build requests means you get more crankcase pressure.  Danny P took the time on his engine to do it right (OK, so being moderately OCD had something to do with it, too) and his crankcase pressure is minimal compared to a lot of them on here.

Also ,

is anyone also venting to the air filter inlet ? Really don’t want oil in my carb lol  

@WOLFGANG posted:

not so much getting the engine to "breathe"

Large displacement engines seem to generate a lot of blow-by and crank shaft turbulence - this can blow out oil seals and cause oil leaks.

Prior to installing my breather/catch can, any period of freeway driving would force oil out my valve covers.

@356_2cool2slow posted:

Also ,

is anyone also venting to the air filter inlet ? Really don’t want oil in my carb lol  

That’s the primary reason I did my mod, I wanted to eliminate the breather venting to my carb.

As I understand it, the purpose of an additional breather is twofold: first, it increases the volume of air in the “crankcase.” Like Gordon said, the bigger an engine is, the more air it’s pushing around inside the crankcase, increasing both the pressure and the misting of the oil. Adding volume lessens the pressure. And second, it helps get that oil out of suspension and back in your crankcase. Many people prefer that oil not get back into your engine so they route the vent to the atmosphere.

If I’m seeing your picture correctly, you’re not venting anywhere. It looks like the three  lines into your can are L/R Valve covers and the oil filler neck. The instruction sheet you posted shows an OEM filler. That black pipe next to the filler doesn’t go back to the engine, it goes down through the tin and exits the car through a simple one-way valve.

You need to either T one of your lines or make another fitting on your breather to exit. You can drill a hole to get a hose outside your engine compartment, you don’t have to put that vent back into your carb.

eta: I was just looking at that OEM filler neck again and I realized how much internal volume it had, compared to the Empi fillers that you and I have. So by having those, we’re going backwards.

EPA cringes over our ancient air cooled polluters.  No PCV - vent to atmosphere!  No gas carbon filter for vapors - vent to atmosphere. 

@dlearl476 posted:

Prior to installing my breather/catch can, any period of freeway driving would force oil out my valve covers.

That’s the primary reason I did my mod, I wanted to eliminate the breather venting to my carb.

As I understand it, the purpose of an additional breather is twofold: first, it increases the volume of air in the “crankcase.” Like Gordon said, the bigger an engine is, the more air it’s pushing around inside the crankcase, increasing both the pressure and the misting of the oil. Adding volume lessens the pressure. And second, it helps get that oil out of suspension and back in your crankcase. Many people prefer that oil not get back into your engine so they route the vent to the atmosphere.

If I’m seeing your picture correctly, you’re not venting anywhere. It looks like the three  lines into your can are L/R Valve covers and the oil filler neck. The instruction sheet you posted shows an OEM filler. That black pipe next to the filler doesn’t go back to the engine, it goes down through the tin and exits the car through a simple one-way valve.

You need to either T one of your lines or make another fitting on your breather to exit. You can drill a hole to get a hose outside your engine compartment, you don’t have to put that vent back into your carb.

eta: I was just looking at that OEM filler neck again and I realized how much internal volume it had, compared to the Empi fillers that you and I have. So by having those, we’re going backwards.

So i should add a t-fitting off the return oil neck and vent to the floor?

The Empi breather box is vented at the lid.  The lid is open at the edge.

I should have asked. (I did suspect.) But if it’s vented, why do the instruction show hooking it to the OEM vent?

@356_2cool2slow posted:

So i should add a t-fitting off the return oil neck and vent to the floor?

If what Michael said is true, you don’t need to do anything. Sorry I jumped in.

@dlearl476 posted:

@Michael McKelvey posted:

“The Empi breather box is vented at the lid.  The lid is open at the edge.”

I should have asked. (I did suspect.) But if it’s vented, why do the instruction show hooking it to the OEM vent?

If what Michael said is true, you don’t need to do anything. Sorry I jumped in.

I ran a breather box (Bugpack brand, iIrc) like that on a 1750 and found that at higher rpm's (the engine easily went to almost 7,000 rpm in 1st and 2nd gear when bracket racing) the thin layer of foam and 1 piece of metal screen couldn't contain the oil mist coming up the hose from the rocker covers.  Gordon's solution (to increase the hose diameter from 3/8 to 5/8") adds significantly more crankase volume and slows the air speed in the hoses enough so most of the oil would fall out of suspension before it ever reached the breather.  The air entering the breather from the tubes would also have slowed down enough that it wouldn't blow the oil through the foam into the engine compartment.  I also think the box itself is too small, and would be much more effective if it was 2 or maybe even 3 times taller with a couple extra layers of foam trapping the mist that did manage to make it up the larger tubing, but on a stock stroke engine that only goes to 5500 or 6,000 rpm, the larger tubing would probably be enough, as Gordon has found out on his (was it) 1835?

A hose from the bottom of the breather box to the oil filler area would make a good drain.

Gordon has a 2110.

@DannyP posted:

Gordon has a 2110.

Thank you Danny.  Now let me rephrase that last sentence-

I also think the box itself is too small, and would be much more effective if it was 2 or maybe even 3 times taller with a couple extra layers of foam trapping the mist that did manage to make it up the larger tubing, but even on a 2 liter+ stroker engine that only goes to 5500 or 6,000 rpm, the larger tubing will be enough, as Gordon has found out on his 2110.  If my math is correct, going from 3/8 to 5/8" tubing increases volume by almost 120%.

No problem, Al.

I've found out a few things about type1 breather setups in the last 15 years or so.

1) The MOST important thing with respect to blow-by is the cylinder condition. Out of round cylinders or worn rings equals oily mess on the outside of the engine. If the piston rings seal well, you're ahead of the game. If not, you'll always be fighting the mess. This cannot be determined by compression check or leak-down tests. The cylinders get ovaled out on the bottom of the piston stroke, that is where all(most?) of the blow by happens. Leak down is done at TDC, and you can have great compression in a motor that leaks past the rings like a sieve.

2) RPM and engine load(throttle opening) are both big players here. The more full throttle applied the more blow by. Same with rpms. Displacement plays a role here as well, the further from stock displacement you go the more blow by you'll have.

3) As Al has stated, VOLUME of the breather setup is crucial. The hoses leading to and from the engine play a large part here. I currently have a 3/4" I.D. hose from the distributor hole to my home-made 547-style angled tube breather, which is 75 cubic inches. It's finally big enough. This slows down the oil-suspended air enough that oil drops out of suspension quicker.

4) I have the least problems with breathing now with the current setup:

    Autocraft 2-stage dry sump pump, full flow case, external 96 plate cooler, oil thermostat, electric fan thermostat, remote oil filter mount with pressure bypass(JayCee), AN-10 lines for feeding the pump on both stages, AN-8 lines for after the pump, AN-8 lines for the breathers(I have TWO), AN-8 lines venting both valve covers, Saldana 8 quart ROUND dry-sump tank. My home-made breather tube and the dry sump tank both vent to a smaller breather/catch can.

Yes, it's complicated. Yes, it's expensive. But it works for a 2165cc that revs to the moon and back.

The cure on the engine itself wasn't too expensive, but after over 40,000 miles my cylinders were shot. Mahle "B" forged pistons and cast iron cylinders. Stock Mahle rings except for Total Seal #2 compression ring. $500. Plus labor, but I do my own work.

Keeping the motor cool(inside it's best temp range) is key. A good shroud and plenty of cool air cannot be stressed enough for engine longevity.

@dlearl476 posted:

@Michael McKelvey posted:

“The Empi breather box is vented at the lid.  The lid is open at the edge.”

I should have asked. (I did suspect.) But if it’s vented, why do the instruction show hooking it to the OEM vent?

If what Michael said is true, you don’t need to do anything. Sorry I jumped in.

Well I vented today and ran the car at idle for about 5 minutes. Note there is no seal when you close it( like a rubber gasket) so can vent a little assuming you don;t tighten to much . I did notice minor white smoke coming from the tube down to the floor.

.

If the car's been sitting awhile on Long Island in February, I'm guessing the 'white smoke' was some accumulated water condensation turning to steam, as it does.

But an example of why it's a good idea to fire up these motors (or any motors, for that matter) a few times a month or so and run them until warm, if at all possible throughout the winter.

Yeah, I know, unwelcome advice from someone typing in sunny California, but still.

.

@356_2cool2slow posted:

Well I vented today and ran the car at idle for about 5 minutes. Note there is no seal when you close it( like a rubber gasket) so can vent a little assuming you don;t tighten to much . I did notice minor white smoke coming from the tube down to the floor.

5 minutes isn't really long enough to get it hot. White smoke is normal during warmup.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

If the car's been sitting awhile on Long Island in February, I'm guessing the 'white smoke' was some accumulated water condensation turning to steam, as it does.

But an example of why it's a good idea to fire up these motors (or any motors, for that matter) a few times a month or so and run them until warm, if at all possible throughout the winter.

Yeah, I know, unwelcome advice from someone typing in sunny California, but still.

.

Running them in the garage idling is the WORST thing you can do to your motor. Believe me, it never gets hot enough. Idling is bad, especially for an aircooled motor.

Please don't do this. Either leave it on the battery tender until spring or take it out and DRIVE it. Warm it up easy then drive it hard. You WANT to get it hot enough to boil out all the condensation out of the oil and crankcase.

I'm with Danny.  Put them to sleep, put a battery minder on them and leave them alone til the spring.  None of this "Start them every few weeks through the winter" business for MY gal.

I put Pearl to sleep just after Thanksgiving when the first snow hit (I pull the fuel pump relay and let her run the float bowls dry) and just woke her up the first time, yesterday, after doing an oil change and valve check a few days ago.  Turned on the ignition to get the fuel pump running, counted to 30, pumped her six times, hit the key and she just cranked over.....No start.   😡

Started over and pumped it maybe 8 more times (seemed more like ten pumps, to be honest) and she finally caught and rev'd nicely, holding it (with a little difficulty, at first) at 1,200 rpm for a minute (that is always the longest minute in the history of car starting) and then she would lumpy-idle on her own til she warmed up and smoothed out.

Took a short ride around the 'hood and had to shut her down due to schedule conflicts but will be out there tomorrow, hoping to get an hours drive in and get her new oil nicely warmed.

Either drive them regularly through the winter or let them sit for the duration.  Starting every few weeks doesn't help and often causes other problems.

.

OK, OK, I guess I should have stressed the get it warm part.

I do start and drive my car at least twice a month during the winter - this year I've been able to do that just about every week. It avoids the starting issues Gordon has been seeing. And sometimes, it takes more than 15 minutes of driving until the engine is up to 'normal' temps.

Back where youse guys have real winter, I realize this can't always be done, but if you're going to start it, do get it good and warm before shutting down.

And I guess four or five months of real winter can make some of you pretty grumpy. Not mentioning any names here.

.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Either drive them regularly through the winter or let them sit for the duration.  Starting every few weeks doesn't help and often causes other problems.

IMO, among those “other problems” is that if it’s cold, and especially if it’s cold and humid, you aggravate the condensation issue as your hot engine cools.

I’m in the let them hibernate camp.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.Back where youse guys have real winter, I realize this can't always be done, but if you're going to start it, do get it good and warm before shutting down.

And I guess four or five months of real winter can make some of you pretty grumpy. Not mentioning any names here.

.

But that's what I'm saying. Don't start it and let it idle in the garage or driveway.

If you start it, DRIVE it, get it good and hot, then put it away.

I got my Spyder out yesterday, it fired right up. Did it idle by itself at first? No, not until it warmed up.

And for the record, I'm not grumpy(if Mitch was indeed referencing me).

I just don't like false information being furthered into the abyss of the internet.

Speaking of condensation, I find that, in my climate of the rollercoaster of daily temps from the 20's to the 50's in spring, I get more condensation in the insulated garage because it's still in the 30's and 40's inside while it's 50's and humid outside.  Open up the two garage doors and, within minutes, everything is wet to the touch.  I try to open things up daily in the spring to get the inside acclimated.  It helps, but not enough as the floor slab stays colder for a couple of months (the garage is unheated).

@DannyP posted:

5 minutes isn't really long enough to get it hot. White smoke is normal during warmup.

Running them in the garage idling is the WORST thing you can do to your motor. Believe me, it never gets hot enough. Idling is bad, especially for an aircooled motor.

Please don't do this. Either leave it on the battery tender until spring or take it out and DRIVE it. Warm it up easy then drive it hard. You WANT to get it hot enough to boil out all the condensation out of the oil and crankcase.

@DannyP posted:

But that's what I'm saying. Don't start it and let it idle in the garage or driveway.

If you start it, DRIVE it, get it good and hot, then put it away.

I got my Spyder out yesterday, it fired right up. Did it idle by itself at first? No, not until it warmed up.

And for the record, I'm not grumpy(if Mitch was indeed referencing me).

I just don't like false information being furthered into the abyss of the internet.

X2 what Danny's saying here- an engine that's started, runs idling for 10 or 15 or even 20 minutes or ½ hour will NOT get hot enough to boil out any condensation that has formed inside the crankase.  If you're going to start it up, get in it and drive it 'till it's been at proper operating temps for a while!  If, when driving at this time of year you find the engine won't get up to proper operating temps while driving, pull off the breastplate over the exhaust to let the engine ingest some of the radiated exhaust heat and warmed up/spent cooling air.  The only guy I know still daily driving a Beetle year-round here in Vancouver does this every end of October/early November, throwing it (with the screws and screwdriver) behind the back seat and will be re-installing it shortly once the weather warms up (it's still a little un-seasonably cold here at the moment, with frost on the roofs at night and even on the grass in the morning).  His car warms up reasonably quickly, has great heat even at this time of year and never has that mayonnaise-y mung around the inside of the filler cap that forms when the engine isn't getting up to temps, even when driving up to the interior to visit his mum in well below freezing weather.

And for the record- at this time of year I might (only very occasionally, really only once in a blue moon and just for a weeeee-little while) get just a tiny bit grumpy.  Vancouver is a great place to live with both the ocean and mountains so close and a sunny day here is truly glorious, but in the winter when it rains for days (and sometimes even a couple weeks) on end and it's continually just a degree or 2 above freezing, you can understand that all those reports and beautiful pics (please try to edit out the palm trees and cactuses, it's just too depressing!) of Speedster top-down driving can be just a little hard to take...

Yoda out (time to go back to bed it is!)

On my one and only visit to Vancouver, on a flight that got diverted by mechanical trouble, we had a 5 hour layover while they were getting it fixed and got to go downtown and wander around a bit.  That was back in mid-April of 2001, and I must say....   It started foggy late morning but cleared in the afternoon and we had a great time.  Coffee is great, food is great, it's a wonderful, cosmopolitan "walking city" that makes you feel like you're wandering through the UN.  If I had known that IM was somewhere nearby I would have found them, too.  I was lucky to be traveling with a co-worker as curious as I am and wanted to DO something instead of hanging around the air terminal.   Vancouver's a lot of fun.

Got to put about 5 miles on in today … no smoke….oil leak fixed ( guy before me must have over filled the oil )

Also changed to valine 20-50 racing oil

this is a blast to drive!

"...this is a blast to drive!" - @356_2cool2slow

WOO HOO!! That's what we like to hear.

@DannyP posted:

I just don't like false information being furthered into the abyss of the internet.

Isn't that the real purpose of the internet these days?  It seems that the internet is a grand repository of falsehoods, deceits, lies, and mistruths.

Beyond that, it is kind of useful for some things.

And who knows if what I am saying is the truth...

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

Isn't that the real purpose of the internet these days?  It seems that the internet is a grand repository of falsehoods, deceits, lies, and mistruths.

Beyond that, it is kind of useful for some things.

And who knows if what I am saying is the truth...

Like the new in the US … all false and government controlled LOL

@MusbJim posted:

"...this is a blast to drive!" - @356_2cool2slow

WOO HOO!! That's what we like to hear.

Thank you all for your help with this car !!!!!!

@356_2cool2slow posted:

Like the new in the US … all false and government controlled LOL

If you say so.