Installing a Beck Windsheild on a CMC

I know that people have done this, myself and Cory attempted this yesterday and it appears that the post spread is larger then the stock CMC windsheild. It looks like I'm going to have to cut out the side of the dash to be able to get the billet angeled pieces to fit correctly. Cory I'm sure will chime in and maybe post some pics he took. Any thoughts??? Or has anyone done this without cutting the side of the dash.

Don't let Cory near your car with a sawzall; look what happened to his last one!!
ed

Brian,
If you still have the windshield posts from your old windshield, I suggest using them. I think the original CMC posts are better looking and not as BIG.
The Alum. ones from Beck are a tad different.

I have the same setup as you (will have). That is a Beck windshield assy on a non-Beck Speedster.

This is what I found when I tried using the Alum. Beck Posts:
- The studs that were included in the Alum. posts were at a different angles (in relation to the world or each other). They were 3/8-16 threaded stock and stripped or cross-threaded into the ends.
- I tried using them but they would have made the assy wider than the car. I tried re-tapping the 3/8-16 holes then bending the studs to better fit the car.
- After hacking up the post areas of the car and repairing them (twice) and still unsucessful I decided to use the Original Posts that I already had.

If you decide to use your CMC posts, you'll have to drill and tap the windshield frame where they attach.
I postioned the CMC posts on the Windshield frame making the post bottom (the end that rests on the body)the same dimension as the Beck posts (were).
There was enough room between the Winshield frame and the Glass and Rubber molding to CAREFULLY drill and tap the new holes.
I made sure the CMC posts were seated (full depth) to the Windshield frame to avoid the TOO WIDE problem I had with the Beck posts.

Good luck,
Greg B

Thanks a million Greg, one last question, did you use a gasket between the old post and the body of the car? My car never had a gasket just metal shims, which I don't want to put back in if I don't have to. Again thoughts?

Were your ears burning yesterday, Greg?
You correctly identified the problems without being there -- but we sure would have liked to talk to you during the installation attempt. It looks like the old CMC windshield frame has a few 'options' drilled into it for alignment, but it also had a series of ugly shims under the posts to make them level.
If we put Carey's posts in the same holes with no pressure on the new frame, they don't sit flush. We needed an overall width of 50.5 inches center to center for that windshield to sit the way it needed to, but the width isn't there without cutting into the bodywork below the dash. We were short on width by half an inch center to center, but the aluminum underdash spacer pieces wouldn't have fit either way.
I think the half-inch width difference needed to rotate the taco-looking post parts inward toward the front of the car would capture the windshield frame okay, but it puts the threaded leg of Carey's posts directly in line with the angle-molded part of the dash on the outboard side. ... And we'd have had to relief-cut the inner door jamb for it to sit flat. Either way, the body was gonna have to give; we stopped, figuring it would be best to have the right tools and qualified help. Here's how far we got:

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/paininthebug/DSCN0057.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/paininthebug/DSCN0058.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/paininthebug/DSCN0065.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/paininthebug/DSCN0067.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/paininthebug/DSCN0068.jpg

Consequently, I owe Brian a patch-job, driver's side, close to the base of the post there. And hey -- the 'run the drill backward to get through the Gelcoat' idea worked GREAT.
Problems also arose with the aluminum trim piece that gets riveted to the dash. The contour of the piece is easily-enough adjustable because of all the notches in it, but trying to figure out the new contour (so we could Sharpie it onto the car) was kind of dependent on getting it into the rubber seal on the windshield -- or mocking the windshield into the right place before drilling new pilot holes.
Can you have a look at your schedule, and maybe see your way over to Delta sometime in the near future? I think it'd be pretty cool if we could have maybe a half-dozen of us over there to help the young lad out. (We called Al yesterday, twice. We may have to engineer a meeting of the minds. ...)
Brian wants to have that car done in time to drive it to Carlisle ...

Man, my head is spinning after reading all that! Brian, for what it's worth, I replaced my windshield this summer and there were some "gaskets" between the bottom of the posts and the body. One of them had rotted out so I got a pair of "windshield post rubber" from JPS, which I of course forgot to put in as I was installing the new glass - duh! You are welcome to them if you want them, and if I can find them, but they are just little pieces of half round heavy black foam rubber, someting you could probably pick up at auto store or hardware store.

As far as the install goes, good luck. If you guys need and extra pair of hands, and my schedule permits, let me know and I'm in for the next attempt.

does the post fit on the body then? i would have to think so..

COREY, BRIAN,
Sure, I'm retired so I could easily schedule a visit there. It's about 65 miles from where I live, just past the Harley Plant, right?

Brian,
I think there needs to be a gasket between the metal post and the fiberglass body. I didn't have any that looked like the right one, so I just cut a strip out of some left over (Semi-soft) rubber molding and squeezed it under the post as I CAREFULLY, and EVENLY, and CAUTIOUSLY, and GINGERYLY, SLOWLY tightend everything up.
Initially I only tightend everything enough to hold all the gaskets in place and the bottom windshield rubber was still on the windshield and engaged properly with the Alum strip attached to the body.
I let it sit like that for a day before I worked up enough nerve to finish tightening everything. Even then, I left it a little loose in fear of stressing it.
Next anxiety comes when you attach the top bow to the Windshield frame and stretch the top to it.

Greg

Okay I got the windsheild fit in tonight, I do need to fab up the mounting for the post. What I have to do is bend the threaded portion of the post in toward the car a couple of degrees. Then I'll re-use the socket that came off the old post, which the angle is going to work great. Then I have to fab up a piece of 1/16 metal to cover the holes that are in the dash from the old post holes and the new post holes. Weld that to the socket, then I can tighten everything down. The windsheil as it sits now, seems lose, like it's sitting lose in the rubbers. So when I have an extra set of eyes I'll start to adjust everything and tighen it for the final time.

The good news is the hole that me a Cory drilled in that we thougth was going to show is covered. I'll snap a few pics once I start to fab everything up. Plus I need to get some kind of gasket under the post....

Brian

Thanks for all the comments.

Greg, CSI-Delta, PA uncovered the truth behind the mystery -- the old top IS what cracked the windshield. A little forensic analysis with a rolled up piece of aluminum foil showed where the stress points were likely to be as the top shrank in cold weather or when the tensioner levers were tugged up tight and ... Yup.
No doubt about it.

Brian,
The my posts did in fact fit although I was only replacing the galss and not the entire windshield assembly. When all was said and done with mine the new glass didn't fit as "evenly" as the original but tight enough. I think that any of these "older builds" are subject ot some differences as a result of time, wear & tear, and workmanship so be careful not to seek too much perfection, so to speak. And as mentioned by someone (Greg?) fitting the top is a little nerve racking, I loosened the clips as much as possible and gradually tightened them so the top fit a little tighter each time. My top is by no means "tight", it's old and flimsy but serves it's puropse when needed. When I was going through this myself someone mentioned fitting the front bow by grinding the groove gradually to fit the winshield frame until you get a easy on/off fit therefore avoiding additional stress on the glass. I guess it all depends on what you're looking for? Someday I may just have a new top made with a more flexible fabric. Best of luck.

Just a quick question as I had similar problems when I pulled my windshield to install my dash pad, and Peter McEwan is about to install new upper/lower windshield gaskets, as his original ones fit poorly. He got his new gaskets from Special Editions.

When we were installing my windshield, we noticed the lip on the front of the bottom gasket, but when the glass is put in place and sitting nicely, the angle of the aluminum "L" bracket riveted to the body and the angle of the slot where that lip is don't line up for beans. We tried re-positioning the glass all sorts of ways, but that aluminum bracket sits at close to 90 degrees, while the lip angle is more like 45 degrees. We struggled with trying to get that lip on there for half an hour, but it never seemed to fit right, and when we did get it on there, it seemed to make for leading edge of the glass sit 1/4" too high from where it was before

We finally said "to hell with it", and positioned the gasket fully behind the aluminum bracket (as I've noticed in a number of other car pictures) and carefully filled in the small remaining gap with black Silicon caulk (the gasket very closely fits the shape of the aluminum trim). When we did that, the glass "sits" right, is fully seated all across, doesn't rock anywhere, and the left and right rear "wings" seem to hold it up and in position correctly.

So now my question; Do most of you figure out a way to make the lower lip in the gasket fit over the aluminum trim piece, or do you just push the gasket up against the trim?

I'm thinking of replacing my glass with one for a Beck (mine has weird distortions in the plastic laminate within) but if a Beck-to-CMC conversion is a PITA then I'll just live with it (it's not super-bad, just annoying).

Gordon,

I also positioned the bottom rubber behind the aluminum piece.

Mike

While you guys are diagnosing all of these windshield issues, the aluminum channel/frame over the top of my windshield has always been a little twisted. In other words, standing in front of the car, when you look at the top of the windshield, the frame is tight to the windshield on the left side but about 1/4" away from the windshield on the right side. I've never installed the rubber gasket across the top of the windshield because I was afraid the pressure to straighten the twist might harm the windshield. Has anyone run into this? How can it be untwisted?

Gordon, All the speedster windshields are the same. The after-market repro's are a bit thinner than the original glass. Hence the "looser" fit in the rubber.

Thanks NJ Bruce. I thought that, too.

East Coast Bruce: Just take the top frame off and torque it whatever way you need to to get it straight and then replace it, along with a new upper rubber gasket. The frame is made of Aluminum, so you have to be careful about just how far you twist it, but it is easily bent. If one side is lifted directly away from the glass (outwardly), then you'll have to reduce the arc of that curve by very gently bending the frame. This is best done by using a piece of 1/4" plywood cut to the shape that you want and then forming the frame to it - that will reduce the risk of over-bending it and distorting the channel. If you have to bend it a lot, most likely you'll have to re-compress the channel with a pair of pliers or gently tap it with a small hammer (be sure to insulate the jaws with several layers of duct tape and use the plywood "buck" to keep from crushing it).

If it is twisted, i.e; the channel isn't staight (parallel to the line of the glass), then just grasp the channel where it looks like it needs to be twisted, (leather gloves are in order, here) and twist it around until it lines up correctly. this is a trial-and-error process, so take your time.

Also, when you replace the top frame channel, don't try to get it too tight. I just push the channel down by hand on each side until it won't go any farther and then put the screws in at the corner posts. You can mark the locations with a marker, then remove the channel to drill them so you won't hit the glass.

BTW: Got this gasket source from Carey:

356 Windshield Gaskets from International Mercantile.

The upper rubber is P/N M25 and the lower is M109.

They are approx. $18 ea. from them.

800-356-0012

BTW: While you have the top frame off, you might consider adding a third latch bump-out somewhere near the middle, so you can add a third latch to the header later on. Adding that took me about 10 minutes by hand with a hand sheetmetal bender.

Bruce (NJ) can you please share the info about the maker for the windshield glass repro for the Speedsters? Thanks, I just broke mine while reinstalling after having my car painted, and I need a new one.

Thanks

All of my speedster projects to date have the windshield base rubber installed behind the aluminum.
I use a bead of GM windshield adhesive along the underside of the base rubber, I also apply a light amount with a Q' Tip into the U portion of the base rubber being careful not to get this stuff on your hands as it's nearly non-removable. You can also add a bit of the adhesive into the top U channel.
Once this adhesive sets up it secures the base rubber to the aluminum trim and the glass to the base rubber ..a solid and secure fit.
On some speedster bodies you may have to shim ( hardwood hammer head wedges work perfect) the rearward-trailing edge of the windshield post to allow for it the set securely on to the cowling.
Important: Make sure that the two small post to upper trim screws are not too long.
Only snug the windshield posts and mirror support rod into place.

East Coast Bruce,
RE: Twisted windshield frame:
My advise:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it! (you may untwist the frame at the expense of the glass)
My experience:
Building my Classic Speedster (Aprox same era as yours), I broke several windshield glasses working with a twisted frame. Even after realizing the twist and untwisting it, I managed to break another. ... and I Was Being Careful!
I ended up buying a complete W/S assembly from Beck.
Yeah! add it up. My windshield install was expensive. not to mention the filling of the holes for the posts and the alum. base strip several times before getting it right, or the time it took to get DHL to cover the cost of the one they broke for me from JPS in Calif.

Greg B

Careful with this WS frame, it may not be aluminum. But even if it is, it may not be bendable if it was hardened.
My TIG welderman told me the CMC frame wasnt bendable or weldable.

https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=9689

I have a frame that I took off my cmc. it is a frame for a cabrio. It is just sitting in my garage right now. I remember it being rather pliable, but I got a new windshield from thunder ranch years back, so I could use their front header bow. It is working out for me. Let me know if you are interested in the frame and rubber that I have.

Just about a month ago, I took my WS off to install my dash cover, and while I had it off I wanted to put a third bump-out in the frame so I could add a third latch (more-or-less near the center).

I was in Beaufort, SC at the time, and didn't have my usual set of shop tools, so I took the frame to a welding and fabrication place in town (Pender Bros.) that works with all sorts of metals all the time. They assured me that it was aluminum (which is TIG weldable, if you know what you're doing) and that another lip could be bent into it "No Problem!"

Took three guys with hand pliers (jaws covered with duct tape) to put the proper bend in. Took about 10 minutes (5 minutes of talking about it and wrapping the pliers with tape) and it looks just like the other two locations.

When Peter McEwan and I were putting the windshield back in, we didn't like the top frame fit in a couple of places and gently bent it this way and that (off the car) until it fit the way we wanted as we installed it. I would avoid bending those big corners on the top, as for those you should use an hydraulic bending jig specially made for the radius of the curve AND the width of the channel. You could make a plywood buck to do it, but you should have some experience at doing that sort of thing, OR be prepared for trial and error. I wouldn't want to try the plywood route.

Anyway, while it CAN be done, remember that there are several compound curves going on with that frame all at the same time. Mess around with one, and you may end up messing around with more to get it back to "right".

Wait until after Carlisle, when you can wander the show field and see how your present fit compares to the other cars there. Yours might not be so bad after all!!

You can alter the upper windshield frames using various sized pieces of rubber hose both in the channel and over the outsides, with patience, you can make minor upper frame changes.