Insurance (Again)

Yipes. Hagerty has been good to me, I'd hate to see them shy away from this segment of the market.

@John Nickerson '57 Beck posted:

I wonder what's behind Hagerty's decision.

My buddy Ric was an appraiser/adjuster for State Farm for 30 years. I’ll ask him if he’s got any idea.

Off the top of my head I’d take a WAG that it relates to how little damage it takes to write off a fiberglass speedster vs, say, a 65 Mustang or a 72 Land Cruiser.

OTOH, my experience with Haggerty gave me the impression that they have strict definitions of what constitutes a “Classic” car. Back in 2009 when I found out that my Grundy 968 policy actually covered nothing but driving to/from a car show or a parade,  Haggerty told me they wouldn’t cover it as a classic, but in order to even insure it I had to insure my DD with them as well, and they’d cover it as a second vehicle. But with no agreed value.

I’m really happy with my SF policy. They cover all my “regular” cars, and the Spyder and the 968 with agreed value “collector” policies w/3,000 miles per year driving allowance, no restrictions.

If I were speculating (and we all are, except for @Marty Grzynkowicz), I'd think it would have to do with the actuarial numbers - the loss rate.

Consider that the vast preponderance of cars are insured with a $0 deductible, and that these things catch fire with some regularity, and that a FG (or aluminum) car catching fire is more likely than not going to be a total loss.

I think Hagerty was probably willing to write policies when cars were universally valued under $40k. With the rise of BaT, now every dude with a gelcoat CMC widebody wants to be insured for $75k.

I can almost guarantee the loss rate is not insignificant.

Ill check with Hagerty to see what they say. I just wrote a 323K Aston DBS with them. 

@Stan Galat right, I hadn’t even considered fires.

Being that I have had a total loss with Hagerty, I may be able to help here.

In 2016 my Spyder was insured for 35k. I had a collision in March of 2016 that was a total loss. After the buyback, I think I received 31.5k or so. They only took 10% for the buyback fee. I stripped the old car CLEAN, cut up and disposed of the body and frame. I bought a new body and frame that was painted by Greg's guys. I sent him some parts, trailing arms, spindles, column, steering box.

When it was finished and shipped 6 months later, I started assembly. Motor, trans, brakes, etc. I ordered new gauges along with a cable shifter. I had the car done 6 months later in time for Carlisle 2017. A bit over a year and back in business I was.

I was decidedly in the black in the bank, IF you don't count my labor. I really enjoyed building the car again, so I didn't count the labor. I knew exactly what NOT to do, and I was able to fix/change a lot of things that I didn't like about the first car.

I retained my insurance the entire time, and have bumped the coverage up over the years. I think I'm at 45k now, which is probably still too low.

Hagerty was an absolute pleasure to deal with. The totaled car was in my garage and the adjuster came right to my house. He saw the tweaked tubular frame and that EVERY panel on the car was cracked except one: the passenger door.

I wonder if the ban is Speedsters only or if it is ALL replicas? I also have my Cayman with them, several years ago they added any year Porsche, not just classics or antiques.

I'm sorry to hear about this, I'll make sure I keep mine "grandfathered".

This must be a recent policy change with Hagerty.  When I insured the Coupe with them in 2021 they were all too happy to accept it with an agreed value of $65k and no severe limitations on use.

Busy today guys, but I’ll get with one of the underwriters tomorrow

I am in the process of switching my regular cars to State Farm. They were willing to do an agreed policy on the Speedster but it was more than Grundy. So, I am keeping my Grundy coverage.

Loss data is maybe half the story. The other half is investment income. Insurance companies all operate just slightly like that one house flipper guy you remember from the early 2000s: low mortgage rates mean buy buy buy, invest, invest, invest, leverage, leverage, leverage.

Interest rate increases mean instant bankruptcy.

The difference is, instead of borrowing from a hard money guy, insurance companies use our premium payments to make money. During boom times, they write a lot of policies to get a lot of premiums because that money makes money in the market.

During not-boom times (or high interest rate times, etc.) they cut back.

It's not just property/casualty insurers either. Since they all run the same basic business model, they all react similarly to macroeconomic trends. Any minute now we'll be seeing new bills proposed to cut down medical malpractice awards, citing the "out of control trial attorneys," etc.

You can set your watch by it.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

I am in the process of switching my regular cars to State Farm. They were willing to do an agreed policy on the Speedster but it was more than Grundy. So, I am keeping my Grundy coverage.

When you get your policy, read it very carefully. Like I said, I dropped my Grundy coverage when I read mine and called for clarification. The mileage limit was only 1,500 annually, which I was ambivalent about because that’s about what I did anyway, but a clause about “Special Events” meant that if I drove one of my cars to dinner it wasn’t covered. To say nothing about hooning around in the canyon.

Perhaps this was a state by state exemption, I don’t know. I never really read my policy when I first got it in NV.  It was only when I renewed in NY that I noticed it.

Dave, that was why I went with Hagerty instead of Grundy. Even though Hagerty was almost double the premium.

never had problem with Grundy...$5200,hit run on 65 tiger...Had a British cycle insured BSA bought anothr cycle Norton 850 and they wouldnt insure it because of my garage? sent pics of garage and stillno..switched to Geico and insured both bikes for same amout as one

I had Hagerty write a speedster for one of my clients, literally, yesterday.  Not sure why they wouldn't write yours...

@chines1 posted:

I had Hagerty write a speedster for one of my clients, literally, yesterday.  Not sure why they wouldn't write yours...

That is curious. Maybe something changed in the state of Maine's regulations for John, the OP? I can't imagine there are a lot of replicas in that state.

It could be similar to the DMV, the answer you get depends on who you get on the phone.

@barncobob posted:

never had problem with Grundy...$5200,hit run on 65 tiger...Had a British cycle insured BSA bought anothr cycle Norton 850 and they wouldnt insure it because of my garage? sent pics of garage and stillno..switched to Geico and insured both bikes for same amout as one

I don't know about you guys, but I can't follow what Bob is saying here.

Here's a translation in real English. I hope I get it right.

I've never had a problem with Grundy. One time I had a hit and run accident on my Triumph Tiger motorcycle and they paid me $5,200. I had a BSA motorcycle insured with British Cycle and then bought a Norton 850 bike and Grundy wouldn't insure it because of some fault or deficiency with my garage. I sent them photos of the garage and they still wouldn't provide insurance. I cancelled with Grundy and then bought insurance from Geico and got a discount for two bikes and the price for two was the same as one with Grundy.

The temptation to bastardize the English language seems great these days.

@David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Here's a translation in real English. I hope I get it right.

I've never had a problem with Grundy. One time I had a hit and run accident on my Triumph Tiger motorcycle and they paid me $5,200. I had a BSA motorcycle insured with British Cycle and then bought a Norton 850 bike and Grundy wouldn't insure it because of some fault or deficiency with my garage. I sent them photos of the garage and they still wouldn't provide insurance. I cancelled with Grundy and then bought insurance from Geico and got a discount for two bikes and the price for two was the same as one with Grundy.

The temptation to bastardize the English language seems great these days.

Or just too lazy to type it all out.

@Robert M posted:

Or just too drunk to type it all out.

Fixed it.

Back to Hagerty, I know in Hawaii they sub out the policy to a more local insurance company. We got a small scrape on the passenger door and called the Hagerty number. They had the local (about 100 miles away) agent call me back to handle the steps needed to get it fixed. Absolutely no hassle. I got a quote and emailed it to the agent along with pictures of the door. A few days later a check for the full repair cost arrived from the Hagerty corporate office.

I'd defer to the superior insight from folks like Marty, but maybe there's a 'local' company that doesn't want the new policies?

I recently switched the Speedster from Erie (long time insurer with them, all my cars and house, plus pers liability) to Hagerty.  My Erie agent actually suggested that I do so when I pinged them about raising the replacement value.  I note on my Hagerty  invoices that the carrier is a company not named Hagerty.  Also just a few months ago, I upped the declared value to match the market trends.  I was asked to send in evidence of recent sales of similar, and the SOC here helped me with that and sent in lots of pictures and recent sales prices.  I fwd all that to the Hagerty underwriters and got my bump-up.  And yes it's kinda expensive.  We really need to understand exactly what has happened here with Nick.  That Hagerty has just slammed the door on Speedster replicas sounds very odd indeed.  Need more data.

I've been happy with Hagerty, the coverage, and the latitude I get in terms of when/where I can drive my car.  They are a 'drivers' insurance company, from my perspective.

I would feel confident driving across the country, as long as I was going to attend a car event.

Just got off the phone with Deshaun(Hagerty).  No moratorium on 356 Replica's.  Usually get knocked for other reasons.  Value to high, not proper garage, not having a daily driver, driving record, etc. 

@Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Just got off the phone with Deshaun(Hagerty).  No moratorium on 356 Replica's.  Usually get knocked for other reasons.  Value to high, not proper garage, not having a daily driver, driving record, etc.

Thanks, Marty!

Is Declared  Value the same as Agreed Value?

@Michael McKelvey posted:

Is Declared  Value the same as Agreed Value?

I would say no.

Maybe when El Frazoo said Declared Value he meant Agreed Value.

My Grundy policy covers "Limited Personal Use".  I wonder how limited that is and what those uses are.

I think we went around this barn a little recently: declared vs agreed.  There seems to be a difference, and don't exactly recall the legalese here.   The way I understand it, regardless of what the name is, if your car is totaled the $$ number you agree to and is in the policy is the upper limit to what they will pay you.  Others here will know more.

What we mostly went around on was Stated Value vs Agreed Value.

Interesting, I went on line to Hagerty again a couple minutes ago and I got a quote. It's a couple hundred more than my Grundy quote for the same Declared Value and Coverage amounts. Grundy isn't too much more than what USAA is charging for my Speedster, and I think I'd have a hard time getting $45K from them for a totaled car. So I guess it's Grundy unless there's a better option. I know we all have our preferences and biases but I'm happy to listen and learn.

Thanks all for your input.

John

@Michael McKelvey posted:

Is Declared  Value the same as Agreed Value?

Definitely not. In "Declared Value" you tell them what it's worth and it depreciates from there. In "Agreed Value" you and your insurance company "agree" on what's it worth and it stays there until you change it. If it gets total they pay you what the two of you "agreed" it was worth.

If you have a hard time remembering, I remember like this:

I can say anything I want, but the insurance company is the one that needs to "agree". I can "state" or "declare" a figure, but they have to "agree" to it for it to mean anything.

Stated value is the same as declared value. It's you making a statement, not the insurance company agreeing with you.

@Robert M, that is exactly my understanding. I think some people are saying Declared value when what they have is Agreed value, at least in the case of Haggerty.

Maybe there is no such thing as Declared value, only Stated and Agreed value.

I would really rather have Hagerty than Grundy since they are based in my state but there is such a cost difference.