Internal distributor oil leak?

I will gen a new thread, as this question posted elsewhere ain't getting read. [Either that, or nobody here has a clue, and that has never happened yet.] I believe the internal oil seal on my (thought to be) new distributor is leaking. Questions for the resident experts are as follows: what is this seal and is it inspectable/repairable by normal shade-tree mechanics efforts? If this seal has been defeated, is it possible that such is due to too high oil pressure as opposed to a faulty seal?

FYI: (1) When you put your fingers under the dist housing, they come back w/ oil. (2) I have a new external seal (O-ring) and will replace same soon to see if leaking is fixed thereby. Existing external O-ring looks fine under cursory inspection, but I will put in a new one anyway and see what happens. Will post results of this experiment when accomplished.

There isn't really a seal in the distributor, just a series of inserts/sleeves and a reverse cut on the shaft that acts as a channel/groove to force the oil downwards.

Replace the "O" ring for sure, they harden up all the time. The distributor is such a tight fit in the case that leaks don't happen, and the oil "O' ring is almost just exra insurance.

Before bolting the clamp down, check for excessive play in the case hole. Once bolted down, check the distributor shaft for side-to-side movement. There ought to be absolutely none at all.

If everything is as it ought to be, try a felt battery terminal "washer" between the clamp and the case. And vent the HELL out of that engine, 'cause you've got way too much internal pressure.

Luck,

TC

Hey Kelly.....
Had an oil leak at the distributer problem on a new CB motor with a deep sump. Turned out that I was running too much oil. If my dipstick shows less than a half qt. low, it leaks. Just that simple.

OK. Crank case pressure could be at fault here. New engine = some blow-by = more pressure. The case is vented into one of the air filters via the oil fiuller pipe. Assume this is normal practice and good enough. I am at about 700 mi and the initial smoke from engine has quieted down quite a bit, so it is getting run-in. Oil leak at this location has been steady from day one. JPS is sending a new distributor, so will be able to see if that makes a diff, if replacing the orig O-ring (which looks fine, very supple) w/ a new one has no effect.

Sounds very familiar. I did the O ring drill, then CB Performance sent me a new distributor. The second one leaked just like the 1st one. It was only after a couple thousand miles that I got wise to the ways of my new motor. They told me not to over-fill it with oil, but I sure didn't want ruin my new turn key stroker!
BTW, doesn't JPS use CB motors?

Earnie,

According to the JPS build sheet, there are a lot of CB parts in their motors and stuff he calls Scat. Believe he uses a motor builder local to LA area. I have his mame and addr somewhere, but don't remember this minute. I have no extra sump, and check the oil carefully, it has never been over-filled, and w/ the leak, is going down a little bit. Running about 1/2 qt down now, and still leaking. It would seem plausible that my crank case pressure is up a bit, being a new engine, and I will check this soon. Might even find a way to measure that pressure. BTW: What was your fix? Or did you get one? If you run correct oil levels, is all AOK?

And I wonder what "Vent the hell out it." means, exactly. If case is open to carb input, how much pressure could there be?

Kelly...
My motor is a 2110 mid level performance, moderate RPM engine. I have an external cooler and oil filter, plus an added qt. and a half in the sump. This being said, I have confidence that there is plenty of oil in my system. Having an after market oil pressure gage also boosts my comfort level for running a half qt. low.
Depending your motor size and performance design, perhaps you do need to increase your crank case breathing ability.
try this: http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=238

Yeah, I was thinking increased crankcase breather capability, too.

That CB version is as good as any, but I upgraded the hoses to at least 1/2" ID (I'm using 5/8" on mine, just to keep from having any restriction going from the crankcase to the air cleaners. I have an EMPI version of the breather that is a vertical box that mounts in place of the oil filler cap on the alternator pedastal.

I used to get a bit of blow-by from the crank pulley slinger, but that was about the only place. I still get a tiny bit from there, but only if I've been hammering it on the Freeway for a few hours steady. Around town - nuthin... I figure that a little oil coming out there is better than some type of crud getting in....

gn

"And I wonder what "Vent the hell out it." means, exactly."

For the bigger motors, we always add vents to the valve covers, fuel pump block-off plate and an additional vent to the generator/alternator stand. These are connected to the carb stacks (air cleaners will do) and a remote breather/collector box .

You may not all of these, but you do need additional venting outlets.

Luck.

Holy Swiss Cheese, Batman, you want holes everywhere. I have one large D hose, much like the one in Ernie's pic, from engine to carb. I notice that while the hose is large, the plastic fitting that hooks to the air filter top is smaller. Would you run additioanl vents (e.g., from the VCs) up to one of those Bugpack thingies, and then over to the carb? PS, despite earnest efforts to get good VC gaskets and seal these seams up just so, looks like maybe I'm getting some oil out here too.

And wrt running, almost all of my miles so far have been up and down the interstate: back from Tom's in Easton, over to No. Va., RT to Alan's in the rain. So this is mostly running at speed for hours w/ a relatively new mill. All sort of points to high case pressure, not properly relieved, so oil pushing out. Hmmm. Need to do more ponderating.

This is the way I have been running vent for some time... it works.
Note the two black hoses in the base of the vent box, they run to the valve covers. It's important to locate the hoses as shown to have it work correctly.
The small filters are at the highest location then the air cleaner hoses and lastly the valve cover return lines allows any accumulated oil to drain back down and not fill the breather box.and not fill the breather box.

Mine's the same as Alan's - tho not as purty - since it was, in fact, his design. I'm still leaking, but I'm convinced (for now) that it's the overfull thing.

Do exactly what Alan did! You'll need to place the barbs in the correct position on the valve covers, but otherwise it practically assembles itself.

If you're running a remote electric fuel pump, this is a nice addition:

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5625

"oil coming out of the weep hole at bottom"
That's exactly what happened in my case of running too much oil.
I hope this helps you.

The jury is in: after replacing the external seal (O-ring) -- not w/out some difficulty as that sumbitch goes in tight! -- the distributor still leaks. First clue was inspection of the distributor after I removed it and it lay on the work bench for a couple of days. When I picked it up, oil had collected along the inner body up at the big (top) end -- which oil had come from down inside. Anyway, I put it all back w/ a new O-ring, and ran the car around a few minutes (tough duty, but someone had to do it) and observed the bottom of the dist w/ a mirror afterwards: oil coming out of the weep hole at bottom. Also oil all over the tins, again. JPS is sending a replacement dist'r. Also, I checked the case pressure and it does not seem excessive at idle. Only good way to do this is w/ the engine at load, so not sure how to manage that measurement, but will think about it. The various vent systems are still all about getting the case connected up to the carb intake. The line needs to be able to handle air flow in both directions, so adding a filter makes some sense, especially for the dune buggy / off-road set. All the little boxes do is provide a convient place to manifold several hoses. Also, I guess they serve to separate the liquid oil (if there is any) and allow it to drain back into the engine. All told, these features are good, but if the case is generating high pressure, I do not see how the extra equipment is going to stop that.

From other's experience, seems like the new dist will not make a diff, and that high case pressure is what's going on here. Perhaps this will settle some as the engine wears in. Having this oil all over the place, and down in the lower quarters (exhaust pipes) is a pain. I'd hate to have to live w/ that, which is what some others seem to be doing -?-

PS: JPS says all the extra venting of the engine is not needed. Says he has played w/ this on these big engines plenty, and can't tell a difference. FWIW.

I am having the same problem BUT, only after thinking my oil was low and adding some. Tough to know where you stand with an external oil cooler. I'm thinking I have mine overfilled too. I was fine until I decided I diidn't think oil near the lower mark was good.

Ernie, did it disapper after some time or did you drain some oil off?

Kelly ,

I was leaning toward the O ring sorry for the misdirection.
Do take a look at the previous posted pix this is the way I route the case venting as this does work.

Well Tom I took the "slob" approach. 3 times now, I've let it drip until the oil level is just a little more than a half a qt. down on the dipstick. When that level is reached, the thing dries up and I wash away the mess.
Next oil change, I promise to be more careful when filling it!

Alan, no problem, amigo. First, you go for the easy stuff, then work your way up until you get to the root of it. Been traveling for work, and some fun this week and next, so further reports will be in a while.

PS: was in San Diego this week and met up w/ MUSBJIM. We shared a couple of beers and a dinner and swapped lies about our cars, past and present. Terrific guy; had a fine evening.

Kelly -

The restaurant where we had dinner called and they want their silverware back! LOL!

Geesh TC, a lot of work gathering this great info ...probably did all of this via a lap top during the morning constitutional :)

Kelly,

I was thinking about your distributor dilemma last night . . . I know, I know, I've got a life on back order but it won't be delivered 'till next week, so in the mean time . . .

I took a distributor apart and shot some pics of the internals to show you what is going on with yours.

There IS no seal or gasket inside the distributor, the tight tolerance between the lower shaft and the upper and lower brass sleeves are what prevents most of the case oil from working up the shaft.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/insidedistributorbody.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Oilhole.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Distbodyandshaft.jpg

This fit is supposed to be SO tight, in fact, that a small groove and oil hole are machined into the distributor body to provide lubrication.

Any as the oil travels up the shaft (because of the rotation) it is continually pushed back down the shaft into the pocket provided between the upper and lover sleeves, by essentially a variation on the Archimedes Screw principle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Screwclose-up.jpg

There are pockets cast into the bottom of the distributor housing with small drain holes to drain condensation/moisture, not oil, away from the advance mechanism. This mechanism is kept lubricated by adding a drop or two of oil to the felt pad at the very top of the shaft, under the rotor.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/insidedistributorbody.jpg

The drive cog, at the very bottom of the shaft has a spacer between it and the bottom of the distributor body to keep the assembly somewhat tightly together. The small spring at the bottom of the distributor hole/on top of the distributor drive gear in the case pushes upwards on the whole thing, further sealing the shaft against leaks.


If excess crankcase pressure was your problem, you would have oil coming out of the dip stick opening and, most likely, the pushrod tube seals and valve cover gaskets as well as the distributor. There's also a good chance that there would be a leak behind the crank pulley which also uses an Archimedes screw-like machining to force the oil back into the case. If you have a little extra oil in the case, it shouldn't be a problem, a LOT might be. Lowering the volume to below factory specs shouldn't be necessary.

If adjusting the oil level is the ONLY solution, you REALLY ought to get a mini-sump/tuna can to keep a sufficient amount of oil surrounding the pick-up tube.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C12%2D3051%2D10

BUT, nothing should really be necessary if the distributor was a good one. Pressure can be relieved, oil level ought not to be an issue. But you ought to try to locate an early Bosch German-Made 009 in as good a condition as you can find, or a low mileage SVAD if your carb(s) have a vacuum port and replace the after-market one that you have. The new 009's aren't worth a dime, the ones with the "BOSCH" but without the "Germany" casting on the bottom would be a second choice. Your first choice, the one that you want, is a distributor made by Bosch in Germany. They're trouble free!

Anyway, hope that some of this helps out a bit, I had a little spare time and no life as yet, so . . .

tc,

Well, it's going to take me a mo to digest all of that. Not sure what brand eq't is in there now. Don't recall seeing any Bosche labels, but don't quote me. I think this is a "009" w/ electronic pick-up. Other than that, I can't say. Appreciate your recommendation about dist'r makers, and what works. Meanwhile, JPS engine builder is sending me another dist'r, to replace the one I have now. so that will be next step. Also, I am out of town til about 9/7, so my "car life" is on hold 'til then.

Again, I appreciate all the skinny on how this goes. I was going to take my dist apart and find out for myself, but decided against it for now. I am not completely winging it here, as the effort to get this right is still sort of a warranty issue w/ JPS, so he sends new parts and I do the wrenching, for now.

"Meanwhile, JPS engine builder is sending me another dist'r, to replace the one I have now."

Look on the bottom of the bell casting when it arrives. They'll be a tapered portion where the bell joins the stem. There are two small bosses cast into that area. If there is no lettering, the distributor is JUNK! Made in Mexico or India, and poorly made at that. If one boss has "BOSCH" cast into it, it's from Brazil, not that good either due to inconsistent quality control. I would TRY it, it might work-or not, but resign myself to replacing it later. If the bosses have "BOSCH" cast into one, and "Germany" cast into the other one, you've got something that was made to work well, will last forever, and is a real quality component.

Also, check the bottom of the distributor that you already have for the cast in lettering. Why not . . .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Distbodyandshaft-1.jpg

I hope the distributor replacement solves Kelly's issue. I have a type1 w/CB slimline sump and external filter/full-flow. It seems to be very happy when it reads a half-quart low on the stick. I have vented valve covers and a home-made breather. No leaks anymore, no blow by in the engine compartment, either. Basically a 2" diameter tube about 2 ft. long, a couple of baffles with 1/4" swiss cheese holes. One fitting to the passenger side carb from the top, three inputs. Both valve covers and one from the oil filler. The unit is set at about a 40 degree angle, with a drain back into the universal case oil fill block-off. The valve covers I use are great, stainless steel Scat 5-tabs. The tabs completely prevent the dreaded gasket suck and require no sealant for gaskets. I just put a little axle grease on both sides of the gasket, and slap it on. It is important to get good valve cover vents also, don't buy Empi, they are junk! I would love to TIG on some Stainless AN fittings, but settled for bolt-ons with copper oil plug washers on both sides.

Well my problem continues and it seems like the breather box addition is warranted. What really burns me is the fact that this was NOT done to start with by JPS.

Tom/Kelly,
Trust "Merklin the Magician" breather box configuration it works ...hose nipple placement on the breather box is critical...see my above posting, email me your questions ~Alan

I personally would listen to Alan, he probably has more Speedster knowledge than the rest of us put together. Anything more than a mild 1776 needs the valve covers IMHO. Especially the engines you guys got, Tom and Kelly, 2332 was it?

Just be advised - if you overfill it, breather or not, you'll still leak.

If you put 7.5 quarts in a four-quart case and then run your car at 5000 rpms for fifteen minutes, you'll blow the top right off the thing.
Ask Alan how I know.
Heh, heh.

yeah....does wet, soggy mess mean anything??

At least you had "help" from "Larry, the Cable Guy's" first cousin....

Alan,

WHat are the "mouse ears"on the junction box? They look like wee air filters that would allow the box to breath, as may be nec'y. Further suppose they are fit w/ one-way valves that would allow air in, but not gas out. And the hose size, ID?? I am thinking I will be going this route. WHat supply house would you reccommend?

PS to Danny: Tom and Kelly both have 2332s, basically CB engines, as I understand it. Also, at Carlisle I saw your slanted breather tube/box thing, although I think I did not study it like I might have. Did not know I would need to understand this business so well at that time . . .

"Ears" are small air filters with a rubber 7/16 base hole, fits over the breather box nipples, you'll need a total of 6 at the breather box.
I use a bit of contact cement on each nipple and just tighten the hose clamp...Available on the Advance Auto racks. One way valving is not necessary with this set up. Hose is 1/2 ID.
The two high position nipples in the box are for the small air filters, the next two for the air cleaner tops with the two coming out of the base to the valve covers to allow for any accumulated oil in the box to drain back down.

Alan,

10-4. I'm on it.