inverse 009

hello all,
I am in the process of adjusting the valves etc. When I pulled the top of the distributor top off the timing mark is at 11 o'clock not 5 o'clock! The coil is mounted on the rear inside of the body, and the #1 spark lead is still in its usual position (i.e 5 o'clock). Is this a problem? Is it ok to set the timing on #3 and mark the bottom of the pulley?

Was your engine running fine before you started the tune-up?
if so you distributer drive is probably 180 out.

it was running fine before. 180 degrees out is just what I thought! So I just need to mark the bottom of the pulley now and time it at #3 or still at #1?

I really don't know what it requires, but I think I'd find out and get it right. Remove, or have the drive removed, and reinstalled correctly. That will remove all guess work and all questions.

I had this happen one time when I dropped the dist drive in 180 out once I figured out what I had did, just switched the 4 wires around and let it alone.

Careful there Rich! If I understand you correctly:
Your crank pulley is at TDC;
Your dist is ponting at 11:00;
Your #1 plug wire is in the 5:00 cap location;
The car runs fine.

If those are all true, then your crank pulley needs to be turned another 360 degress around to the next TDC. Then the distributor will be pointing at 5:00. And then the timing will be at TDC of the compression stroke of the #1 cylinder.

Currently, if your description is true, at 11:00 on the distributor you are at TDC of the EXHAUST stroke of the #1 cylinder. This is definately NOT the place to be making valve adjustments for the #1.

Remember the crank turns TWO times for each one revolution of the distributor.

Mark

In most instances, especially with a 09 distriutor, it's not necessary to remove the distributor gear and reposition it unless you still are using points and a condenser. With a points eliminator by Pertronix, Compufire, Empi etc, no condenser is used so therefore you can rotate the distriubtor and not hurt anything.

Remember, ALWAYS have the rotor pointing towards the notch in the lip of the distributor and that will be #1 cylinder

Go to these 2 sites for more information

http://www.spyderclub.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8863

http://www.spyderclub.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8402

I hear what you are saying guys, thanks for the advice.
Mark, I didn't quite explain it right! The timing will be done with the distributor at 5 o'clock! Which is under the #1 lead.
From what I can see it is out by 180 degrees, but the cap and leads are in their normal position. How important is the timing mark on the distributor? If I know it is 180 out (just the mark) and use the spark at cylinder 3 to put my timing strobe in, would this still work?
I hope this make sense! I wish I hadn't started all this now!!!!
Sorry if all this sounds dumb!

Rich,
Your car was running fine. If you are using a timing light looped to the #1 plug your timing marks on the pulley will be fine and useable.
The distributer really doesn't care where it is as long as the person who first installed it understood his mistake. The distributer position comes in to play (and will throw you as mentioned above) when you are trying to find TDC of the firing stroke
for setting valves. It could cause you to set the valves while on the cam and you could end up with xtra large clearences (did that once, kinda sounds like a sewing machine). Set your timing using your light, once that's straight and you are positive you ahve the "new" number one position on the dist.--mark it for your ref/future use. But as mentioned above---the distributer rotates once for every two crank rotations. Look at the experience you
are gaining.

Rich,

If your #1 spark plug wire is at 5:00 on the dist cap, and if the notch on the distributor body is a 5:00 (under the #1 plug wire), and the engine is running at all, then your distributor is NOT installed 180 degrees out.

Follow the instructions for valve adjustment in the links Larry gave you above.

DO NOT adjust the valves for #1 cylinder unless at TDC on the crank pulley PLUS the rotor pointing roughly at the 5:00 mark on the top edge of the distributor body shell.

DO NOT adjust your ignition timing with the timing light attached to any plug wire exept #1. ONLY #1. No other!

Get greasy and have fun!

Mark, thanks for the reply.The crank is TDC, the #1 lead is at 5 the rotor is pointing at 5ish but the distributor body mark is at 11?

The rotor MUST point at the notch in the distributor... Remove the wires with the engine at TDC #1 and starting at the #1 distributor hole, place your wires into each hole clockwise 1-4-3-2

The notch must be aligned with #1 as the distributor retards #3 just a bit

Rich -- Larry is MY tutor. So excuse me while I ask the teach . . .

Larry, can't he just loosen the distributor clamp and rotate the dist around 180 degrees to get the "body mark" back to line up with the rotor when at 5:00 and the pulley at TDC on #1 compression?

It's starting to sound to me like someone installed the dist without knowing there was such a thing as a "body mark" to reference into the #1 position. Without knowing any better, the "body mark" could be arbitrarily positioned at 8:00, 11:00, 2:00, or 5:00 when at TDC on the compression stroke. The engine would run as long as ignition is timed with the #1 plug wire in the 5:00 -- which seems to be the case.

The fact that Rich says his engine IS running with the #1 plug wire in the 5:00 position indicates to me that the distributor drive gear is not 180 degrees out of time. When the dist drive gear is installed correctly timed to the crank, the rotor should point about 5:00 when at TDC on #1 compression. And, that seems to be exactly the case, as proven by the engine running when #1 is fired at 5:00.

It seems to me everything is just the way it is supposed to be, except: The distributor body needs to be rotated so that the "body mark" lines up with #1 at 5:00.

I think!

So can I go out to recess . . . teach?

Mark, this is exactly right and my thoughts exactly. Larry, whats your thoughts?
Thanks for the perseverance guys! (I am enjoying the learning!)

A few post above I suggested that he just rotate the distributor provided he has a point eliminator. Usually, if you have points, it's difficult to just rotate the distributor 180 degree's because the condenser gets in the way. If it can be rotated with the condenser, then go for it. It's alot easier to rotate the distributor than remove the distributor drive gear.


Once the rotor is aligned with the notch in the distributor body, then re-align the spark plug wires, time the engine and drive off into happiness!!!!!

Rich, I know what your thinking right about now.
"I should have left well enough alone"

Bruce your right! Although nothing ventured nothing gained and all that! Thanks to everyone for their help but mostly patience.

Rich, anything else you want to discuss LOL

right then, done the valves this morning and holy molly what a difference to the sound, it's pure exhaust note now! I didn't realize how much it sounded like a sewing machine before. I checked the previous clearances before I did the adjustment and the smallest one was set at .028! (no wonder)
Thanks guys again, all I need to do now is the timing and the carb set up as it doesn't tick over that well now!

Rich

When you say "tick over" do you mean idle or start up?

sorry once started, the revs go below 600 rpm. I haven't had the car upto temp yet to see what the idle is like.

Rich,

When I set up customers vehicles, I time the engine at 29 degree's before top dead center at 3,000 RPM.

This ensures that at full advance, your engine doesn't exceed 28 degree's BTDC.

Once the engine timing is set, try for around 900 to 1000 idle RPM's.

You will have to re-balance the carbs once you've set the idle and when the carb's are balanced, check the timing again.

For some unknown reason the BB software doesn't display the "edit" feature.

In my first sentence, it should read 28 degree's and NOT 29

Larry,
Did the above and still can not get it to idle right. Sync'd carbs, mixture etc. I decided to look over all the bill I have for the car, (which was built by someone else) and have found that the engine is a replacement engine and is low compression engine. Having done some more research, I think I have to advance the timing even more than the 28 degree's due to the low comp - am I right?
Thanks

NO !!!!
You still run the risk of detonation.

Buy some aerosol staring fluid (ether)start your engine and spray it near the base of the intake manifolds and where the carbs bolt to the manifolds. If you have an air intake leak, your engine will rev a bit when you spray the starter fluid. If it does rev up, replace the gaskets before you do anything else.

Another thing is your jetting may be way off for that engine.

Go back and double check that you're on #1 TDC by the following method. The 4 stroke engine cycles are "intake" compression "power" and exhaust

Remove the valve cover from the right side of the engine. #1 cylinder is closest to the firewall. Have someone watch the valves as your rotate the engine "clockwise" using a large wrench on the crankpulley bolt. The exhaust valve (closest to the firewall) will open (move into and towards the engine block) then it will close and be fully closed when the crank pulley reads TDC.
As you turn the engine clockwise you begin the intake stroke and the intake valve will open and shut when the the pulley reaches BDC.

Continue rotating the engine until you reach TDC. #1 cylinder is now at top dead center. Make sure the scribed mark on the distributor and the rotor are lined up. If not, then change your wires to accomodate the firing order of 1-4-3-2. As you're looking down onto the distributor from the back of the car, the rotor turns clockwise.

With the engine OFF, Look at the crank pulley and find TDC which should be at the top of pulley. Look behind the pulley and you will see where the 2 halves of the engine case come together. That is your timing mark. Next, take a Sharpie or a small chisel and make a mark on the outer circumference of the crank pulley at the 28 degree mark. REMEMBER, you want 28 degree's advance so it's the 28 mark on the right or passenger side of the TDC mark.

You'll need to start the engine and hold the RPM's at about 3,000, Rotate the distributor until the 28 degree mark is straight up and down using the the timing mark as described above.

Don't worry about your timing at idle.

Go through these steps again and """make""" sure that both carbs are opening at the same time. THis will require adjustment from your carb linkage (hex bar, bell linkage etc)

Let me know how it turns out.