IRS Wide5 Disc Brake options

David, I have the CB units and while I do like the way they look (maybe I am just partial to fat chicks in hip huggers) they do not fit stock wheel offset (Mangel 10 slot) in a standard fender, at least the wheel well Henry is putting together at IM.

We had to have the wheels cut and rewelded with a positive offset to fit the stock fender clearance, so beware on this choice. Also I had one on the rear that was .060 out of square (.060 wobbly, banging the pucks each time around, at first I thought it was the rotor had warped, but the whole Aluminum Hub and Rotor were just out of square with the spline). Supposedly this was a one time defect and I have not heard that anyone else has had this problem, just one more thing to consider.

If its just the old school look your after have you looked at FiberSteels drum skinz?

http://fibersteel.com/DrumSkinZ.htm

http://www.socalautoparts.com/#

You might look at their Wide 5's front and rear. Stock Mangels and no offset problems with IM body and look very nice if I do say so.

If I were doing it all over, I probably would go with SoCal units as well. Scott's car looks great and I think the SoCal units are probably more trouble free.

I might add, David, that if the castings weren't to your liking then you could, for minimal cost, add the drum skins. Actually, CB Performance is offering them at half the cost of the Fibersteel sets. Exact same skins: spun aluminum for the five bolt pattern.

David; go with the So Cal ones. That's what Kirk installs in VS's and they are easy to assemble and trouble free with good German ATE calipers (I think they're VW Rabbit units). Also EMPI has just started offering them and I strongly suspect they're the same.....

Hey Bill, I had to take a chance with saying that about CB's brakes, hoping that the general populous would have a sense of humor. As to CB's brakes, have you ever measured the distance from the spring plate to the wheel bolting surface of the brake drum, 7" is the number that sticks in my mind for stock. As for Back Spacing on a Mangel wheel I've drawn a picture that puts the number at 6"+. I've also included a jpeg drawing file for you to chew on.

Wolfgang, I knew that using that term, "Old'Skul" would be my down fall. Yes, I know about the Drumskins.

Let me try this again, with honesty..., Tatum's disc set up is really the one that I want, problem is it's outset about 0.7", as for not having a E-brake provision, I don't really consider this a problem. I'm sure I can fab a carrier and hang a mechanical dirt track or old motor cycle caliper out their.

Scott, Yes I saw the socal's brakes, but there cast steel. I kind of had my heart set on forged aluminum for the look.

Anyway, have a look at my clearance issues. I felt a drawing was worth more than words as to getting things to fit. If you guys have numbers on the distances of your brakes in relationship to what I have drawn, I'd be interested..., Ok all of us would be.

David, no offense at all taken, some people's "fat chick in tight hip huggers" is another man's beautiful hub/rotor assembly.

Anything close to the wheel offset you describe in your drawing will not fit on the CB Wide 5 units in a stock fender well.

I measured my rear setup and from the outside surface of the brake rotor to the outside edge of the rim is 5" (this amount of positive offset is required for wheel/tire clearance using the CB units).

I was told the CB units are 1" wider than stock dimensions, not sure where they were measuring from and even if that dimension was for each side or overall, but I can say with a fair amount of authority, my CB units would not clear the fender well with stock wheel offsets.

1" track width
.5" perside

:)

Hey guy's, I redrew the picture of the rear end assembly and made it into four different pictures (last ones in my photos) and korrected the spilling heirs.
With respects to those of you that have the CB brakes..., is what I've drawn, a fare representation of your set up.

Still waiting on those pics of your rear brake assemblies as well.

Anyway, I'll talk at you next year, and have a safe one.

David

If the resolution is not to your liking, I posted it here as well.
http://community.webshots.com/album/526070220fpJhrZ

David, Have you found any other source for the 15X7 Wide 5 mangle wheels? The CSP company is SOOOOOO exspensive! Especially after you figure in shipping. Mike

I would call Henry at Intermec first if it's a custom offset, if it's stock you may want to give Will a call at CSP in CA. 626-445-0108. The Centerlines I ordered were around $450.00 to my door here in FL., drop shipped thru http://www.mckenzies.com/ . The prices on the CSP web site are pretty scarrrrry. Their not the prices that your going to pay here in the states.

Have a good weekend, I'll talk at you later.

Jjr just went with a guy that got recommended by one of the folks here for his wide five 15 x 8's (for his Manx II). He tells me they quoted him a reasonable price. Just look under the Wide Wide Five post.

Dave , Was that $450.00 for 2 wheels or 4? I'm looking for standard off set, the same as a stock 15 x 5 1/2 wide 5 only with an extra 1 1/2" to the back side of the wheel....That would make it a 15 x 7 wheel, so I can get more tire under the car. I can send 2 wheels out and have them widened....Thats what I may end up doing. Michael

David, I checked with Aircooled.net about the 1.5" narrorer trailing arms but they don't have the shortened axles I need. Do you have a source or a recommendation on where I can aquire them? I'd like to get complete assemblies. thanks, Michael

I bought Four centerline wheels, all four with 4.375" of back spacing. The fronts are 15"x6" and the backs are 7" wide, although the fronts are said to be 6" on the box, they measure up at 5.7" at the beed width. To the best of my memory... Prices for the fronts = $190 ea., backs $225 ea. CSP in late 2003 (delivered to my door).
If you go to CSP's site, "CSP wheel calculator section", it gives you a comparison between mangel/vw and whatever you pick from their selection of wheels and graphically shows you the offset in mm. On this site a 5,5Jx15 ET17 and 6Jx15 RS111 has outer 0,5 mm, inner 12,1 mm. Just go their and have a look around, heres a link.
http://www.customspeedparts.de/content/en/technic/felgenrechner.php

As to locating axles for your needs: http://www.swayaway.com.
Two axles made to length, $181.00, this was two years ago. Again Call them.

If you know the trick of finding out axle length, this well just bore you. For those who don't, cut 3" out of your axle, bridge the axle with a pice of angle iron a few inches longer on ea. side of your axle cut, hose clamp this on the axle, rock your suspension though its full motion range with the tire not binding and you have the length. The axle should free float an 1/8" to a 3/16" when the wheel is at mind travel C/L to C/L of trans flange and stub axle. CARRRREEEfully remove the axle and measure it, get your credit card out and make that call.

I did say, I wasn't getting back on this puter till after the new year..., O'well.

IRS Disc Brake options with a wide 5 bolt pattern.

First off, the car this well be going on is a non fender flared Porsche speedster replica with IRS. I'm not a Porsche purist, although I would like to retain the lines of body. The look I'm going for is an old school hot rod. With that said, as of now mocked up with a 1963 bus drum machined to fit a IRS axle, while retaining the stock drum face offset, and using http://www.csp-shop.de 7"x15" Centerlines w/4.375" of back spacing, along with http://www.blindchickenracing.com/ 1.5" Narrowed IRS Trailing arms, and running a 205-50-15 tire, this fits without bastardizing the fenders around the wheel well area. If you haven't noticed I'm a hater of fender flares, they imply after thought to me!

Now for my questions: Out of the Disc brake companies that are out their, is their one that I'm missing or over looked that makes a set of brakes with the following spec's? Wide 5 bolt pattern, Stock offset or at least within a 0.125", Forged aluminum hub with machine finish, Steel spline section and Emergency brake hook up?

This list of observations and opinions are sarcastic. So understand, I don't like the taste of my own foot, but I've put it in my mouth on occasion. As with opinions.., their just that.

http://www.cncbrakes.com Series 664 looked aesthetically the best, and they claimed that their 7075 all aluminum hub would withstand the rigors of daily abuse without stripping the splines. But the down side was they had to much offset from stock. (* With Aluminum Calipers, this brake and Tatums are neck and neck for the lightest set ups).
http://www.nealpedals.com 66-538D Offset to much. On the plus side, it had an emergency brake.
http://www.tatummotorsports.com Brake Kit #104 appealed for a couple of reasons. The vented hub, very light and they also claimed that their 7075 all aluminum hubs had been on their 400hp sand dragster for three seasons with no spline problems, in addition these guys made these brakes with the look in mind.., but the down side they had +0.7" offset from stock, and no Emergency brake provision. This would have been a contender. (*)
http://www.cbperformance.com CB's Rear Wide5 disc brakes. Well..., they got most of it right. Structurally, I know the cast aluminum hubs with steel splines are just fine for the street, the problem I have comes in that cast aluminum doesn't hold as nice of an aesthetic pleasing finish that forged does. I also have mixed emotions about the look of these. The convex surface, reminds me of hip-hugger jeans on a fat chick, "Muffin top syndrome". They don't have the nostalgic look I'm looking for either, but they well fit.
http://jamarperformance.com # DBB204BB Unfortunately they only have off-road stuff. Offset to much.
http://www.gear-one.com G1-2400 Unfortunately they only have off-road stuff too, and offset to much as well.
http://www.csp-shop.de # 599 168 5205S, of these brakes, CSP's would have been my choice, had it not been for that after thought in the 6 bolts in the middle of a 5 bolt hub. Talk about ruining a nice effort, they got the finish, offset and spline section right. Man' you can read between the lines on this one..., Their management got a great deal on 6 bolt discs and told the machinist to make then fit. If at all possible, I'd like what shows not to scream after thought!

If this is the complete list..., I know buying a set of brakes that's a shelf item would be far cheaper than having a set made. So would you guys/gals post some pics of the rear wheel assemblies or your rigs with hub caps off if running stock wheels, and wheels off all together if not. Seeing the drums helps make anybodies mind up that's close to spending the money and this will help to make my mind up as to buying CB's bubble drums or the after thoughts.

If you've done this conversion, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks, David

David , Thanks for your help. Michael

A price correction.
While sitting on the porcelain throne this weekend, I remember what box I stuffed the receipts for the Centerline wheels in, and sure enough, this just proves the memories going!

Oct. 2004, ordered four Centerlines wheels w/4-3/8" b.s., two 15x6 fronts = $358.00, and two 15x7 backs = $385.00.

David

Hey wsteele - Bill, on your photos site you have a picture (DSCN0645.JPG) of a rear wheel assembly that your asking a question of, that Henry at IM has done something to:
Henry is constantly improving his cars. Sometimes it's big things, other times, very subtle. Can you see it?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my eyes it appears to be a CB Wide5 disc brake unit that has the face of it turned down from it's former convex (bubble appearance) to a concave surface, that of a stock 356 brake drum.

Subtle it my be..., but I like it.

Could even be that Henry had the same feeling about the look these brakes as well, and he may be anal in doing this as an extreme, but it sells a product.

Anyway, If it is, are you willing to share the details, or should I just contact Henry?

David, I think your eyes are playing tricks on you. The hub is still convex. The picture refers to the nice tapered spacers Henry had fabricated to complete the hip hugger look.

Stock 356 brake hubs were covex?

Actually they were neither convex or concave, but pretty flat with the exception of the radius that smoothly goes up to meet the Axle Nut. They look like Drumskins, like John Leader has on his car.

Bill, I stand corrected, very very nice. Probably out 7075T6, and I'll bet it has broached splines as well knowing IM. From the angle of the camera lens I couldn't quite grasp it.
So Henry used a set of short axle Wide5 disc's on a long axle spline shaft and put a concave spacer to imitate the radiuses area at the nut surface of a 356 drum.

Looking at the photo I can know understand that the convex surface using the short spline, wide5 disc would be less pronounced, about 0.75" less.

Henry if your reading this, my hats to you buddy. Again, nice job in covering that 3"+/- dia. steel spline area with this spacer and giving it the LOOK.

Well that settles it. I know what I'll buy! Just call me ole bubble drums as well.
Thanks again everybody for all the help. David

Can anyone tell me what the distance is the on a brake assembly, between the outside of the hub where the wheel bolts to, to the inside? The brake kits from Tatum are 1.825" on the rear and 2.100" on the front. Will these fit an IRS non flaired speedster?

Can anyone tell me what the distance is the on a brake assembly, between the outside of the hub where the wheel bolts to, to the inside? The brake kits from Tatum are 1.825" on the rear and 2.100" on the front. Will these fit an IRS non flaired speedster?

Hello Otto, first off I sent you a PM telling of my issue's that I ran into, along with
the fact that I ended up using the Tatum Motor Sports brakes on all four corners.

Otto wrote: Can anyone tell me what the distance is the on a brake assembly,
between the outside of the hub where the wheel bolts to, to the inside?
The brake kits from Tatum are 1.825" on the rear and 2.100" on the front.
Will these fit an IRS non flared speedster?

Answer: The rears are the same and YES, they'll fit.
The problem is not in the spline length, but the distance from the nose of the drum to the rim / wheel bolting surface..., it's outset 0.7" from that of stock. (I'll post another pic to show this relationship).
As to the fronts, they use combo spindles and if your using a BJ front end you'll have to have a custom set made as I did.


For the rest of you..., have a look and please don't crucify me to badly..., remember this is a work in progress.

The pics are loaded on webshots: http://rides.webshots.com/album/526070220fpJhrZ
if this doesn't get you their, use: "VW Rear Section View" as a search in webshots.


What you'll see in the pics is a lot of basterifacation of parts all just to put Centerline 7"x15" 5/205 bolt pattern wheels on an IRS and under the fenders a stock body CMC Speedster.

The IRS Adjustable Inside Rear Pivots I made up for a three reasons.
- First: I needed adjustability in the rear camber without effecting the toe in.
- Second: I needed the rear narrowed a little more than what I got out of the Narrowed Trailing Arms.
- Third: A negative rear cambered IRS car just has a go-cart feel all that much more.

As to the NTA's I had to narrow these an additional 0.75" to get the clearance under the fenders.

I also posted new drawings to satisfy you question filled people as to how much I cut and pasted to get this to fit..., and "YES" this did seem akin to putting a SQUARE peg in a round hole.

Theirs also a drawing of the front spindles and modifying that I'm still doing to bring this all together.

As to the front end, I'm using 6"x15" C/L's w/4.375" of backspacing. Here's a big dilemma that I ran into. The front Tatum hubs use Combo Spindles "FORD F-150" spindles..., not really but in the pics you'll see. As to just opening a magazine and ordering them, this just wasn't the case.
I contacted the same fellow that made my NTA's at blindchickenracing.com "Mark Johnson", and he made me a set of Ball Joint Backed Combo Spindles, also 2.5" lower. His work was fine, it's just that I failed to give him all of the info that would have been helpful in the additional fabrication work. See pics of what I cut off..., this is for the addition of the vented front rotors that I'll well have made by colemanracing.com.

Take care, David / dd-ardvark