Is it possible to use a Boxster engine?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-Boxster-engine-clean-motor-2-5-liter-986-97-99_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ018QQitemZ280067452848QQrdZ1

Just the first example I came across. I'm a whole lot of money into my engine, and I wondered what P-car engines I could buy for salvage. These guys have been out log enough now -- and they're fairly reliable -- that maybe a few thousand bucks into one of these would be an acceptable mid-mounted replacement?
Thoughts/experiences?

I think its very possible. Its a reliable, point and shoot type engine so less maintenance, more drive time. I also know that Jake Raby is looking at these type engines too....


Michael

Just looking at that pic, it doesn't look much different than my 2.5l Subie engine sizewise and basic looks for that matter.

BD

I second those comments...I think it would be a very nice fit in a Speedster...why not??

Michael, my dare-to-be-different bro -- How the heck are you?
Where have you been, lo these past few weeks?

Cory,
The Boxster engine is watercooled. For the aggravation of putting in a water cooled engine and the cost of a boxster engine for the power you are getting you would be WAY WAY ahead with a turbo subaru.

If you do go Boxster foregoe the 2.7 (watch rear main seal leaks) and go with the more expensive 3.2 Boxster S. Just as much of a PITA for more power. Of course by the time you solve those problems, you may as well just go with a 996 engine... You know, a 996 turbo- oh BABY! You know, these are HEAVY right? I mean we're talking some 450 to near 500 pounds belive it or not. Very close to late model small block chevy weight...

Again, if you go with water, I would strongly suggest a turbo subie. 275 to 300 hp STREETABLE. Pure badassness. Smaller size, less weight than the water cooled p-car engines.

angela

I wonder, how hard it would be to just GRAFT a 356 body onto a Boxter. Theres a guy here in West Palm Beach who makes Diablo replicas from them...
DT

Cory, you need this! Look on "thesamba". Here's the link--

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=406921

twin turbo subby already mounted to a "new" VW swingaxle. Your name is on this one.

Wonder how "far off" the Kennedy adapter moves the trans / motor?

Trans is in the same spot. Engine is moved back 1/2".

Thats makes absolute sense.... duh :)

I'm not real up on Subies, Cory, but my little internet research shows for US spec some 250 hp out of a Legacy GT engine... Probably more from a Japanese engine.

Boxsters are (200 for old ones) 220ish for newer to 258 or so for the Boxster S. The subie will give more power for less $$$ on any upgrade. A real good guy to talk to about turbo subies is Larry Jowdy on the spyderclub site. Also, there's a fellow in Australia with a turbo subie spyder who races, drag races and hillclimbs his car. Jowdy builds 300hp turbo subie sand-rails - qutie an expert in this area as well as a spyder enthusiast. Darn good guy all around.

Dollars to power ratio - a turbo subie is pretty tough to beat mi compadre. angela

Larry does the rounds around this forum once in a while; he knows his VW stuff too.

Turbo Engines have the problem of turbo lag and heat - the guys at SAW don't like them as much as a naturally aspirated engine.
I too am interested in using a Boxster engine and transaxle. Seems like it may be too long or tall. Anyone know where to get dimensions of one?

Of course, I was thinking of orienting in in mid config rather than rear.

Cory, my SOC brutha!

Boxster, turbo or non-turbo Subie - FUGGETABOUTIT! Those are for people who want to stay below the speed of sound!

Here's the engine you NEED to put in Hoopty - send me the money order, I'll pick the engine up at will-call and personaly deliver it to your door!

You should have just enough money left over to buy a G-suit and heat shields!

Jimbo, I might like to go with a more proven engine if I decide to truly orbit the Earth:
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/blog_support/200412/Saturn_V_launches.jpg

Ground Control to Major Drake!

For you guys thinking 'bout a Boxster drivetrain - couple of things. First the transaxle is huge. 2nd, the ring and pinion doesn't flip on a G50. If you want it rear engined, you need to start out with a transaxle that faces that way (or that has a reversible ring and pinion), 901, 915, or rear engined G50. The G50 transmission is big/heavy and will probably offer significant clearance issues in a speedster. In fact, a 915 is a challenging fit in a speedster (someone has done this - I forget who). The G50 will be REAL challenging (can you say sawzall?). The boxster G50 uses a cable shifter, the G50 in the 993 uses a rod. G50's beginning with 996 use a cable shifter. ***if you're serious about this make sure you double check my facts - not real up on this late model porsche stuff***

The twin-turbo engine shown above on Samba would be pretty serious smackdown in a speedster. It is twin-turbo which allows little tiny turbos to spool up very fast - that eliminates almost all the turbo lag. Modern turbo engines feel like "cammed" engines of yesteryear that had to build a little rpm before they hit their power bands. Twin-turbo engines just engage the "start pushing hard" feeling at about 1800rpm and by 2500rpm are in full "kicksomev8ass" gear all the way to redline.

My suggestion - drive a buddies' subaru WRX STI. You will be SHOCKED and all you will think about after that is how you can get all that (WRX STI engine) into there (da hoopty).

As you know Cory, I'm a beloved porsche fan. But for the aggravation, I wouldn't bother. Maybe for a 996 or 997 engine (whose wussiest version is 300 hp and like 450 soemthing for TT...)

Just angela's 2 centavos.
angela

Michael said: "Turbo Engines have the problem of turbo lag and heat - the guys at SAW don't like them as much as a naturally aspirated engine."

Just so I'm up to date, which "guys at SAW" are you referring to?

I'm with you, Hoss......Chris doesn't have ANY trouble with lag or heat his 580hp Eclipse.....especially when he's running 11.2 in the quarter and taking Vipers and Vette's by a few lengths...

Don't see where lag or heat would be an issue with the later Turbos on a Subaru, either. Just ask a WRX driver...

Cory...
to be honest I have been hanging out with the 914 crowd and working alot...
They have a real following for the subaru engine in the 914. In fact, its a bigger interest than the V8 conversion. Me...well lets say I am dreaming of a V8 conversion in a 914/....


Michael

Do it right the first time Cory ..either will suffice!

http://cgi.ebay.com/WORLDS-ONLY-JET-CAR-with-twin-jet-engines_W0QQitemZ160069702913QQihZ006QQcategoryZ98062QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AIRESEARCH-Jet-Engine-125-HP-APU-Gas-Turbine_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26437QQihZ011QQitemZ320070409418QQrdZ1

Or get an engine like "Butch" has. Paul's speedster has been described on this forum as "scary fast", and real Porsche parts cost twice as much as real VW parts. Then there's all that weight hanging out back...
ed

Ed, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Hoopty is already 'scary fast,' too. I'm looking to the future because I'm about 2,000 miles into my $10k engine and I managed to f it up already. I'd like to have the next one lined up and ready in my basement.
I had taken possession of a zero-miles '69E Porsche 2.0 six, as you probably remember, but decided against it a month or so back for a handful of reasons. The guy who gave it to me did so because he's elderly and didn't see himself doing anything with it -- but he's also not well, and the sale of that engine for a sizeable profit, along with 60 years of Porsche and VW service manuals and a whole passel of transaxles to a racer/wrench near Summit Point -- will help him meet some oncologist's bills.
Easy come, easy go. It was the right thing to do.
Now, I'm on the lookout again. I'm just not feeling the Subaru; I'll probably have to take Angela's advice and go drive one.

Jeepers, Alan! Do that to the go-kart first, and then we'll talk.

Theres the blue Spyder (Aussie owned) that stops by here from time to time. 280hp turbo subby powered=goes well. Not picking an argument
with anyone but when turbo lag, heat build up is mentioned these are
no longer issues. An example would be the early 930turbo vs todays
turbo Porshe. Both have turbo's, the feel, power band, drivability etc...Totally different animal. A v8 in a 914 adds excessive weight in relation to the power gains. Having owned/driven a 280z with a cheby 350 I can tell you that the extra weight ruined the sports car feel.
You can't get the same hp ($ for $)out of a normally aspirated engine.---Turbo's are your friend!!

My comments with respect to SAW preferring naturally aspirated engines were based on conversations I had with Steve. He felt that low end torque was an issue with the turbo. He also said that above 3000 rpm it was a hoot. His comments may also be due to his worry that too much hp in a short wheelbase car is a problem. (A belief that I don't share).

I also have a preference for naturally aspirated engines and mid engine configurations.

I have driven several STI's and have great respect for them. I often go to DE events and have often been stomped on by a fire-breathing STI.

I was talking about using a Boxster engine and Boxster tranny in a mid configuration. I'd like to stay with Porsche as much as possible - much like I did with the IM speedster 6 that I had. I owned the IM speedster that appeared in Excellence a couple of years ago. Absolutely a great car other than fussing with the Webers.

After selling the speedster, I had a 98 Boxster with a 3.4L from a 996. I grew to love the mid engine setup. Now I have an 05 with an X51 engine and 385 hp.

Don't get me wrong - I am anxiously watching the high hp SAW cars with Subie power. I will probably go down to SAW and hope to drive one.

If I can figure out how to do a Boxster eng and tranny with Porsche suspension, I am going to do it. Steve is not interested.

If not, I am giving serious consideration to 2.5 Turbo or H6 (if I can convince Steve to do one).

Thank you, Michael for clearing up my confusion: By the "guys at SAW" you meant Steve. I agree with you that the WRX engine in its 2.0L configuration may not have as much low end grunt as the 2.2L or 2.5L varieties. For normal, everyday driving needs, I think that the normally aspirated engines, for my purposes anyway, are just fine. But it is certainly true, and I know from personal experience, that when the 2.0 turbo kicks in, hang on!

Now if you were to order the 2.5L Sti engine, this may be a whole new ball game, perhaps the best of both worlds. It will be interesting to see how this car turns out and I'm sure that the anxious customer will have plenty to say after his first drive. Stay tuned.
Hoss

Boxster with 996 engine..mmmmm....fun....

Cory - we've chased around several drivetrain ideas for a 904. My heart is rather set on a normally aspirated 993 vario-ram engine to a Boxster mid-engined transaxle complete with all factory motronic. I've been reading up on the motronic - trying to get a handle on how they work and improvements that are possible. It would be 3.6 twin-plug from the factory. These are expensive.

Also REAL expensive and challenging to wire is the 993 Twin-Turbo motor. But yee-owwzers talk about alot of power....

Steve is drifting toward the 996 water cooled engine. They make great power and drive-ability. Gotta place cooling obviously. WE would have a great heater. Heaters are our friends (it's 19 degrees right now). An elegant, all german porsche drive-train with a heater. Hmmm...not a bad idea.

Maybe we'll just buy a 993 engine, yank all the crud off the top and go with a mega-squirt injection system. It looks like the old Hillborn fuel injection systems, except it is fully electronic, adjustable, metered and works elegantly while maintaining a decidedly vintage appearance. Some exhaust re-working and a couple of cams we would be looking at well over 300 obnoxious Loud German Horsepower AIRCOOLED horsepower with stock pistons!
Its good that we haven't ordered the 904 yet. As you can see, we're a ways from deciding exactly how stupidly fast we want to build...

angela

Anglea, my out-of-the-box sister, have you thought of maybe hiding radiators in the doors themselves? Duct air in from below, graft the doors permanently colsed and then grind on the seams and inset some black paint or something? That's completely wasted space on my car.
I have enough room in there to take up bootlegging.
Hell, you could step over yours, and still get in and out effectively. In the 904, the doors could be outer shells only, closing down over a sill like the Spyder has, with the radiators concealed within those!

Any thoughts about the 6 cylinder Subi engine from a Tribeca SUV?

I have many. It takes up more space on height and the sides. Would it fit? I think so, the automatic drivetrain is only .70" longer then the H4 2.5. I also think it is a much nicer looking engine because of the intake. It is definitely smoother (smaller pistons, and more of them to get 3.0L) relative to the H4.

If you want to stay normally aspirated it would be the coolest. You end up adding 25% more drivetrain weight for 30+% more hp as compared to a normally aspirated 2.5. Now compare it to the 2.0 turbo and you have a 25% increase in weight with only a 20% increase in hp. It just shows that it is very hard to be a turbo for weight versus power gain. But the low torque/hp curve is different and better for the fun factor in my opinion.

The bad news is they haven't been out very long and finding a totaled tribeca for the donor drivetrain is going to be very very difficult and more money. The older 3.3 is out, because of too much extra weight and other considerations.

Cory,
Couple of ideas for radiators on our wish-to-build 904. First is mounted it near flat up front and duct air for cooling. 2nd is mount it in front of the engine (blech). Third is a mounted short, wide multi-row radiator in front of or directly below the steering rack. The 911's have an AC condensor mounted in a similar fashion. Or we could use the side-pods below the doors, maybe even split the cooling into two seperate small radiators. That would be very very clever and would preserve the trunk space - important for us as we will drive the wheels off this thing.

We've got a set of blue-prints and have run through quite a few scenarios with the water cooled engine. It is definately doable and with some work would be an elegant setup. We're quite a way from building that due to other projects. Noting would be finalized until we actually had the car in our hot little hands. A little off here, a little off there from the "intended measurements" and the meticulous idea falls down the tube in real life. We'll finish a few other things first, and then buy the 904 and build away.
angela

Steve, who are you thinking of buying the car from? Thunderranch or is there another builder?

I saw that Angela and Ricardo mention my name in conjunction with Subaru Engines.

A little history. Back in 1996, a friend obtained several Subaru engines from Subaru's Research and Development center that used to be in Garden Grove CA. Subara wanted to get into the off road market and told him to offer the engines to people free of charge provided they would install them in off road vehicles.

The free engine ended up costing me around $3,500 after we added an Electromotice fuel injeciton computer, 50 lbs injector, a turbo, intercooler, ported and polished the heads and re-ground the cams for more overlap. I assembled the engine in my friends shop and then took it home for installation in my previous dunebuggy. Sand Sports magazine (division of HotVW's) did a 4 page spread on my installing alternative power in a sand rail as most people had VW's back then) That engine eventually produced 345HP with approx 300 lbs of torque and was an absolute pleasure to drive in the sand dunes. Those ratings were obtained with only 8 lbs of boost and 91 octane pump gas. If I wanted to use 110 leaded, and bump up the boost, the engine is capable of roughly 475 to 500 HP.

No more carb flutter due to fuel spilling, no more dirty idle jets, everything worked absolute great and the power band was very broad.

When I built a long travel car in 2000. I installed that 2.2 engine in the new car. In 2004, I purchased a 2.5 long block with JE pistons and super rods and swapped heads and injection to the new block The added stroke from the 2.5 added a bunch of low end torque and made the car even more enjoyable to drive. (My engine is the single over head cam (one cam per cylinder head but with the port work, it flows more than the double over head cam model)

Last year, I replaced the Electromotive computer with a Redline (The same guy that I got the engine from also designed this computer)
The new computer made the engine run even better.

Ironically, when Subaru decided to build their current flat engine, they turned to Porsche to design that engine. Their engines are unique and VERY strong, both in HP and durability.

See Larry, even when you're not around, we're nice to you! You know, the comment regarding development of the current p-car engine... ya know, I always swore up and down they look the the H6 subie engine...
angela

Larry, did you see my post on the cold air intake I made for my suby. It worked out really good and made more difference then I had even hoped. I really appreciate your advice!!!!

Steve, please point me to your cold air intake thread, thanks

Angela, thanks for the comments.

ps, you're always nice to me!!!!

https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=10612

Larry, here is the thread. The intake is now fully protected from heat and the air it is getting is unheated fresh air from between the passenger door jam and fender well liner.