I am noticing my car is hesitating between 2500rpm to 3000rpm if I am in second gear going steady. I cleaned the idle jet, no change. Set up the carbs (Weber 40 IDF), no change. changed the main jet, helped a tiny bit. I am currently running a 009 distributor with a Pertronix. ignition system. Is my ignition starting to fail? Would a CB Performance magna spark II fix this?
Replies sorted oldest to newest
The answer is maybe. There are so many things it "could" be.
Guessing from the vast internet is futile.
Could be:
Valve adjustment(ICE cold after an overnight to get ICE cold)
The entire ignition system(Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and timing). It could even be low voltage if the charging system isn't working properly.
Could also be anything in the fuel system:
Fuel itself(bad tank), moisture in the fuel, fuel filter clogged, fuel pressure, float height, carb synch, clogged jets, and LASTLY, jetting.
As a rule, the electronic ignitions either work, or don't. When they fail, they fail completely.
But I would certainly check the screw that holds the Pertronix to the breaker plate in the distributor. Clean the plate, clean the underside, re-attach but use a star washer on the screw. That has found to have been a easily-fixed and somewhat common problem.
Totally agree with the above, especially the last paragraph.
Clean-up of the pertronix contact/mounting points, along with cleaning up the wire terminal tabs can do wonders for you, and it’s an easy fix.
Also, clean up the wire terminations on the coil and make sure they are all tight.
Thank you. I will check everything that was mentioned.
I had a similar hesitation issue on my Speedster with a Magnaspark Electronic Distributer and Pertronix Coil. I traced all of the spark plug wires from plug to distributer to make sure they were tight to the plugs and the distributer. This was a check based on the "feel" of things. If further check was needed condition of the wires would/could also be done. Then I checked all of the power wires to/from the coil and I found that one of the wires on the coil was loose. I pulled the wire and crimped the spade a little to improve the connection to the coil. That did the trick and the hesitation during "spirited" acceleration was eliminated.
@DannyP posted:The answer is maybe. There are so many things it "could" be.
Guessing from the vast internet is futile.
Could be:
Valve adjustment(ICE cold after an overnight to get ICE cold)
The entire ignition system(Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and timing). It could even be low voltage if the charging system isn't working properly.
Could also be anything in the fuel system:
Fuel itself(bad tank), moisture in the fuel, fuel filter clogged, fuel pressure, float height, carb synch, clogged jets, and LASTLY, jetting.
As a rule, the electronic ignitions either work, or don't. When they fail, they fail completely.
But I would certainly check the screw that holds the Pertronix to the breaker plate in the distributor. Clean the plate, clean the underside, re-attach but use a star washer on the screw. That has found to have been a easily-fixed and somewhat common problem.
So I did some checking these past few days.
I set the valve adjustment, no change. I changed the spark plugs, no change. I inspected cap and rotor, they appear to be in good condition. I did a ohm reading on the spark plug wires and they are in spec. I swapped out distributors with another 009, no change. Timing set at 30 degrees at 3000rpm. Fuel in the fuel filter looks clean and I have fresh fuel. Carb sync is near 5 on all cylinders. Cleaned idle jets and main jets with compressed air. I cleaned the breaker plate and checked the screw and everything was tight. I also checked all the connections on the coil and they were clean and tight. I'm stumped.
Check the compression?
Thats all I got.
Do you have a spare coil you could try?
and I know it fails in second gear, how about 2500 - 3000rpm in Third?
I have a spare coil. The coil I have is about a year old. I will try swapping coils. Yes it does it in 3rd gear just not as noticeable.
@dlearl476 posted:Check the compression?
Thats all I got.
I’m going to check it tomorrow.
@JB356SR There are other possibilities. I'm glad you checked off the basics.
Did you check your fuel pressure(mechanical or electric pump?) No more than 3.5 psi for Webers. Did you take the carb tops off and check the float level? 11mm with no float top gasket or 10mm with gasket.
Some cars do require MORE than 30 degrees total timing. Some are up around 36-37 degrees, the lower the compression the more timing they like. I had a 1776 that wanted 36 degrees or it would hesitate and spit and sputter in transition(2000-3000rpm).
If all that fails, the last thing to do is get a wideband O2 sensor(even temporarily) to see what the AFR(air-fuel ratio) is during transition.
With Webers, as a rule, you set the idle jet size first. Then you set the mains. Then emulsion tubes(I find F7 for 40 IDF and under 2 liter, F11 for 44IDF and over 2 liter).
The last thing to play with is the air corrector jets, which sit inside of the top of the emulsion tubes. The air correctors can lean or richen the transition between idle jets and mains. The exact area you're having trouble with. Larger air jets make it lean, small air jets allow more fuel and richen the transition. Float height also affects this, higher float height richens things generally, lower float height can lean things just enough to make an engine happy.
The thing with carbs is ONE thing at a time. Change it, drive it. Try again. It can be painful or therapeutic, and frustrating or nirvana, all at the same time.
I had similar issue, found the coil was going bad. Had another issue with fiends car and turned out the secondary fuel filter in the engine bay had been put on backwards.
Did some more testing today. I swapped the coil, no change. I swapped the cap and spark plug wires, no change. so I checked fuel pressure. My fuel pressure tester is a cheap one so I am reluctant in trusting its accuracy. So I'm thinking of installing a fuel pressure regulator. Can anyone suggest a good quality one? Amazon is my easiest and fastest way of getting one.
@JB356SR posted:Did some more testing today. I swapped the coil, no change. I swapped the cap and spark plug wires, no change. so I checked fuel pressure. My fuel pressure tester is a cheap one so I am reluctant in trusting its accuracy. So I'm thinking of installing a fuel pressure regulator. Can anyone suggest a good quality one? Amazon is my easiest and fastest way of getting one.
Filter King. It’s the only way to go. Looks the part and is bulletproof, too. Bonus, it give you a second fuel filter in your engine bay.
I had similar issue, found the coil was going bad. Had another issue with fiends car and turned out the secondary fuel filter in the engine bay had been put on backwards.
When I cooked my coil, my car would run like a scalded cat WOT and idle just fine. Anything in between and it would buck like a rodeo bronc.
As I’d just re-jetted and changed my Vents, I assumed it was my carbs.* I checked my coil with a cheapo digital multi meter and it read fine. It was only when I applied my OG Simpson 260 to it that I realized that the secondary circuit was horrible out of spec.
* A wise man once said, “90% of carb problems are ignition.”
I’m still thinking it’s an electrical issue, even thouh it sounds like fuel starvation during jet transition.
Have you cleaned up the contacts on the ignition circuit fuse? I would also suspect the ignition switch (key switch) wire terminations, especially if they are screw-terminals, and/or any relay in the ignition circuit.
Did some more testing today. I installed my fuel pressure regulator. My test gauge was reading 4.25 lbs so now I have it at 3.5 lbs, No change. I changed the air jet to a 185, same symptoms just a little soggy at those rpms. Been getting backfires on heavy deceleration too. Don't have any exhaust leaks.
You are chasing shadows...buy or borrow it will give you a quick idea of what is going on...and it will indicate ignition problems
@JB356SR If you know someone who knows (or cares enough) about old distributors to have an old school Sun distributor tester, they can give you a thumbs up or down in about 5 minutes.
If you don’t, both Ed At Vintage Werks or Glenn Ring do and can.
ED:
http://www.vintagewerks.com/Di...ors/dist_4_sale.html
Glenn:
https://www.glenn-ring.com/bosch/
Both can repair virtually any old distributor. But be prepared for humiliating mockery if you have a Chinese 009. DAMHIK
I vindicated myself with Ed by buying a German one from him and having him rebuild it. FWIW, you’ll come away with a graph of the exact advance vs RPM of YOUR distributor when Ed is finished with it.
@dlearl476 posted:@JB356SR If you know someone who knows (or cares enough) about old distributors to have an old school Sun distributor tester, they can give you a thumbs up or down in about 5 minutes.
If you don’t, both Ed At Vintage Werks or Glenn Ring do and can.
ED:
http://www.vintagewerks.com/Di...ors/dist_4_sale.html
Glenn:
https://www.glenn-ring.com/bosch/
Both can repair virtually any old distributor. But be prepared for humiliating mockery if you have a Chinese 009. DAMHIK
I vindicated myself with Ed by buying a German one from him and having him rebuild it. FWIW, you’ll come away with a graph of the exact advance vs RPM of YOUR distributor when Ed is finished with it.
Thanks for the suggestion. I talked to a friend today and he suggested to swap distributors. I swapped distributors the other day to rule out the mechanical advance and it was working. Today I put the other distributor in with points to test and make sure the Pertronix was working. The 009 with points still gave the same symptom.
So I looked into what DannyP mentioned." I find F7 for 40 IDF and under 2 liter" I started to read up on Weber transition stage of the carburetor. I want to start off by saying I am no carburetor expert, through my research I'm thinking I might have a lean hole on the transition stage. I'm going to order a set F7 emulsion tubes and a set of 210 airs and give it a try.
There's no point in candy-coating it - distributors are terrible. They are.
Everybody drones on about mapping the advance curve of various Bosch distributors on a Sun machine, etc., and talks about the established gurus of various distributors - but in truth, even the best of them are rude little contraptions. Advance curves are set with flying weights and springs, and any advance you get is just a vague approximation of what you probably need.
Factor in the undeniable fact that the curves will never be the same any two times you rev the engine up (a timing light proves this), and I find it amazing that they work at all - that there aren't holes everywhere in the powerband.
I've said it elsewhere. I'm 100% done with them after this trip.
@Stan Galat posted:There's no point in candy-coating it - distributors are terrible. They are.
Everybody drones on about mapping the advance curve of various Bosch distributors on a Sun machine, etc., and talks about the established gurus of various distributors - but in truth, even the best of them are rude little contraptions. Advance curves are set with flying weights and springs, and any advance you get is just a vague approximation of what you probably need.
Factor in the undeniable fact that the curves will never be the same any two times you rev the engine up (a timing light proves this), and I find it amazing that they work at all - that there aren't holes everywhere in the powerband.
I've said it elsewhere. I'm 100% done with them after this trip.
What are you going to replace it with?
Megajolt on the 2110, Megasquirt on the new engine.
@Stan Galat posted:Megajolt on the 2110, Megasquirt on the new engine.
.
@JB356SR posted:....Would a CB Performance magna spark II fix this?
It might. Here's a way to tell.
The regulars are getting tired of hearing my spiel about this, but this could help you.
The biggest problem with all of the 009 knockoffs is that they are made to look like the Bosch originals on the outside. Inside, they're no better than Chinese engineering needs to make them. And, since there's no longer any made-in-Germany competition around at comparable prices, that means they are all basically junk inside.
It's not the electronic module that's necessarily junk (sometimes, it is, too), it's all the mechanical stuff below that (underneath the metal plate, where you can't see it). In the originals this was made with enough precision to ensure that, at any given rpm, the advance was the same from one revolution to the next. But these knockoffs are just too cheap for all of that delicate, mechanical timing gear to be properly machined or installed. It wobbles, it wiggles, and it creates inconsistent spark. The best-tuned carburetors on earth will miss and sputter without consistent spark. If you read any of the classic articles about tuning these carbs, they ALL insist that you check for 'good' spark before messing with the carbs and this is what they're talking about. There are good advance curves and not-so-good, but before you start messing with advance curves at all, the spark must be consistent.
So, how do you check that?
The easiest way is with a simple timing light. Hook it up and watch the timing mark at idle. It should sit at one place and not move around. Then, SLOWLY advance the throttle watching how the timing mark moves.
It should slowly and solidly move across the degree scale, again, without jumping around. Every time it 'jumps' (or even disappears), the spark is inconsistent from one engine revolution to the next. If you see that, stop right there.
It's not the electronic module, it's not the advance curve, it's not the jetting, it's not the venturi. Toss the distributor as far as you can. Nothing will fix it.
I had a subtle 'miss' at a few spots between idle and about 2500 rpm that no amount of carb fiddling would fix. When I finally did this timing light test, bingo! The timing mark was completely disappearing between those two speeds and didn't settle down again until almost 3000, at which point 'the carbs' miraculously cleaned up.
A lot of us have been down this rabbit hole and found the Magnaspark solved the problem for not much money. It ain't perfect. It's also made in China, but apparently to high enough mechanical standards that this problem at least goes away and you can move on to dialing in the carbs (you may find you don't need to touch them, after all).
Someone of Stan's mechanical sophistication may turn his nose up at the limitations in setting a good advance curve on any distributor. But for most of us, a decent distributor will give you a smooth-running engine, if not one that makes maximum power and torque at every engine speed.
But find a timing light (and someone who knows how to use one if you don't) and you can quickly find out what your next step should be.
.
They call it TunerStudio 'cause we're all artists, like Stan.
Dr. Piperato would advise crank-fire. Very cool beans there, but a step or two beyond plug and play. I finally obtained a Magnaspark from CB (they allegedly tune these things up in their shop to be sure they run as they are supposed to). I had to wait a long while because: supply chain. I eventually got one. But here's the real thing -- Rule 0 for the shade tree mechanic, which I would count myself as one of: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My engine -- hears knocks on wood -- has been running pretty good for a good while lately and I'm not anxious to set off a couple of new issues by monkeying with my dizzy. It seems to be at least OK. So the Maganspark is sitting in abeyance. maybe this winter . . .
@El Frazoo posted:Rule 0 for the shade tree mechanic, which I would count myself as one of: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My engine -- hears knocks on wood -- has been running pretty good for a good while lately and I'm not anxious to set off a couple of new issues by monkeying with my dizzy. It seems to be at least OK.
That’s where I’m at. I haven’t even installed the German 009 yet because the Chinese one Ed went through has been performing flawlessly. Like Mitch posted, it’s steady at every rpm and sweeps cleanly from idle to max advance, just like it did in the graphs that Ed printed out when I picked them both up.
It’s been a while and for the life of me I can’t remember how he generated these graphs. His Sun machines obviously aren’t digital. I remember he printed them out in his basement when he printed the receipts, but I have no clue how he got the data from his shop to his basement.
I’ll dig out the paperwork and see if it spurs my memory.
@Sacto Mitch posted:.It's not the electronic module that's necessarily junk (sometimes, it is, too), it's all the mechanical stuff below that (underneath the metal plate, where you can't see it). In the originals this was made with enough precision to ensure that, at any given rpm, the advance was the same from one revolution to the next. But these knockoffs are just too cheap for all of that delicate, mechanical timing gear to be properly machined or installed. It wobbles, it wiggles, and it creates inconsistent spark. The best-tuned carburetors on earth will miss and sputter without consistent spark. If you read any of the classic articles about tuning these carbs, they ALL insist that you check for 'good' spark before messing with the carbs and this is what they're talking about. There are good advance curves and not-so-good, but before you start messing with advance curves at all, the spark must be consistent.
So, how do you check that?
The easiest way is with a simple timing light. Hook it up and watch the timing mark at idle. It should sit at one place and not move around. Then, SLOWLY advance the throttle watching how the timing mark moves.
It should slowly and solidly move across the degree scale, again, without jumping around. Every time it 'jumps' (or even disappears), the spark is inconsistent from one engine revolution to the next. If you see that, stop right there.
It's not the electronic module, it's not the advance curve, it's not the jetting, it's not the venturi. Toss the distributor as far as you can. Nothing will fix it.
I had a subtle 'miss' at a few spots between idle and about 2500 rpm that no amount of carb fiddling would fix. When I finally did this timing light test, bingo! The timing mark was completely disappearing between those two speeds and didn't settle down again until almost 3000, at which point 'the carbs' miraculously cleaned up.
A lot of us have been down this rabbit hole and found the Magnaspark solved the problem for not much money. It ain't perfect. It's also made in China, but apparently to high enough mechanical standards that this problem at least goes away and you can move on to dialing in the carbs (you may find you don't need to touch them, after all).
Someone of Stan's mechanical sophistication may turn his nose up at the limitations in setting a good advance curve on any distributor. But for most of us, a decent distributor will give you a smooth-running engine, if not one that makes maximum power and torque at every engine speed.
But find a timing light (and someone who knows how to use one if you don't) and you can quickly find out what your next step should be.
.
Wisdom!
@Stan Galat posted:There's no point in candy-coating it - distributors are terrible. They are.
Everybody drones on about mapping the advance curve of various Bosch distributors on a Sun machine, etc., and talks about the established gurus of various distributors - but in truth, even the best of them are rude little contraptions. Advance curves are set with flying weights and springs, and any advance you get is just a vague approximation of what you probably need.
Factor in the undeniable fact that the curves will never be the same any two times you rev the engine up (a timing light proves this), and I find it amazing that they work at all - that there aren't holes everywhere in the powerband.
I've said it elsewhere. I'm 100% done with them after this trip.
Geez Stan. Why don’t you stop tilting at windmills and buy a new Miata? Sounds like you’d be a lot happier.
FWIW, I sold my 911 and will my 968 and I’m keeping my Spyder exactly because it’s flawed, ancient technology, and I get a ton of satisfaction out of knowing how it works, making it work, and enjoying it working. If it wasn’t for those joys, it wouldn’t be worth the, quite literal, pain the the back getting in and out of it, sweating my butt off on a hot summer day or freezing my tootsies off on a cool fall morning.
My Smart cabrio is every bit as fun to drive and is full of creature comforts. Nonetheless, it’s not “mine” like my Spyder is.
@dlearl476 posted:I get a ton of satisfaction out of knowing how it works, making it work, and enjoying it working.
There's a lot to answer here, but I'll start with this: my distaste for distributors has nothing to do with "not knowing how it works, not being able to make it work, or not enjoying it working". I've made a life and a living making things work, and I've been doing this thing with old technology since I was in high-school, back in the Hoover administration.
I converted an 009 to twin-spark by adapting a Datsun distributor cap and rotor. I know which end of the screwdriver to hold.
There's nothing more satisfying than making a silk purse out of a sow's ear - and sure, given some acumen and persistence, a tenacious and patient man can (for one, brief, shining moment) bring the car into a serviceably good tune. This assumes (of course) that you have sourced a nice, german distributor that was frozen in amber somewhere for 60 years, and that everything is free of futz and wear - or that you have a "good" Marga-Spark, rather than one from the batch built when Mr. Chen had chills from the 'rona. If it's anything else, all bets are off. I've presently got something else. Pity, that.
With such an ignition, there will still be a certain amount of spark scatter, and advance overrun, and everything will still be reliant on a chessy hall-effect pickup with a comically tiny pickup wheel (injection molded to the highest standard in mud hut in East Asia), but you'll think - "this runs pretty well for a piece of outdoor power equipment", and you'll be happy!
... and all will be well and good, assuming your expectation of the car is that it will transport you down to Cars & Coffee once a month, or cruise up to the DQ for a $54 Blizzard, or however most people use their cars.
Eventually though (and likely sooner, rather than later), the precarious balance of tradeoffs and compromise will "slip"... just a little... ever so slightly... and all of the sudden, your Apollo capsule is headed out into deep space. A pin will wear, a rub-plate will become sticky, or it may just be that a screw that was tight has now rattled very slightly loose. But one way or another - it'll miss, or sputter, or be down on power.
It's not a matter of "if", but of "when".
This is fine, assuming you never escape the orbit of your garage full of tools. I can guarantee I'm a bigger retro-grouch than almost anybody here. I love the old-school vibe a distributor throws off. But if you are (for the sake of example) 500 mi. into a 2500 mi. trip in your car, and your ignition needs it's weekly massage in a hotel parking lot, in the rain, with the tools you brought with you - it's less romantic and satisfying than you would think.
And that's the difference, I suppose.
I not only know how it works, I know how it feels when it IS working, and I want to use the car in such a manner that it's more than garage art or a trailer queen. I'm in KY right now, headed for the mountains in NC, then on to Washington DC and then home - with no support vehicle, and only the tools that will fit in my frunk. I spent the evening attending to this-n-that in the parking lot last night.
The experience is plenty raw. I'm pretty much over contending with the distributor.
Congrats on getting the MagnaSpark II. I was an early adopter of MagnaSpark devotees as I had been running an original MagnaSpark (based on a 009 clone) since day one with absolutely zero problems. I went to the MS II in an effort to overcome a mid-range engine bog that turned out to be that 10% problem that was really caused by my carburetors - Who knew? 🤔
The $250 MagnaSpark is a middle price point between a $150 009 knock-off a $400 123ignition system or a $500 crank-fire system.
After reading an excellent technical post from our own Brad Pitt doppelgänger, Mitch Toll, on the virtues of the MS II, I saved my pennies and finally got one. I also took Mitch's advice and twiddled with the advance springs even before I installed the disti so I have a bit more advance coming on earlier.
Mine's running great. I love it. You will too, whenever you get around to installing it. Slap a timing light on it and slowly advance the throttle and the spark signature is stable as a rock. OK, maybe not as stable as a crank-fire system, but pretty damn stable. Maybe not enough for engineers, but certainly enough for technicians and we all know that they really run those R&D labs.
Just remember - The MagnaSpark II is unique. I have yet to find a compatible cap, rotor or electronic module (although they look just like those from MSD), so buy one of each as spares. Maybe a spare, long, plug wire, too, just to be safe.
Here is @Sacto Mitch's great MS II article:
Update, I installed a set of F7's. It ran smoother but felt soggy and I still had the problem at 3200rpm. I decided to remove the carbs and give them light cleaning and also went down to a 50 idle jet. Tried it again and it ran better. Now I'm running 50 idles, F11, 190 airs and it runs 95% better.
I experienced similar things; including backfiring. The great Danny P was SPOT ON; it was a loose mounting screw at the base of the Pertronix module. That cured it.
so does the mounting screw act as a ground?
Yes!
