Is this too much engine movement?

A couple of questions, Craig- Does the car have a transaxle mid-mount installed? Kafer bar? I'm guessing it has stock rubber trans mounts, and how old are they?

That seems excessive. I'm at work so I couldn't turn up the sound. Is it running really rough? I think if you get the car up in the air to where you can see what's going on you will see what is loose. 

No extra trans mount, only the original front rubber mount.  Not sure of it's condition. Car is running rough at that low of RPM's.  Once up to about 1200 it is smooth. 

So what is making it run so rough at low RPM?

The things that come to mind, Craig, are either the rear trans mounts are old and have gone soft or one may have even delaminated (which happens way faster with bigger engines) or the carbs aren't quite balanced? I like Rusty's suggestion to get it up so you can see where it's moving; watch below the trans/engine connection, where the 2 rear mounts are (just above the ends of the frame horns). Al

PS- This is why people with bigger engines will mount an engine support bar.

I just did a carb re-balance today only using my Uni-Syn and thought I had gotten them close.  I'll try again tomorrow and look at the trans mounts.  Would the timing being off affect low idle?  Guess I'll check that too.  

later...   and thanks.

Yes.

You are running Kadrons. Do you have a vacuum advance distributor? Is the vacuum line disconnected? Do you have a balance tube running between the two carbs? what happens if you kink or pinch that sucker?

Is the engine warm right now or is it cold? When you sink/sank/sunk the carbs - was the engine at operating temps? 

I kind of feel like it's the 009 Kadron funk/dance.

Your exhaust cavitating like that can't be healthy for any joints/welds as well imo

Rear and front mounts look real good.  See pics.  Timing was right on at idle and at 3000-3200 RPM.  Kadrons is correct.  Yes, vacuum advance dist, but not connected.  It ran poorly when I had it connected, so I took the line off.  Port on Dist for vacuum plugged or un-plugged, makes no difference.  Engine running at normal temp for testing.  Balance tube is in place.  Pinching off makes no difference.  It almost seems like a vacuum leak somewhere with nothing else causing any changes.  I absolutely cannot get the idle smooth until I get to 1200RPM.  Carbs are sync'd at 1200RPM, and at 800 +/- but at that low, runs too rough.  I'm going to try for 1 more hour before I put this POS on ebay.  I've lost patience with the *rickin' simplicity of this car.  Give me a computer module ---     please. 

Oh, but if you do that you'll miss us all so much! And bombing around in a miata or nissan z 3(whatever it is) just isn't the same!

Have you tried spraying some starting fluid around the carb and intake gaskets to see if one side's sucking air?

Craig - try moving the idle adjustment on each side to see if it smooth's out. Try the right side, then the left side. If one of the sides smooth's the idle out then adjust your linkage accordingly. 

When you sync the carbs is the linkage between them disconnected?  If not, it should be.

Listen to Al.   Spray some carb cleaner around the flanges of the intake manifolds to see where they're leaking.  Sounds like a classic intake manifold leak.

Rusty, Yes I have been adjusting the idle stops on each carb to try to get them the same to smooth out engine.  This week it has not worked.  Something else I don't understand is causing my problem.                                                              

Lane, Yes I disconnect the linkage rods to set the idle stops.

Al, Thanks for the tip on spraying to see a vacuum leak.  I'll try that tomorrow.

ALB, You are right, I'll miss this sight but not the Pain-in-the-arse car.  I've only put 2000 miles on it in the three years I've had it and I have to dick with it more time than I drive it.  That ain't right.

I'll re-post more results tomorrow.  Thanks Guys 

Schmit!  I wrote an entire research paper this morning on my results and forget to hit "POST" and then left the page.  Well here is reply Take 2:  I found one vacuum leak.  The port I had for vac advance on my left carb and was not using was the culprit.  At low RPM you could not tell it was a problem.  At high RPM it almost sucked my finger in.  I plugged it.  I also found my one idle jet was so lose I didn't need a wrench to remove it.  Didn't really help a lot.  I'm convinced I'll have to deal with idle RPM at about 1200 where it runs smooth.  I tried adjusting the mixture screws according to  words from the web and that didn't solve it either.  So my next step is to research new idle jets.  I have a stock 1600 with dual Kadron 40/28's.  I believe my main gets are 130's.  I know that when I rebuilt the carbs last year that I was pleased the jets were per spec.  I just checked my idle jets and they are 55's which is correct I believe but I am running so rich, gasoline is almost pouring out my exhaust pipes.  My exhaust looks like I'm burning oil but it's black.  I'm going to research how to lean out the carbs next before I put a bullet in them.  Any ideas on leaning out carbs would be appreciated.

thanks for your support and well wishes.

For all those hanging on the edge of their seats for the outcome...

I finally did get everything back to normal.  I threw out the text book and just did the logical approach.  I had gas pouring out my tail pipes, flames coming out burning my legs and black soot that choked the neighbors before getting this right.

I had my RPMs at 1100 where it would run smooth but was throwing flames and soot.               I said, Pilot jet turned in = lean.   Pilot jet turned out = rich.  Forget the "Turn the pilot jet out three-four full turns to start.  That didn't work.  I turned the pilot jets out one turn and started the engine.  Fine,  It runs, but not great.  Turned the engine off.  I turned the jets out one more turn (two total).  Started engine, wah-lah.  The engine ran OK and stopped spitting hell fire.  Turned engine off.  Turned the jets out one more turn (three total).  Hellfire back again.  Turned engine off.  Turned jets back in to two total turns out.  YEAH!!!!!  it runs, it runs......    Then I set the idle down to just below 1000RPM and it is performing fine.  I do not know how in the H-E double toothpics it got so screwed up, but at least now it is driveable.  I am going to order a set of Pilot jets one size smaller than what I have and replace them to see if I get better performance.

I'm going to post a new Topic to get info from SOC'ers at sea level and see what they are running for these jets on a standard 1600.

Thanks for listening and helping.  I'll repost after I change the jets.

craig

Good to hear you got it back under control, Craig. Every engine is different, so sometimes some fine tuning is needed to get it to where it's running it's best. If you find that going down 1 step in idle jet size (from 55 to 50) is too much, someone with a jet drill bit set (they're just really, really small drill bits) will be able to drill it out to 52.5. Lots of shops and racers have jet drills, so ask around if it ends up being what the engine needs. After you get the idle circuit all dialled in, you may find the mains a tad on the rich side too, and after all this is over you may find that it runs it's best with the timing retarded a degree or 2. I'm betting you'll find mileage goes up and the engine has just a little more power as a result. Al 

What is a pilot jet??

El Frazoo posted:

What is a pilot jet??

The guy who drives an airplane with no propeller!

Sounds like  jet pilot there.  I figure there is a difference.  I 'spose you can tell I am a Weber kinda guy.

El Frazoo, webbers must have these jets as well.  it's the idle jets that do the mixing up to about 2000rpm.

El Frazoo posted:

Sounds like  jet pilot there.  I figure there is a difference.  I 'spose you can tell I am a Weber kinda guy.

I was just sharing my ignorance on the topic...

I do have a back up 1600 with Kaddys in the box. I am at sea level so I'll be watching this one.

Thanks for the note Al.  I didn't know that one step in size would be a big one.  I assumed a minimal change going from 55 to 50.  I believe I saw that aircooled.net sells  Kadron Idle jets in single mm increments, 51, 52, 53, 54 etc.  $10 for these vs $7 for 50, 55.  I might call Kaddie Shack in CA on Monday and talk to them.  No one has replied to my question about the jets they are running yet, I may be on my own for this.  I'll post results.

OK, results.  Drum roll please.....

I had 55's in for my idle jets.  Couldn't figure out why my car didn't run worth a crap.  After re-building carbs last year car seemed great.  This spring after long winter nap, engine was very cranky (stored with Sta-Bil in gas and even waited to run a complete new full tank of fresh gas through).  Cannot understand the reason for the change.  After the discussion above, I bought two sets of idle jets, 51's and 53's.  I put in the 51's knowing this was not correct for sea level, but I seldom believe what I hear.  Might have been right.  Car ran better but not good.  So I put in the 53's and have been running that way for over a month.  Runs OK.  Not perfect.  Rechecked idle adjustment screws, at least 5 times.  I am getting better gas mileage, but it's still way under 20MPG.  I'm OK with it cause I don't know what else to do.  

My remaining question is:  What in the carbs causes the RPM's to not readily return to  what idle is set at if you are driving and come to a stop?  My engine stays idling high and maybe, slowly returns to low idle.  Is there something else I can check for this?

Missed getting in on this discussion when it stated (darn Viking Europe cruise).  I haven't heard any mention of the dual carb linkage.  Some of the OEM supplied linkage is sloppy and binds.  Don't they use a bell crank linkage which could be bent or out of alignment. Does yours snap right back to the idle stops?  Is spring strong/tight enough?

Is the vacuum advance on distributor not working.  You need that timing advance for acceleration to cruising speed. Are you fixing or replacing dizzy.

ALB - Zoom-Zoom

I had some heat-induced high idle issues on my Carlisle trip this year.  It turns out that one of the nuts on one of the throttle shafts one a touch tight.  The hotter the engine got, the more it would bind.  Since it was only on one carb it would get them out of sync as well.  Hard to find but easy to fix.

I'd agree with the binding issue on the linkage and maybe step it up a little with a stronger throttle return spring.

Is there an after market cross bar hex linkage available?  They seem more precise and can me modded with less friction heim joints.

Center bell crank -

Sigh.....    Could you spray some carburetor cleaner around the base of each carb and around the base of each intake manifold to see if you have a vacuum leak?   That would explain the hesitency to return to idle.  If you have a leak, the idle rpm will change (increase) when the carb cleaner is detected.

thanks

I've always read that these Kadrons idle poorly because they're singles and end up running on two cylinders at low RPM. I hate Kads. Switch to Weber 40s and you won't believe the difference. I spent 700  bucks for new Kads and they started leaking at the shafts within a few weeks. They never ran right. I switched to Delortos and couldn't believe the difference, night and day. 

PaulEllis posted:

I've always read that these Kadrons idle poorly because they're singles and end up running on two cylinders at low RPM. I hate Kads. Switch to Weber 40s and you won't believe the difference. I spent 700  bucks for new Kads and they started leaking at the shafts within a few weeks. They never ran right. I switched to Delortos and couldn't believe the difference, night and day. 

^ X10.

I've owned three speedsters. The first has a 1776 with some 40 IDFs, and I never could get it to run right, but I didn't know what I was doing. The next one had a 1776 with ICTs (single barrel Webers), and it was a "set it and forget it" kind of thing.

When I bought my coach from IM, I wanted to have a hi-po engine with the kind of stone simple reliability of the ICTs, but with higher performance. I had a 2110 built around AJ Sims' "big Kadrons" (46 mm throttle bodies).

They were absolute junk. I never could get the needle and seat to seal, and the thing would only idle for about 30 seconds before it would load up and start puking fuel out the tailpipe. I tried everything, and was despairing.

I called Art Thraen to see if he'd take a run at it. Art gently directed me to lay the Kads aside, and bolt on a set of rebuilt Dellortos. I did. The difference was astounding.

There are guys who love Kads, but they are in the minority. There are guys who have a love/hate relationship with IDFs and all the attendant idle jet issues. But I've never talked to anybody who had anything but good stuff to say about Dellortos. They are all that.

A happy side-note: as my confidence with these carbs grew, I bought a wideband A:F meter and started playing with jetting. I can honestly say I'm pretty fair at getting them set up now, and with some experience can field strip and take care of any issue that's arisen in the past 10 years. If you are reasonably mechanical, you could do it as well. 

Art sold his shop a few years back to his lead mechanic, a young man named Justin. The same guy who has been rebuilding the carbs for 15 years (Dave) is still rebuilding the carbs. The shop is called Blackline Racing now-- it's in Salt Lake City, and I can't recommend them highly enough.

Once you try a nicely set up set of Dells, you can't go back.

Relooking at your photos - is this the front mount?  Rubber looks to be cracked where it should be solid seal to the metal.  This wouldn't cause shaking but could affect shifting and life of nose cone.

With a bad mount or two it will be impossible to set the carbs up as the motor/trans rocks back and forth pulling  on the acc cable. You may not see it but it's there.

WOLFGANG posted:

Relooking at your photos - is this the front mount?  Rubber looks to be cracked where it should be solid seal to the metal.  This wouldn't cause shaking but could affect shifting and life of nose cone.

It's fussy but what going on with this mount? Is that chewed up rubber up top, I can't tell?

WOLFGANG posted:

Relooking at your photos - is this the front mount?  Rubber looks to be cracked where it should be solid seal to the metal.  This wouldn't cause shaking but could affect shifting and life of nose cone.

Thanks for that info.  I didn't know it looked bad.  I'll check it out more.

WOLFGANG posted:

Is there an after market cross bar hex linkage available?  They seem more precise and can me modded with less friction heim joints.

Center bell crank -

That picture is the linkage system on my engine.  

I'll get back under tomorrow and look real close at my joints again.  Thanks