It's not all about motors-a 5speed does wonders

Tony, I've been saying this for years. In fact, when I was contemplating my wish list 11 years ago for my speedster I posted the question here "Big engine or 5 speed?" Torque is great but the closer gearing with the 5 speed is the greatest improvement in drivability, hands down.

Of course, a five speed with a 2 litre stroker makes the package that much sweeter.

From my teens into my late 20's I was fully immersed in the high performance aircooled VW scene, the latter part driving a fairly quick (mid 14's) Cal Look bug for a few years (a good part of that time as my main transportation). 4.37 r&p, 1.48 3rd and 1.12 4th  with 185/70-15 rear tires did not allow for much in the way of highway speeds (3500rpm in 4th was about 55mph), but acceleration was phenomenal. I drove that thing every where- from Vancouver, BC to LA once or twice, Eugene OR 6 or 8 times, Seattle WA too many times to count and tripped all over the southern part of this beautiful province. It just took about 25% longer to get places. If I knew then what I know now about oil viscosity and airflow requirements into the engine compartment we wouldn't have been confined to 3200rpm (a whopping 48 or 50mph) for a good part of the summer to keep it from overheating. I was one of the first to buy Gene Berg's 1st generation of 5 speed kits.

A big, torquey engine is great (and perfect for these cars), but if you really want to take your driving to the next level, a 5 speed is the way to go. A nice, reliable 140-160hp 2 liter- 2276 will cost in the neighborhood of 5-$6,000 (or more) and yet people think 4 or $5,000 for custom gears and the extra leg is outrageous. It is a lot of money (I won't deny it), some people can't justify it, and I realize that. Think of the cost of a transaxle to stand up to that big engine, though, and at $2,000 or more for stock gear ratios (and the beefing necessary for things to survive), the extra cost for the close gears and then having 5th isn't that huge.

It isn't for everybody, but it is one of the sweetest things you can do for your car (and you, of course!). Al

Al, as I think I've mentioned to you I've got a 912 5 speed ($1,000) a complete IRS (about $400) along with torsion tube adaptors and a jig to correctly position and weld them in....(all The Samba purchases)...It's taken me well over a year to find this 'seller guaranteed' stuff...Oh, I also have an Ej22 and a Kennedy Adaptor!....Now I'm hunting for a scissors lift and a larger set of ball so I can start wrenching this stuff together!!!

BTW, I specifically purchased that orange 912E to keep my ego inflated while the VS is laid up as I fumble about this ambitious transplant. 

Topography has something to do with it as well. As a flatlander, I can get away with 4 speed ratios that Terry couldn't, living as he does in the foothills.

I have always wondered what rpm would result with a 5 speed going 70 and a 1600 or so engine?  Anyone know?

It all depends on how you gear it Jack.

One nice thing about a 901 gearbox is 5th gear can be changed while the tranny is still in the car. 

I think my tire measures 26 1/2" and have a 3.88 r/p with a .89 fifth gear my tach is at 3,000 rpm

the five speed gives you a lower ratio third and fourth that really wakes up and uses your power brand. So whether your In the foothills or flat lands it makes a difference.bh

That's a very big plus, too!

I know but I was hoping to hear from someone who has, or has had a 5 speed with whatever gearing they have.

My set up shows me 3,300 RPMs at 70 MPH. This is with a 4.12 R&P and a .821 4th gear and  25" tires.

I don't think a 1600 with gearing this high has near enough torque to make it work.    I have thought that that my 4th gear is as high as a 5 speed would be with whatever gearing that's in any 5 speed xmission.  Anyone know about this?

I just read Anthony's last post.  I wonder which gearing is highest between a 3.88 with a .89 5th and 26 1/2" tire or a 4.12 with a .82 4th and 25" tire.  Must be a chart somewhere showing this.

Anthony says that at 70 mph he's showing 3,000 RPMs with his 5 speed and I'm showing 3,300 with mu 4 speed so this shows that his 5th is higher tyan my 4th ---or do the tires make him geared higher?  Stream of conciousness---sorry.

One thing you must consider is your tire size. That effects the Overall package. The 4:12 R/P with a .82 fourth equals a 3.88R/P with a .89 fourth. When comparing final drive ratios.  Now if your running a type 4 motor you have a wide torque curve and 

can use a slightly different ratio combo to maximize your power brand

Jack, as has been mentioned here before, this online calculator lets you compare any two setups on a graph. Just enter tranny gears, r&p, and tire size and it will show you what speeds to expect at any rpm.

http://tinyurl.com/lk2tvu5

Great chart. My Berg 5 has

1st 3.75

2nd 2.25

3rd 1.58

4th 1.21

5th .89

Final Drive 3.88

With a 26 in. tire the car will do 78 mph @ 3,500 and 112 @ 5,000,

just what I wanted...

Thanks Anthony & Mitch.  That clears up my quesrtions.  I am showing 3,500 RPM at 77 mph so in top gear I'm getting one MPH less than a 5 speed would provide---pretty close.  I wonder what I'd see with a taller tire?  I'll check the chart.

My combo was created for a lot of highway driving so I don't spend too much time in 1st and 2nd.  Thanks for the tutorial and the chart--much appreciated!

Back to the chart

My Verdi sprints, 165 HR 15 are actually 25.40 which also gives me 77 mph...

I thought about the 5-speed conversion with my Suby project. Couldn't justify either the extra bucks (Spent $1100 plus trade-in to get a pro-street 4 speed built with a new 3.44 R&P) or the extra engineering, as I am very much on the ragged edge of my abilities as it is.

What tipped me to staying "easy" on this was a torque chart of the stock 2.2 Subaru. As you can see, straight from the box you are looking at +120 ft-lbs from idle to 6000 rpm, with a peak right around 140 @ 5000. Now, I know some of you guys think those are pissy little numbers & that your engines are doing 20-30 lbs more at peak. And a few of you have the dyno slips or ETs to back that up. But I have to say, the power band of the stock engine is both wide and flat, and my car feels pretty fast, with no kind of lugging issues between gears.

In 4th I'm looking at 70 mph at 3000 rpm.

With a stock redline of 6200, I could (theoretically--certainly not practically) run out of speedometer before I run out of 3rd gear.

Another gear would be an excellent thing, I agree. I just don't think it's needed with a Suby.

remember when Stan wrote: "Topography has something to do with it as well. As a flatlander, I can get away with 4 speed ratios that Terry couldn't, living as he does in the foothills."?

There's a lot in that statement.  There's also two ways of looking at this (but mostly, we've been seeing one, here).

One way is to look at the tranny with "stock" gearing in 1'st - 4'th with the fifth as a Big overdrive for the freeways.  Terrific for SoCal and the midwest, not so hot for us in New England or the mountain states or northern Yorkshire into Scotland, etc.  What you need there is a better selection of gearing to optimize your engine RPM to current conditions.

So then, the other way to look at it is not for 5'th to be as much of a pure overdrive, but integrated into the gearing transitions so that you have smooth, predictable gaps between gears to allow you to seek the best gear for current conditions.  You may (or may not) give up a bit on the high end, but going from gear to gear will be much more pleasurable on the way through And you'll never (or at least seldom) have to be in a gear too low or too high just because that's all you have.

My last bicycle was a 12-speed.....two major ratios and six minor ratios.  It was OK, but when I rode with friends they always had a couple gears lower and a couple gears higher than me, PLUS several more spaced out in the middle.  

My new bike is a 22-speed and not only gives me a higher top end, but I have a lot more gears to choose from throughout the range.  I may shift more often, true, but I can always find a gear that's perfect for current conditions to optimize my power.  THAT's what a 5-speed should do for you.

Gordon, you right on track. The five allows one to use the power band to adjust to driving conditions. A stock gear box has either 3.80 or 3.78 first and 2.06 Second. That's if you use a stock or ground mainshaft. Your stock third is usually a 1.26 or some have a 1.30 and then the stock fourth gear of .89. Ring and pinion is either 4.12 or 3.88. Now the five allows that third and fourth gear to be closer ratios. 

I have ran a 1.69/1.70 third with a 1.30 & 1.26 fourth and either .89 or .82 fifth gear depending on which r/p I had in at the time. These combos where fun to drive stop light to stop light. Like a old Muncie close ratio box. 

The other combos which suit these cars are a 1.48 third and either 1.21, or 1.14 fourth and either .89 or .82 fifth depending on which ring & pinion.

the latter combo allows you to drop down a gear to pass a car, or pull a grade and on the twisty roads one can out run some high dollars toys on the road.

I hope that clears things up.

True, but we've all been in traffic where the spread between gears leaves you either whining or lugging...

BTW, 3.88 r/p  3.80, 2.06, 1.48, 1.17, .089

True all. But I am very happy with my 4 speed. The only fault there is, very occasionally I find 2nd a might bit too short and third long. But other than that I'm good. 2nd is good for 25 to almost 60, 3rd is 45 to 95. This is ON the powerband, from 2500 to redline at 6500. That is my very wide powerband, and where I agree with Ed that torque(Subaru) is king. I have 140 plus foot pounds from about 2500 to 6000, where it starts to fall off.

My trans is a stock geared type3 IRS converted back to swing with a 3.44:1 final. Tires are 195/60/15 diameter 24.2 inches according to Bridgestone.

Why did Porsche go back to a 4 speed on the 930 turbo? A few reasons, one, it's stronger, two, the engine has a wide torque-band, three, they wanted to keep it on boost longer lessening turbo lag problems. A torquey motor has similar benefits to the turbo, less time worrying about what gear to be in and just driving.

Gearing is never perfect and often must be changed for specific race tracks. But we don't do that on the street, and there is no perfect gearing for the street. Power can negate the need for perfect gearing I say. Carlisle AutoX course? 2nd gear all the way, never need to shift. Lucky gearing for that course on my part.

Or you might just like having 5 closely spaced short gears for zooming around town with.I'm not into touring, two or three hours in a speedster seat has my old truck drivers back screaming for mercy.

I think many of us use a rolled up towel as a support that's moved about a bit to disperse and spread the pain!

Since most of my driving is on the highway I had my 901 5 speed built with an 'overdrive' 5th gear.

When I'm cruising along at 70 mph I want my engine to be turning around 2800 to 3000 rpm.  Anything more than that and the engine sounds too busy to me.

I had a 4.12/82 combo and really didn't like it.  The gap between 3rd and 4th was too wide.  I switched to 3.88/89 and thought it was a better combo, but I still didn't like the high rpm at cruising speed.

Before I bought my 901 gearbox I had planned on installing a 3.44 r&P to get the highway rpms down and space out the gears a bit. (not recommended on a small hp engine).

Ron, at 80 I'm running around 3500, and it doesn't feel like it's too fast(engine speed). And you're right, you need good power to push tall gears, especially uphill.

I guess what I didn't say was that for the money, my 4 speed is pretty close to perfect. Slightly taller 1st and 2nd would be nice. To get that extra(5th) gear isn't worth the small return on that big investment.

I'd rather have excellent brakes , a well tuned motor and suspension, power galore, and a good shifter. Less money spent and an all-around better package.

Your mileage may vary. Lap times don't lie.

Danny - Wouldn't a VW/Porsche 914 "901" 5 spd be an inexpensive conversion in a 550 Spyder?  Out of box you'd have 5 forward speeds.  Even shift linkage from 914 would be a snap (as it was designed for that layout - tail or side shift would be fine). Maybe $250 tops (unless rebuild and different gears needed)? Even easier with the TIV engine as you could leave it flat cooled if you have extra 6" to firewall.  Know Lenny has a TIV - is his to 4 spd VW trans? Assume pinion gear needs to be flipped in VW trans for a Spyder application?

The problem is to convert a 901 back to swing axle. If I converted my whole rear suspension to IRS, not easy or cheap, I'd consider a 901 or 915. IRS can't be done like a Bug or a 911 or 944, the engine is now in the way.

Yes, it is a tail shift. Side shift would require a whole new shifter and mechanism.

Lenny has a VW 4 speed with a 3.88:1 final.

Yes, ring gear/diff needs to be flipped. There is a swing conversion for 901, but not cheap nor easy to find.

I live at Lake Tahoe so I love the mountain roads. I have been thinking about the 5 speed because of 3rd being such a dog. I did just convert to 1.4 rockers and that really woke up 3rd gear. I still may got to the 5 speed or I may just sell this car and start over now that I sort of know what I am doing. Not!