John Eastman and his SAS CAB.

I sent him a message via Facebook messenger and included the link to this topic.

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Only Steve Lawing actually knows how many cars SAS is building.  SAS had a few supporters on this site.  I know because I was one for a few years, but I have been a proud thorn in his side for the last five years, which is when I took delivery of my car. 

Over time, Lawing's defenders sold their cars, which seemed to be the main reason they defended the brand, just to keep a higher resale value for their cars.  Various reasons have been given by the owners for selling SAS cars.  The same guys gave lots of reasons why Lawing wouldn't deliver the cars he promised.

Lawing may still be building cars, but, if so, he is not delivering them to the unlucky buyers who have paid from $10,000 to $18,000 in payments.  I did some calculations a few months ago, and the top four guys on the buyers' list have a total wait time of 46 years!  That's not a typo, the total is 46 years.  Of course, no one except Lawing knows how many guys have actually paid deposits and how many are in the queue.  Those waiting developed a list that had 19 depositers, but the real number may be in the hundreds.  Only Lawing knows, and he's not talking.

Our hobby is different things to different owners.  Some of us want to recapture days gone by, some want a performance car, some want the look and feel of a 1950's car without the attendant cost of an original.  What none of us need is an unscrupulous crook that sabotages the hopes and dreams of an aspiring owner.  One rotten apple like Lawing has a rippling effect on our hobby and its reputation.

I am occasionally contacted privately by those on the SAS list about options for recouping their investment, legal action, etc.  Guys like Lawing know the ropes about scams and how best to stay one step ahead of the legal system.  Lawing got a judgement against him for $424,000 over 10 years ago for restitution to 24 victims of his first car scam, where he was taking deposits for hot rod builds, but not delivering cars.   A few months after the judgement, Lawing declared bankruptcy in the Easter District of Tennessee Bankruptcy Court, and the judgement was wiped out.  Is this a great country or what?

Most of us aren't broke, but we're not 1%'s either.  We have worked for what we have and expect pleasure from our cars and value for money invested.  Lawing takes that dream and shoves it where the sun don't shine.  He's not apologetic about his actions, he's laughing at the poor guys who keep falling for his scam.  I'm not particularly religious, but if there is a supreme being and a place in the hereafter where our lives are weighed and valued, I hope Lawing gets his just reward.

With Lawing's behavior and the current political climate, a cabinet post seems likely, if not guaranteed.  Perhaps Secretary of the Treasury, eh?

John responded and I copied his response into a site PM to you.

Thanks Tom. Thank you Jim. I am a long time small business owner and have always tried to do what is ethical and right. I have had 30 + years of success  as proof that this practice is best. I shouldn't be ,but I am amazed at the lengths some will go to cheat others. It would probably be much less work to be honest. This story has my interest for some reason, thanks again for the information. I am glad I have Carey at Special Edition doing the work on my Speedster. I cant wait for it to be finished.

BTW:  John Eastman’s car is with a different owner who actually posts on here from time to time and seems happy with the car.  AFAIK, that was the only roadster produced by SAS with a power operated convertible top.  Pretty car, too.  It lived a little over an hour from me.

With Lawing's behavior and the current political climate, a cabinet post seems likely, if not guaranteed.  Perhaps Secretary of the Treasury, eh?

How did left wing politics get here?

I'm offended...

I am the current steward of John Eastman's car.  I bought it from the second owner about 18 months ago.

I absolutely love the car.  The only real issue I have is that the fuel pump needs replaced, which has nothing to do with build quality.

I'm also not very happy with the paint job, as there are visible drips on the passenger side windshield frame.

I love that it has all the bells and whistles of the original Subaru donor car, which was a 2009 Legacy.   OBDII port, anti-lock brakes, cruise control, you name it.

Here is a pic of me at a small local car show

Jim Gilbert,

Sorry if my "left wing politics" offends you.  Delete me and you won't see any of my future threads.

BTW, I consider my politics as middle-of-the-road.  During the 8 years of the Obama administration, some of our contributors flooded the "Anything Goes" section with political cartoons.  Suddenly, when Trump was elected, not one cartoon.  Funny how that goes, isn't it?  If it's not your ox being gored, it's comical.

Jethro, thanks for the post. I was wondering about the build quality of your car. It Sounds like your car is in fact a well made well engineered car. I then see a post from 2016 by Seduction. The car he inspected did in fact look horrible. The many pictures prove this.  It appears as if different employees with no skills welded and even engineered some of that car.

 The fact that the owner of SAS takes deposits and with no intention of delivering cars boggles my mind. He is the Bernie Madoff of the replica Speedster world!!

I remember years ago when I first found SOC - SAS was called SAW.  Guess the name change was due to bankruptcy and life went on. 

I got caught up in the CMC George Levine version of a very similar Ponzi scheme. This was in 1989 before the internet was popular so getting the word around was via hard copy car magazines.  I was early in the game that eventually shut CMC down by the Florida State Attorney Office.  I did finally over a near 2 year period get all the parts to build my car --- so I can no longer use missing parts as an excuse.  CMC did get thousands of Speedster (Gazelle, MGTD) bodies out there so it wasn't not pushing cars out -- it was the number of parts back ordered over a lengthy period of time.  It took me 5 shipments of cheap front turn signals to get a matching pair.  I finally stopped returning the single ones they would send and requested another until 2 finally matched.  Why they just didn't send 2 that matched in box?

The badly built car was made in 2007.  Mine was made in 2012.  Maybe build quality changed in those 5 years.  I don't know.   I have never heard anyone complain about their car other than Jim Kelly, which is well documented.

All I can say is that mine is well made.  Being a mid-engine design certainly makes them different.

If you look at the red car Seduction Motors inspected in 2016 including the 100 or so pics.. You see a different story on this particular SAS build.

I agree.  If you ever get to Central Ohio, I'd be happy to let you inspect mine.

I would love that. The reason this is all so interesting to me is the amazing design of the SAS cars if built as advertised.

My impression is that build quality varied depending on how much pressure was on Lawing.  John Hallstrand's car, the very first one delivered, seemed VERY well made, but none I saw after that had paint quality or fit and finish as good as John's.

It would be about a 4 hour drive, @Jimmy V.

I really need to get to one of the gatherings so many of you can see my car in person.... either the Tour de SMO or Carlisle.  

 

Not sure if you’ve read any of this:

https://www.tapatalk.com/group.../the-queue-t102.html

As a very long time "car guy" and one who has built/rebuilt more then a few cars in my day, I wouldn't put SAW/SAS cars into the "Amazing" category.  What Lawing did was engineer a tube frame that would accept the front drive-train of a 4-wheel-drive car, the Subaru Impreza, and position that drive train (Engine, transaxle, drive axles and front MacPherson Struts) in the back seat of a Speedster, holding the normally turning "front" wheels straight with adjustable links (think of a fancy turnbuckle).  

The front axles were, again, Subaru MacPherson struts taken from the rear of the donor car, since Subaru ran the same MacPherson Struts front and rear with different wheel hubs.  Careful choice of front spindles from somewhere gets you a nice front end that does the job with the original rack and pinion and tie rods.

In fact, Lawing also used the original Subaru Engine/Peripheral computer, since it came with the donor anyway, and he found that if you had the engine, transaxle, all the engine/transaxle sensors, donor catalytic convertors AND the entire dashboard included from the same donor car, then the computer would think everything from the original Impreza was there and just fine and would make everything run.   Otherwise, the security system would shut everything down.  THAT is why if you open Jethro's "frunk" and look under the carpet just behind the Speedster dash area you'll find the entire Subaru Impreza original dash instrument cluster, hidden, but still operating.   He also has a "Speedster" set of dash gauges in his "normal" dash.

Anyway, enough ranting.  The guy can build a nice custom car, Hot Rod or Speedster, when he wants to, but he seems to be much better at convincing people to give him down and increment payments than actually building a car for them.  I have seen his operation (back around 2006 or so) and said back then that he was a very good designer, did good work (for a 2 - 3 man shop) but he had very poor business sense.  That has been proven over and over.  It appeared that his major downfall was people on this site talking up the cars he had earlier delivered and driving demand for them up way beyond his ability to produce with a 2 - 3 man shop.  He had no "standard" design and, instead, re-designed to a great extent every car he produced, thereby limiting output to 2 - 4 cars per year, at most.  As his orders increased, he never allowed his operation to scale upward in production so the backlog grew to what is now, as we've seen, something like 42 YEARS.  So it seems that he has been fighting in court a lot and declaring bankruptcy and managing to continue in some form, still bilking customers.

 

Thanks for your take on this Gordon. I am bored waiting for Carey to get my Speedster finished and somehow got interested in learning more about the SAS cars and the story of the ongoing issues. I think it stemmed from watching youtube videos of speedsters and having all the SAS videos come up. He makes the cars appear very nice . The Idea of having the entire Subaru donor dash under the carpet to me is a little bit of a hack job. I think I will be happy with my old Fiberfab once I get it back.  To me Simple is sometimes better. Maybe that is why one of my ex-wives always told me I was simple minded...  LOL. Would that be a compliment?? Anyway, just tying to get my speedster fix until mine is back. This engine conversion project started back in Feb. for me this is a long wait I cant even imagine waiting multiple years for a car.

Jim wrote: "The Idea of having the entire Subaru donor dash under the carpet to me is a little bit of a hack job."

Well, it IS hidden in the trunk and not exactly obvious.

Maybe it's a bit hackey, but you must also understand that the cheapest vehicle management system to use was from the donor, it was/is very good, operationally, and also provided a high level of anti-theft capability in the car.  There are multiple little computers running in there and they all have to agree that everything is cool AND that they all share the same VIN before they allow the engine to start and operate.  You can't just leave out, say, the transmission or dash/gauge part and expect it to operate - it won't.  So the easiest (and cleverest) way to do it was to use everything, that he could from the donor car and that's what he did.

I have always been impressed with Steve Lawing's design and engineering talents.    

I have never been impressed with his business acumen.

Carey uses a standard Suby ECU, although they have to get it tweaked, I think. AFAIK there aren’t any spare parts hanging on with the exception of the throttle cable which is spinning a speed input driver. Redundant, in my case, since I have a GPS speedo now. @chines1
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Gordon Nichols posted:

 

I have always been impressed with Steve Lawing's design and engineering talents.    

I have never been impressed with his business acumen.

What are you talking about, Gordon- he built a few cars to show what he can do, convinces people to give him money, wait in line forever and never has to produce anything. He's f*&$%@# brilliant!

PS- no wonder the world wants to go to America...

I think Ed said it was like $600 to have the Subarus wiring harness cut and modified for his engine (and you supplied the harness).  At least with total OEM wiring & bits you have ability to read and interpret all the OEM diagnostic info.

I was surprized at how much info there is at the https://www.tapatalk.com/group.../the-queue-t102.html

Just click on Forum and there is a plethora of info.

A couple models of gauges don't look too bad and could actually be used if set in a tooled bezel.

In my Conversion Carey at Special Edition is using the stock Subaru ECU and the drive by wire for the throttle. I will have the diagnostic port and full warrantee on the short block from Subaru. I saw a Spyder with the Subaru conversion while I was dropping my car off. One touch of the starter button and the engine purrs to life as it warms it throttles down and idles perfectly. Now that is what I am looking for. I have Hot Rod'ed and wrenched on all makes and models of cars for over 40 years. Now I want a nice fun ride I don't have to fiddle with every time I use it. Good by Type 1 engines I have had my fun. Good luck and have fun to all who still enjoy them. They can be a good time, but I have had enough of them. No matter how hot or big I built one, I was never fully satisfied. ( I did have a type 4 engine a guy in New jersey built 20 years ago for me. This engine was amazing and appeared bullet proof. I thrashed that engine in a 914 auto-cross car for 5 years and nothing could beat it). Thanks for listening.

I believe that sometime around 10 year ago, Subaru implemented the "all or nothing" aspect of their ECU.  I also believe that Carey uses the older version of the ECU that doesn't require everything to be connected and working.  He's smart like that.

Your are correct. I believe he told me the donor car he bought for me was a 2007 Impeza.

Yes, while we can use top end components up to '09 the ECU and main harness is '07, plus the motors are new...  In 08 Subaru added immobilizers and required the connection of several other components (gauge cluster is one) in order for the ECU to work.  There are emulators that can mimic all of the "all or nothing" design, but I've heard mixed reviews about their longevity and when they go bad you're dead in the water...

Jim Kelly posted:

Jim Gilbert,

Sorry if my "left wing politics" offends you.  Delete me and you won't see any of my future threads.

BTW, I consider my politics as middle-of-the-road.  During the 8 years of the Obama administration, some of our contributors flooded the "Anything Goes" section with political cartoons.  Suddenly, when Trump was elected, not one cartoon.  Funny how that goes, isn't it?  If it's not your ox being gored, it's comical.

Oh I don't know. I expect I'll just be a thorn when the time comes.

YES, Carey. I believe Suby went drive by wire throttle in 2006 in the Impreza( two in my driveway!), maybe earlier in the Legacy. Then they went and did all that fancy immobilizer stuff.

So Carey, you use the VW speedo cable to drive the VSS (vehicle speed sensor)? That's cool, and is what I'm doing when I get around to my cruise control install.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Jim wrote: "The Idea of having the entire Subaru donor dash under the carpet to me is a little bit of a hack job."

Well, it IS hidden in the trunk and not exactly obvious.

Maybe it's a bit hackey, but you must also understand that the cheapest vehicle management system to use was from the donor, it was/is very good, operationally, and also provided a high level of anti-theft capability in the car.  There are multiple little computers running in there and they all have to agree that everything is cool AND that they all share the same VIN before they allow the engine to start and operate.  You can't just leave out, say, the transmission or dash/gauge part and expect it to operate - it won't.  So the easiest (and cleverest) way to do it was to use everything, that he could from the donor car and that's what he did.

I have always been impressed with Steve Lawing's design and engineering talents.    

I have never been impressed with his business acumen.

My issue with having the donor dash is the probability of some of those parts failing... then your going hunting unless the ECU tells you exactly the fault code as to what is wrong.  While that may be able to help you is does feel a little backward, no, say back handed, no, backyard. 

Lastly, as far as I can see, the allegations against him, suggests that he is well schooled in activities that usually land you in crow bar hotel or buried under a land fill site.

How this has evaded the justice system is astounding.

And how this clown has escaped being beaten within an inch of his life escapes me.

Yes @DannyP, we use only 06/07 because we can keep the stock ECU with only a modified harness and retain the DBW throttle and OBD-II diagnostics.  The motors are the same for a few more years, but since we buy complete donor cars it doesn't make sense for us to use 08/09.  Subaru repined the ECU so that you cannot simply put an 07 computer in an 08/09 car and bypass immobilizer features.

While I do have an interest in some of the later motors, I am not a fan of the Stinger standalone solution.  It warms up like carburetors and is limited in its ability to self tune and self monitor.  As good as they are, you just can't compete with a factory ECU when it comes to reliability and usability.  I am also not a fan of the emulator box required to run a later motor (and not have to hide a bunch of Subaru accessories in the trunk).  Nothing inherently wrong with it, but as I mentioned above, if it fails there is no quick workaround, and at the time of my research it was only available out of Australia and you had to send your ECU and gauge cluster to the company so they could program the emulator.  No quick roadside fix for that....

Yes, we use a cable driven speed sensor from the UK.  It can run inline for those with a cable driven speedo, or you can run it standalone for those with GPS or Hall effect speedos.  

DannyP posted:

And how this clown has escaped being beaten within an inch of his life escapes me.

That's what I keep saying! The Lousville Slugger solution right in front of his face would be far more effective (and way more satisfying) than some silly old court judgement.

FWIW the wire harness and ecu in my car is 1995 vintage. I wanted old, low-mile stuff to avoid doing the work and spending the money Carey does. You still can, too, but probably not on a jobber scale.

@chines1, you may have noticed in another thread that I am considering installing Rostra cruise control. Can you post information about that UK speed sensor?

Thanks.

Its made by RJES in the UK.  We stock P/N MY81 which works on the 06/07 Subaru ECUs and generates the 5v square wave signal that ECU is after for speed reference.

They make a few other models for other years of Subaru, but I am not familiar with them at all.  If what we stock suits your needs I'd be happy to supply one.  If not you can find RJES's parts at rjes.com 

Thanks for that link Carey