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JPS - one unhappy customer's advice.

TomD (hacksaw57)TomD (hacksaw57)
DO NOT BUY A JPS !!!!! DO NOT BUY A JPS!!!!!!!!!!!

John Steele is a man without integrity!!!! He does not live up to his commitments! I have experienced this many times - yet again at Carlisle when he failed to show up to look at my car as promised MULTIPLE TIMES.

All I have ever wanted from JPS was for this car to work. Is that unreasonable?

John Steele considers his cars "used VWs" (read one of his latest emails to me below). So understand what you are really buying in John Steele's eyes - a used VW! Nothing more.

I have tried to be reasonable. I have tried to give JPS every opportunity to help. Result is always half-hearted and produces poor results.

BEWARE. You WILL be on your own. I have been promised many many things and received 1/10th of what was promised.

Warranty - forget it. How good is it if JPS won't help you or find someone to help you?

Following is what John says to me despite NOT EVEN taking 10 minutes to meet me and look at the car as he promised he would do (multiple times) at Carlisle last weekend (both on Saturday and Sunday):
"Because, I have seen the abuse that you have done to that car and I paid for mistakes you made already, even giving you a discount on the purchase price because I believed you would understand about owning a kit car especially one as complicated as yours. I have tried everything you asked within reason to help you with the car. Now it is your turn to meet me halfway. I am still willing to help but if you think legal action over a used VW is necessary go ahead."


John P. Steele JPS Motorsports, Inc.
11323 Vanowen St.
North Hollywood, CA 91605
(818) 985-8891
www.jps-motorsports.com

The abuse he talks about refers to brake rotors that overheated because they do not cool very well with drum skins on (How should I know that?) & a nerf bar that was torn off the first time I drove it because they were never test fitted for clearance by JPS. The discount was to honor the price he quoted me in writing and I had to fight for weeks to get him to honor.

I LOVE THIS CAR. IT IS MY DREAM CAR OR LEAST IT COULD BE, but it has been an abomination thanks to JPS.

NOW John wants to ship the car back to JPS again (at my expense). He wants me to spend more money on this expensive piece of junk that needs a total going over. How do I meet him halfway when he won't even look at the car first hand when he has the chance? How do I trust him to fix it when he did not do it last time it was sent back? Why should I spend more money to fix what should not be a problem at all????

Does this look like an abused car?
Be sure to check out the result of driving home 90 MILES in the rain. 4 inches of "Lake Steele" water came off my floor into my 12X12 SHOP VAC CONTAINER!

BEWARE. UNLESS YOU LIVE IN JPS PROXIMITY YOU WILL GET STUCK WITH LITTLE OR NO WAY OUT.

There is much much much more to this story. All documented in hundreds of emails. I have tried to work quietly & constructively, but it is not and has not been working. So I am going public with my advice. John Steele is an arrogant and unreasonable man to try to do business with. Nothing is ever his responsibility and he does not do much of what he says he will do. Many of my problems persist from the beginning with no resolution strategy from John Steele.

BY THE WAY - John says water damaged carpet is NOT covered under warranty.
Original Post

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TomD (hacksaw57)TomD (hacksaw57)
DO NOT BUY A JPS !!!!! DO NOT BUY A JPS!!!!!!!!!!!

John Steele is a man without integrity!!!! He does not live up to his commitments! I have experienced this many times - yet again at Carlisle when he failed to show up to look at my car as promised MULTIPLE TIMES.

All I have ever wanted from JPS was for this car to work. Is that unreasonable?

John Steele considers his cars "used VWs" (read one of his latest emails to me below). So understand what you are really buying in John Steele's eyes - a used VW! Nothing more.

I have tried to be reasonable. I have tried to give JPS every opportunity to help. Result is always half-hearted and produces poor results.

BEWARE. You WILL be on your own. I have been promised many many things and received 1/10th of what was promised.

Warranty - forget it. How good is it if JPS won't help you or find someone to help you?

Following is what John says to me despite NOT EVEN taking 10 minutes to meet me and look at the car as he promised he would do (multiple times) at Carlisle last weekend (both on Saturday and Sunday):
"Because, I have seen the abuse that you have done to that car and I paid for mistakes you made already, even giving you a discount on the purchase price because I believed you would understand about owning a kit car especially one as complicated as yours. I have tried everything you asked within reason to help you with the car. Now it is your turn to meet me halfway. I am still willing to help but if you think legal action over a used VW is necessary go ahead."


John P. Steele JPS Motorsports, Inc.
11323 Vanowen St.
North Hollywood, CA 91605
(818) 985-8891
www.jps-motorsports.com

The abuse he talks about refers to brake rotors that overheated because they do not cool very well with drum skins on (How should I know that?) & a nerf bar that was torn off the first time I drove it because they were never test fitted for clearance by JPS. The discount was to honor the price he quoted me in writing and I had to fight for weeks to get him to honor.

I LOVE THIS CAR. IT IS MY DREAM CAR OR LEAST IT COULD BE, but it has been an abomination thanks to JPS.

NOW John wants to ship the car back to JPS again (at my expense). He wants me to spend more money on this expensive piece of junk that needs a total going over. How do I meet him halfway when he won't even look at the car first hand when he has the chance? How do I trust him to fix it when he did not do it last time it was sent back? Why should I spend more money to fix what should not be a problem at all????

Does this look like an abused car?
Be sure to check out the result of driving home 90 MILES in the rain. 4 inches of "Lake Steele" water came off my floor into my 12X12 SHOP VAC CONTAINER!

BEWARE. UNLESS YOU LIVE IN JPS PROXIMITY YOU WILL GET STUCK WITH LITTLE OR NO WAY OUT.

There is much much much more to this story. All documented in hundreds of emails. I have tried to work quietly & constructively, but it is not and has not been working. So I am going public with my advice. John Steele is an arrogant and unreasonable man to try to do business with. Nothing is ever his responsibility and he does not do much of what he says he will do. Many of my problems persist from the beginning with no resolution strategy from John Steele.

BY THE WAY - John says water damaged carpet is NOT covered under warranty.

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FM Former Member
i really feel bad for you.

the body was new, but wasnt the chassis indead, used?

i know in your mind it should be a perfect car, and i have no idea how much money you paid for it, but it is a fiberglass body, hand built car built by a small shop. it is not even in the same category as IM (who pumps out many more times the cars).

judging from your post - i bet both of you are sorry you ever met each other.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Vince:

Scotch has way less calories than beer - remember that...

You always hate to see someone pay good money for their dream car (and how many of us really like the looks of a 356 coupe?) and then see the dream turn to a horror show because the builder gives them far less than they contracted for.

Sure, Steele's cars are built on a "used" VW pan, which is reconditioned to "as new" condition by either VS (who he gets his pans from often) or JPS. That means that you trash everything except the central tunnel and transmission horns and put in all new stuff (how else would it have disk brakes on it??)

For Steele to say that this is a "used VW" is ludricrous and he knows it. He's just trying to get out of the legitimate expense of making the less-than-acceptable product that he delivered live up to what he promised, which was a "new", problem-free 356A coupe.

It's too bad, too, because we've seen him deliver some (apparently) high quality, show winning cars to others (always, seemingly, to customers nearby on the West Coast where they drop in often during the build to make sure he's not cutting corners). I guess the reality is that if you're not sitting in his shop daily or weekly watching him every step of the way he'll whip something shoddy out to say it's done, get your last check, push it out the door (literally, if Tom and Kelly's cars are any example) and walk away. You are left asking yourself; "Why in hell does he DO that??"

I think 356 Replica Owners and future Replica owners deserve a hell of a lot better treatment after spending the far side of Thirty Grand for a NEW car.

You wouldn't get that from Beck or IM or SAS or even Vintage, so why should we put up with it from JPS?? (and let's not forget Eddy Karyadis' JPS Coupe catching fire on the way to Morro Bay - but I guess that was Eddy's fault, for driving his new car, right??)

Time to get the word out.
Terry NuckelsTerry Nuckels'04 JPS Speedster NorCal
Tom,
Sorry about your problems. It's no fun to expect one thing and get another.
But here's the bottom line.
This is OLD NEWS.
Go back and read past threads on this.
You can rant and rave, threaten legal action, Hell, fly into LA and stand in front of JPS with a sign stating Steele's a crook!
You might get some satisfaction out of it, you will definitely spend some more money.
I've said this before. Cut your losses. Fix the car yourself. Take advantage of those around you who have offered to help. Make it your car.
I know that's not what you signed up for but it's what you have.
MusbJimMusbJim'14 VS SoCal Supporting Member
Providing a new 'used-car' (kit on older VW chasis or whatever) is one thing...

While in Carlisle, telling a customer face-to-face to come back in the morning to the JPS display area to discuss his concerns with that 'used-car', is another thing...

Then to skip out the back door to avoid making contact with that customer is BullS**t, ChickenS**t, or any other term for cowardice!

JPS has shown to be very capable of building excellent, show-quality cars (as manifested by Gerd's car and others). JPS has also shown his generous side by lending his personal Speedster for use by out-of-town visitors. It's easy to be a supportive mfg when things go well, the true test of character & integrity comes when thing don't go as smoothly.

On a final note;

1.) I've personally seen the #1 JPS coupe at Carlisle (so-so finish).

2.) I've personally seen Tom Dewalt's JPS Coupe (saw many sub-standard quality issues).

3.) I've personally seen Eddy Karedys JPS Coupe burst into flames (might be a point of concern).

4.) I've also seen the other light green JPS Coupe in SoCal. The owner had to climb in the car on the passenger-side because the driver-side door handle was not functional.

In light of my personal observations of these JPS Coupes, I would suggest the following applies...

90% of all JPS Coupes are still on the road...the other 10% actually made it home!

...I'm just saying...
Alan MerklinAlan MerklinDrclock - Elkins, West Virginia Supporting Member
First ,it is way out of line to state that a hand crafted speedster is a used VW. as Gordon stated the only items retained is the center tunnel and wishbone rear suspension..... a bucket of crap that is.

I have constructed 15 speedsters and owned / built a total of 39 various kit replica's, two street rods so I feel I have enough knowledge to chime in here. I have inspected Tom's JPS coupe and it is not something that would exit my back yard hobby shop. Poor construction , poor trim work, poor sealing and now it's a smoking crop duster.

A couple of years ago, I was retained and dispatched by Steele to perform warranty work for JPS on "Neil's" speedster in NW PA. Upon inspection, I found this speedster to a less than craftsman like build. I hope Neil reads this I know he can add his own validation .

Tom, I will stand behind you though this and certainly more than willing to be a witness in any part of an action(s) that you proceed with.

Mr. Steele, I know in fact that you DO read these posts, do the right thing and make this right at your expense. A satisfied customer is your best advertisement. As you are well aware, this venue has potential for your future client base.

~ Alan













P paulg
Boy this is disturbing! I was on this sight about 6 months ago.I left and came back. I find these cars appealing. They look really cool and I've read they drive better then the original ones. I am still considering buying one. It is normal to want to find out about what they cost and which company makes a good one. IM appears to be the best but the most expensive.A stripper speester appears to start at or above 40 grand. Then you have Vintage,Beck,and Thunder Ranch offering products in the mid 30's reasonably optioned out. You then have SAS that also offers a mid 30 product but with a water cooled Subaru engine as standard. The concept appears to offer some maintenance advantages over the others. All the companies appear to offer a warranty (although I'm unsure about IM) and offer good customer service. Then you get to JPS. Great websight. Also offers the clearest info on products and prices. They also seem to be the cheapest. A well optined car for under 30 grand. This leads me to want to say 'you get what you pay for".However I have read enough reviews to know that JPS has made some good cars. Being that these are custom built "new cars" there is always ging to be variations in the build from unit to unit. JPS appears to be the most severe in this respect. I read 6 months ago about Tom Dewalt and Kelly Frazer's issues with JPS. And here it is still going on. John Steele has been in business long enough to know that you need to stand behind your products.It seems to me other then poor build quality the only way a coupe could leak over an inch of water in the cabin would be poking holes in it around the windshield or going over rutted road causing the floor pans to tear or separate. I'm not buying that scenario so I can only assume it is a lack of sealing around the front or rear glass or gaps in and around floor pans due to poor build quality.The fact that Mr. Steele will not talk to Tom further about it destroys any confidence I had in JPS. I guess I'll have to spend some more money when I'm ready to buy. I'm deleting their web sight from my computer.
Stan GalatStan Galat
Q: What's the deal?

A: When people are in the market to buy a dream, they will nearly always look past evidence and reason and chase the object of desire with hard-earned money in a way they never would with any other purchase. John Steele sells dreams, and he's very good at it (the selling part). He's built some great looking cars, but he's never built one that's even approaching "weather tight", and this was well documented before the coupe project was even an idea in John Steele's head. John is John- he can't be Henry Reisner, or Boyd Coddington, or anybody else- he builds cars the way he can and wants to. They look great right out of the chute. They leak. They have lousy engines, sourced from the lowest bidder. At least three of them have caught fire in the last three years. Looking the other way, or wishing it were otherwise, or "holding his feet to the fire", or threatening legal action will only lead to further frustration. What was promised is irrelevant. John is John, and can't be anything else.

This is old news. This sort of problem has been documented back to at least 2002. It's been gummed to death- but it won't stop the next guy who wants a replica coupe from believing he can get the car of his dreams from JPS- because the dream pushes evidence and reason to the side almost every time.

It's the recurring theme of the Speedster Owners website: "If you wish something hard enough, you can make it so". This kind of Pollyanna reasoning applies to how the cars are titled (illegally, 95% of the time), how they are insured (incorrectly, for the most part), whether sales tax is owed (the state says "yes"- most builders say "no"), and most fundamentally- the reputation of a particular builder.

Some guy looking for a coupe just plunked down a deposit to SAS for a car with a "projected delivery" in the 12 month neighborhood- never mind that there are multiple guys on this site who have waited YEARS for a car that wasn't a prototype. Steve Lawson has been sued over this exact issue. And yet, "after a long talk" with Steve- the deposit was sent. The buyer will be truly shocked and indignant when it takes him 4 years to get a car. He bought a dream.

Yeah, due to the exchange rate, and increasing materials costs- Intermeccanicas have become expensive. Every IM owner I've ever come across, met, or corresponded with would tell you it was worth every penny.

On the other end of the spectrum- nearly every Vintage Speedster owner is satisfied with his car. They are what they are, and Kirk doesn't typically promise something he can't deliver. There's a lot of value in that.

What's the point? Take a good hard look at what other people have to say about something before you do it. Don't be fooled by the shape of the bodies- there is a profound difference between car from various builders.

"Ready, aim, fire", beats "ready, fire, aim" every time.
polynesianpoppolynesianpop
Just some food for thought --

At the time I purchased my Speedster I was living in Chino Hills, CA. I bought my car in Ocean Beach (San Diego area) about 105-110 miles away. I drove it home in the POURING RAIN the whole way home (no exaggeration here - it was early spring - March/April) with NO TOP. When I got home 2 hours later there wasn't even half the water (not even a fourth) in my car that was in Tom's coupe in the above pics -- and my car is a home-built CMC!

With that said, in my opinion, Tom's situation certainly seems unacceptable.

I'd like to throw something out here --- what do you think John Steele would expect if he ordered something similar for himself (product quality or post-sale support) from another car builder? I'm sure he would expect the exact same thing Tom expected...
WOLFGANGWOLFGANG'89 CMC FWB, FL Supporting Member
Stan - What are you getting at be "whether sales tax is owed (the state says "yes"- most builders say "no")" I bought CMC kit in '89 I have Cert of Origin and Bill of Sale for it ($8k); have title for VW donor and Bill of Sale for it (from family member) $100. I bought lots of rebuild parts - and paid sales tax on majority of them. When I go to title it (as whatever the state of VA whims - '89 CMC Classic Speedster or '70 VW Custom/Kit - but surely NOT a 2009 vehicle) I expect to pay sales tax on the body kit and the chassis --- but surely not on a finished car (including my labor) or the parts I already paid tax on.

Some states do go to extreme --- like charging sales tax at yard sales! Oh come on.
P paulg
You know the registry has a rating system that 6 months ago seemed like it was the most logical way to rate the vendors. It is clearly not accurate! When JPS can rate a 9.2 or 9.3 and then you read an individul's account of the product and how they were treated the rating system to me now seems totally useless. There are simply too many variables. Where the cars bought new? What are the owners driving habits? etc. The forum seems to offer a more realistic feedback. It's too bad Beck,Vintage and Thunder don't offer a coupe for those who want it. SAS seems like a good outfit but the wait time is simply too brutal.I don't need to say anything further on JPS.I can see why IM doesn't make a coupe. They would charge as much or more then a real one. IM works because top quality real original speedsters and cabs go for over a hundred grand. So spending 60 grand,if you have it,can still make sense.Anyway I hope that Tom can get somthing resolved.
FM Former Member
Paul, I believe the rating system is accurate. If Tom gives them a rating of 1 and others that have had a positive experience give a rating of 8 to 10, that doesn't mean that ALL of John's cars are bad.

Tom's rating will lower the overall score by a small percentage point but that doesn't mean that the overall score should drop to Tom's rating.

What tends to happen on internet bulletin boards is the Lynch Mob mentality. If one respected person complains than a lot of people jump on the band wagon. This will keep going until someone shows up with a rope at the nearest tree.

I've seen this too many times on BB's and it may not be fair to John or to the other satisified customers that own a JPS.

Remember, you're only hearing one side of the story.

In conclusion, I'm not calling Tom a liar, only pointing out that no one has heard John's side of the story.
J Jimbo356
Does JPS advertise their speedsters and coupes as "used VWs" on their website? If not, why would he even have the balls to make such a statement to someone who has bought one? Anyhow, is he saying that he uses used VW parts to complete his tube frame cars? I'm sure that if this were advertised to potential buyers, they would be a little more apprehensive to shell out that kind of money for a handcrafted automobile comprised of used VW parts.
In this particular case, what would the "other side of the story" possible be other than excuses? A quality hand built automobile should be one that the craftsman takes pride in, not one that he avoids. Every effort should have been made ensure that the car was an example of the craftmanship that JPS has to offer. Or perhaps this is a perfect example of the craftsmanship that is offered.
MusbJimMusbJim'14 VS SoCal Supporting Member
It would be a little hard to get John's side of the story, because he; ducks-out, sneaks-out, bails-out, scurries-away, whatever term you want to use for running away will fit here.

I'm not sure how many JPS coupes have been built, but the 4 JPS coupes I personally saw with my own eyes on both Coasts (as noted in my post above) leave little room for any opinion other than sub-standard finish and a 'I've-got-your-money-now-its-your-problem' attitude.

Vince - got that beer for you, did you want those Pork Rinds I saw on the kitchen counter?
Cuzn Vinny 90264Cuzn Vinny 90264
Bob, the pictures you mention are of water accumulated during the Carlisle run and the result of rainfall while driving (I assume)
most of us with a speedster driving in the rain the last 2 years returning from Paso Robles had similar situation, I know I did.
It came from below under the chassis and unless John told his Coupe buyers that their cars would be water tight, he can hardly be blamed for that condition. I had to put fans in my car for 3 days, but I can hardly blame Kirt at Vintage, because I chose to drive my car in the rain...So unless John spacifically told these guys their cars would not take on water, the water thing is really a non issue..
Never met John, But if I wanted a Replica coupe so bad that I was willing to pay more than an original for one, I think I would wait till he made more than just a few, to get the bugs out for sure.
Not to mention the geographic distance between Manufacturer and buyer. I think you guys are nuts to think that everything was going to be honky dory.....
B bobros
Michael, John responded to because, as stated earlier, I was seriously considering a JPS coupe. I specifically as the question about taking in water. I'm not in a position to badmouth JPS. I do not own one of his cars. Since he completed 12 coupes, I sure he has learned from each one he make and has made improvements. I just chosed a different builder.
TomD (hacksaw57)TomD (hacksaw57)
Would be nice if JPS would pass on a little of what he allegedly learned to help an early adopter find and fix the problem. Unfortunately he does not do so. Either he does not know and has not learned anything or he is unwilling to share and does not care about the owner once he has been paid.

John Steele has a story for every issue. He bad mouthed coupe #1 owner to me at Carlisle not knowing the owner was there and had already been talking to me. I know he has done the same to others about me.

As I have said many times, I understood I would have more issues with this car and it would not be perfect by any means. I could live with that. What I did not understand was that I would get ZERO assistance from JPS. Yes he shipped it back to CA for repairs, but then did next to nothing. Trouble is John Steele is no Carey Hines. All he needs is a plaid jacket and he could be Kurt Russell in USED CARS.

To those SOC folks who have offered to help - A BIG THANKS! It looks like I may have to take you up on it.

And for the pep talk at Carlisle . . . thanks Danny!!!!


TomD (hacksaw57)TomD (hacksaw57)
This is what I asked JPS to do:

John Steele
JPS Motorsports
RE: Geen JPS Coupe A
May 16, 2008


John,

The quality of the build of my JPS Coupe A has proven to be FAR less than satisfactory. This is not limited to my car. There is significant evidence in my experience (documented in my records), and in the experience of other early JPS Coupe A owners, that these cars are not of acceptable quality and are not performing as represented or expected.

My problems have been persistent and ongoing. Most remain after nearly one year of trying to get them resolved. Most problems initially reported remain unresolved or only partially resolved as of today, with no reasonable timeframe or plan for resolution in sight. JPS support has likewise been unsatisfactory, slow and inadequate and no change is in sight.

The latest issues include:

Blue smoky exhaust
TomD (hacksaw57)TomD (hacksaw57)
This is what I got:
On May 21, 2008, at 10:59 AM, jpsmoto356@aol.com wrote:

What I will offer at this time is that you ship the car back at your expense.

I will make the repairs under my time table and not at your demand that they be done by a certain time frame.

You may fly out if you wish at your expense and test the car how ever way you think and when you approve the repairs I will pay for return shipping.

John P. Steele

JPS Motorsports Inc.
11323 Vanowen St.
North Hollywood, CA 91605 USA

I do not want to spend more money on this car. When I said this was unacceptable, I was JPS sent the used car message that started this thread.

To all of you saying this is old news, you may well be right and perhaps I could have searched deeper. My Bad.

But I will promise everyone I will not be quiet when I come across someone looking to do business with JPS. I feel it is my duty to prevent someone else from making the same mistake in the future.

Bob you made the right decision not to go with JPS!


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