JPS Coupe- Subi powered @ Park Place, Seattle WA

I wonder if JPS Subie powered cars have any cooling problems, with the radiator mounted horizontally in the front.  I would think it would be very susceptible to damage from rocks, etc.

Anyone on this forum have a Subie powered JPS with some mileage under its belt?

Makes you wonder when a used car show up with only 400 miles.  I like the color combo.  AC too and, wow, a glove box! On my 914 the AC condenser was flat in front area but it had a puller fan and a small scope to suck air thru it.  

Ron O posted:

I wonder if JPS Subie powered cars have any cooling problems, with the radiator mounted horizontally in the front.  I would think it would be very susceptible to damage from rocks, etc.

Anyone on this forum have a Subie powered JPS with some mileage under its belt?

Horizontal rads work ok, Ron. Mine is almost horizontal, just up about 2 1/2" inches in front which allows for a somewhat vaned  scoop that protects it from road debris. I also have a puller fan mounted on top. Rad area is about 19" x 11 or 13" , single row. Mid 90's Saab 9000 if you need to see one.

"Makes you wonder when a used car show up with only 400 miles."

Too many people buy the dream and the fantasy, but the reality isn't what they can deal with.   A replica Porsche doesn't have ABS, power steering, computer controlled engine management, a nice quiet ride, climate control, and whatever else they are so used to these days.

Bob, that is so dead on... there is a chasm between the dream and reality at times. 

David, are you planning on adding anything else to help cool the engine like a more substantial air scoop now that your going with a 2.5L engine?  Ray

Caretech-IM posted:

Bob, that is so dead on... there is a chasm between the dream and reality at times. 

David, are you planning on adding anything else to help cool the engine like a more substantial air scoop now that your going with a 2.5L engine?  Ray

I have too much cooling already, Ray. 

In general, the way I read it, equal power will produce equal heat. So, if I'm travelling down the road at 60 mph with the old engine it would take x amount of power to do so and create a certain amount of heat that will need to get cooled.  If I put in a more powerful motor, it will take the same power to go down the road at 60 mph.

More power will just get me to the desired speed sooner if I want to, I'm thinking. I don't race, don't burn rubber....mainly cruising so I think I'll be ok.

I agree that there is a substantial portion of new replica buyers that sell within the first year.  They are obviously unsatisfied with what they bought.  I'm not sure their dissatisfaction is technology driven, however.  VS built my first Speedster in 98? or thereabouts, and there was a fairly large percentage of quick resales, even in those days.  While that's not exactly ancient history, the electronic gizmos and mod con's in new cars weren't as plentiful at that time.

Every potential buyer should spend as much time as possible actually driving a sample of the car they are considering.  Sounds easy, but it can be a difficult plan to execute, unless a GOOD friend or family member owns a replica.  The major builders and resellers are good sources for a trial ride.

I know that some buyers pull the trigger before they have even sit in a Speedster replica, let alone drive one.  While this doesn't guarantee they won't be satisfied, it certainly increases the chances.

Many of us are older guys who have great memories of a time in our lives when a certain car or cars bring back those feelings of youth.  Of course, in those days, our bodies were ready for anything.  The sad reality is that LOTS of my car buddies can't enjoy their cars any longer.  Too hard to get in and out of, can't make long trips, need to stay near home, and on and on.  Lots of looking, a little polishing, but not much driving.

While we got 'em and we're able, let's drive 'em.  If a friend or acquaintance is curious about our little cars, give them a ride.  The more folks who enjoy our hobby, the more cars they make, more support, parts availability, shops that will work on them, etc.  

It baffles me that many here are bound and determined to create something so opposed to the ORIGINAL idea of the Speedster! Hey, to each their own and God Speed, but the idea of a Speedster came from the idea of MINIMALISM. The Speedster was NOT Ferry Porsche's idea of a REAL Porsche, he hated it! To Ferry a REAL Porsche was comfort and style in motoring ! The Speedster was meant to be a compromise car. The Speedster was to be CHEAP ($2,900 where as a 356 Coupe was $4,200 and a PROPER Convertible MORE) and it was designed to please WEST Coast owners who could deal with a car with the minimum of comfort and weather protection for the ability to quickly convert their cars for Club Racing, then drive it to work on Monday knowing that in Southern California it's more likely to be sunny and warm then cold and rainy. The Original Speedster concept was only tolerated for 5 years then the Convertible D replaced it and Purest moaned. Ferry was pleased! Why after over a Half Century a car that cost $3,000 is now worth OVER  a 1/4 of a Million for a "driver" and really "nice ones" break the 1/2 Million mark? Not because it had a padded top, roll up windows, Full Leather seats, radio, or cup holders, no because it speaks to those who relish the PURITY of a Sports Car in it's finest form! Imagine a Caddy stripped to the bare metal with NO padding and no comfort, with equipment just enough to make it road worthy and you get the idea of how crazy it is to make a Speedster into what a Caddy is! My Speedster Replica has NOTHING but what a REAL Speedster had and LESS! Why would I want to make it like my 2013 Boxster S with all the "Bells & Whistles"? Like I said "to each their own" but why? Seems to me the purpose of buying something that LOOKS Like a Speedster is because you had one, wanted one, or liked them. If your spending $50,000 to build a "PERFECT" Suby Speedster with air-conditioning, Awesome Sound system and Rad accessories maybe your better off buying a MODERN Sports Car! But that's just MY 2 Cents. 

Caretech-IM posted:

... there is a chasm between the dream and reality at times... 

I think, more often, there is a wife between the dream and reality.

Depends on WHICH Mistress you choose? My Speedster NEVER has a "Headache!" LoL

It's all about what we each enjoy... 

I was at ParkPlace getting an estimate on my recently restored '62 356B Coupe. Time to offload her during this crazy $$$$ buble...  And they seem to always get top dollar...

So I took the Subi powered car out for a long test drive... It was my first Subi powered experience.... Solid car.  I really enjoyed it.  Whoever had it built did ask for some nice components be installed.   Solid driver, plenty of power, nice transmission, nice balance, no rattles, and it pulled/ stopped straight.   

Though I'm an aircooled nut, I am now very intrigued by the Subi powered car.   There are things I would have done differently.... But it's a nice car.  

Gettin back in Sofia to drive her home in the 38F sunny weather was like night and day... Love the original, but the Subi power was sure fun to drive around town, and had great pick up and go!  Made me want to go fast.

... Feel like I cheated on sofia (356B) and Irene (my VS).  How many mistresses can one man really have????

I may be one of the few on this forum who does not own one, but I have worked on several. What I see is we all have a idea what the car should drive like. I think what pushes away some new owners in to selling off their dream or mistress is the initial dream expectations are not met and that is partially due to the salesman exploiting that dream along with the quality of the parts used.  I have enjoyed listening to customers stories and seeing that sparkle when they talk about how they enjoy the car after getting the bugs out. That's what is neat about these cars. Each one can be tweaked to each owners own personality. It's a shame they don't initially get delivered that way. Don't take this as if all manufactures or parts suppliers fall under my thoughts, there are some companies that do go the extra mile in customer service, just wish they all did.

This Coupe has been around for awhile if I recall. Thought it was a repost of an older thread at first.

After my ex-wife got rid of me, I went out and bought a black speedster...A couple of weeks later I came across this guy who was forced to sell his speedster due to divorce, so I took it of his hands and bought the red one! I am always looking at the half full glass I've had all my life.

She's now a two time divorcee and I married my high school sweetheart. She used to help push start my 61 vw bus many a time back in the day and loves the speedsters.

6 years later and the old girlfriend/new wife and I have not had one argument of fight of any sort. Ain't life grand!

Chremi(Bill):  way to go! sounds like it took a LOT of effort, but it sounds like you finally got it right.  So glad for you.

As to managing expectations once you have a Speedster, we've been over all of that time and again. It's neither simple nor logical.  And all tied up w/ why we call it The Madness.

Having owned a subie powered JPS the reason I sold it was it was just not a car worth the money.   Over expectations certainly  but it wasn't the lack of comforts.  A car costing over $40,000 has to justify itself.    I just didn't trust it or feel it worth the money.  A prejudiced opinion no doubt. 

Many nice thoughts on why we have Speedsters and why many are sold with so few miles.  Jim made mention of age.  I've owned a few older cars that can be described as fairly "option-less" and I really enjoyed them.  One that comes to mind was a '62 Beetle that, same as Bill, an old girlfriend used to help me push (along with her parents sometimes) to get started.  Although I wouldn't appreciate having to do that now I have very fond memories of that car and that time of my life.  That being said I went into a Speedster knowing that it was a bare-bones vehicle and that, like all older cars, would take some sorting and compromising and driving to develop a certain level of 'trust' before I would take it on long drives.  If I had only dreams to run on and bought one of these cars then it would difficult to predict what the eventual outcome would be. 

It still is a bit confusing how so many cars have so little miles on them though.  Not only that but some of them are quite expensive.  If they were $10 - 15,000 then maybe take a chance on those dreams but at $40 -50,000........ wow!

When we got married (42 years ago last week), Kathy's father had a Fiat 124 Spyder that was his "baby" (he lived 1 mile from work, never pushed it over 2,000 rpm and it constantly had fouled plugs).  Her whole family knew not to even lean on any part of that car for fear of denting it.

Before/after we were married, I had a 1946 Ford, Business Coupe Hot Rod that the flathead engine occasionally would get vapor lock and need a push - usually from Kathy.  Just before the first time that she pushed it, she had this terrified look and said, "where is it safe to push on it?"

"Absolutely anywhere", I replied - "This thing's built like a tank".

I am not sure any of this madness is really justifiable but it can be fun, hurt your pocket book lots at times but great fun.

We do have all sorts of options or ways to make it more or less of a pocket book drain, and yes you do choose what is justifiable to you and you get to choose what level of  madness you can endure. Under the sky with open sun or under the stars by the ocean view, you just gotta Love it, Ray 

This hobby probably will probably never make economic sense but it certainly makes psychological sense.  It has provided me with a whole host of friends, both local and through this site.  It has given me events to look forward to (Carlisle, Cars and Coffee, etc.), new interests (e.g., track days with friends), and many other things.  The many pleasures of "The Madness" more than offset the occasional frustrations.

Ninety-nine per cent of people have enough common sense to get rid of their Speedsters as soon as they realize what kind of cars they are.

The remaining lunatic fringe are probably reading this right now.

Ron O posted:

I wonder if JPS Subie powered cars have any cooling problems, with the radiator mounted horizontally in the front.  I would think it would be very susceptible to damage from rocks, etc.

Anyone on this forum have a Subie powered JPS with some mileage under its belt?

I have a few thousand miles on mine-no cooling issues so far, except for the gauge which has a mind of its own.

Hi Jerry,

I have about 8,000 miles on my Subi turbo, and I've had lots of cooling and other mechanical problems.  The rad is now in its third placement, in the trunk space where the engine would go in a normal rear-engine application, with a 17" x 27" double pass crossflow, aluminum rad, fully shrouded with 2 12" high flow puller fans, each rated at 1600 cfm. 

Bottom line: the bigger the HP, the more difficulty in keeping it cool.  I'm pretty close to an efficiency that I've been looking for, but it's been a long and expensive process.  Of course, it's more involved than just the rad.  Fans, shrouds, ducting, electric water pumps, water-air intercooler, NACA ducts, a/c condenser, and the list goes on and on.  If you want big HP, there doesn't seem to be any way around it.  Proper ducting and shrouds are key, but their necessity was ignored by the builder, to my peril.

It's hard to find shops who have experience with Subi conversions, and hard to get shop time when you do find someone.  There's not one aspect of the fix that's been easy.  Most shops want nothing to do with any type of replica, especially one with a Subi turbo.

For many reading this, I'm preaching to the choir.  It's not enough to pay someone, you may also have to kiss the ring, declare loyalty, sign an MOU, pledge your assets, etc.  That seems to be the price we pay for being different.  Not all of these guys are prima donnas, but they do exist.  To give these guys some credit, it's their experience that has taught them the tricks of the trade regarding remote rads, what kind of cooling is needed, how best to achieve the goal of running cool when real estate is lacking to place a rad in the ideal, front bumper location.  That hard-earned knowledge is not given away, or even shared much on public forums.

Hopefully, my car will be done in April, well before blastoff time for Carlisle.  When it's "good enough" for a cross-country trip, I'll post the info and some pics on what I received when I bought the car, and how it is now.

I'm fairly confident that, when I'm done, it will be dead reliable in all weather and road conditions, and very, very quick.  Braking has always been adequate, and I've upgraded the suspension.  I'm guessing final engine HP will dyno in the low 300's, but the engine is currently detuned until cooling is sorted out.  In some ways, it's been a positive experience, since I've learned WAY more than I imagined about water cooling, system design, and the engineering and trade-offs involved.  If you keep the HP under 200 with naturally-aspirated application, cooling is much easier.  If I was less bull-headed, that's what I would have done.

Intermeccanica 356D Subaru Turbo GT.  Its whats for breakfast.  

Jim:  You're finding out what my son and his racing friends had to figure out when they started racing Subarus and Eclipses over a decade ago;  Cooling requirements can be radically different for different purposes.  Chris and his friend both had Mitsu Eclipses, but their racing preferences were polar opposites:  Chris did drag strip racing, and his buddy did road courses.  Chris was running 680hp to the AWD wheels, his buddy running about 1050hp to his AWD wheels.  Chris got away with pretty much stock cooling because his peak power output was for less than 11 seconds (it was also his daily driver).  His buddy had a HIGHLY modified cooling system for both the engine and intercoolers because his peak power output was constant for hours once the race began.  He spent a (large) fortune just on the cooling systems, after spending another large fortune on the go-fast parts for the engine.

I visited the race shops of TRG Motorsports in NC a while back, and they had a couple of engineers there just to design cooling systems for their cars (NASCAR and Rolex).  It is not a trivial pursuit.   Good luck with yours - sounds like you're getting close.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Back to the guy with the Fiat 124 that he never took above 2000 rpm. That is outrageous abuse! If he's still around, I want his number, so I can give him a piece of my mind.

If he's dead, tell me where he's buried so I can dig up his bones and shoot them.

Yeesh.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Ninety-nine per cent of people have enough common sense to get rid of their Speedsters as soon as they realize what kind of cars they are.

The remaining lunatic fringe are probably reading this right now.

And then there's the REALLY crazy 0.01% that buy their 356 replica TWICE.

I think I have exceeded the twice the price at this point. What is really scary for those of you that have owned a Boat (break out another thousand), it so far is more expense than my boat, not counting depreciation. 

Ron,

You bought the same one twice. I've had three different ones, from three different builders. It's a special kind of illness to keep going back to the well with more and more money.

To the point: most replica speedster buyers are not buying cars, they are buying dreams-- dreams of youth and freedom and a kind of "cool" they envied in their youth. The reality of a leaky, stinky, unreliable, ill-handling, and ridiculously expensive dune-buggy with a glorified lawn-mower engine, assembled with all the care one would expect from a two-toothed "handi-man" sends them "reluctantly" to ebay.  The really persistent guys determine that it must be the engine that's the root-cause of their dissatisfaction, and spend an additional $10-20K on a Subi-special for car #2.

The inconvenient truth is this: if you aren't a mechanical guy, you're going to become one in short order-- Subaru or no. These are "car-guy" cars. If you want to get in and drive-- just save yourself a lot of angst and buy a new Miata or Boxter. They're both pretty cool too.

Stan's right about chasing a dream.  Old cars are like memories of old girlfriends.  Perfect until you get a good look.  I still love the look, but haven't stopped reengineering the underpinnings since I got it.  

I've been in automotive engineering in Detroit for 32 years now.  I consider myself a car guy even if I don't like turning wrenches.  Fortunately for me I have an awesome builder 3.5 hours away from me and local support from Buckwheat.

Without changing the appearance, I've improved the power, the shifting, the braking, the exhaust, the park brake operation the tail lights, the headlights, the heating, the horn, added seat heaters, the interior door handles, the battery, and added fire suppression.

With a slight change to appearance I've added a CHMSL, turn signal mirrors, improved the seat belts, & improved side curtains.

I'm no mechanic, but I've personally fixed the speedo cable, installed an air horn, upgraded the battery, replaced the LR brake caliper, the RF wheel bearing, and replaced the horn relay.

Finally, I'm making the Suby plunge for more power, reliability, and better heat.

It's still the only car I want, but now I've engineered out a large portion of the 1950's tech like the cable activated clutch & the carbs that I can do without.

Is it a modern car? No, but it's a damn site better & still way cooler than anything else out there.

If I had it my way, I'd never work on it again.

I don't know if I'm a "Car guy" or just nuts, but I kind of resent being lumped into the group of Suby buyers.

Tom-

You're a car guy.

FWIW, being "lumped in" with the Suby buyers is no mark of shame. I think they may be the only sane ones here. All I'm trying to say is that modern engine or not, these cars take some serious "realignment" in thinking. They're never going to be a Boxster, no matter how much is done to them. They're hand-built specials, not mass-produced cars.

No small amount of buyers can't adjust to that and sell in 300 miles. A smaller subset believes that if they could only spec a more modern engine, the "issues" would go away. They won't. To one extent or another, they are baked in the cake.

Forewarned is forearmed.

I am right there with Tom, I love cars I just not a mechanic. My speedster sold Friday and my new suby powered Beck should be done in April/May. There are not many days  that go by without looking what else I can add to the build. When is winter over??

Ed of Nova fame:  Sorry, Kathys' Dad is long dead.  He was the kind of guy who not only wouldn't know what end of a screw driver to pick up, he probably wouldn't recognize one in a picture.

He had that Fiat before we got married and I once asked him if I could take her for a ride in it and, son-of-a-gun, he agreed.  They lived in Hartford, CT, at the time, so we got out on old Route 2 and headed for the coast.   Very slowly, at first, with this HUGE cloud of brownish smoke coming out of the back, the engine shuddering and puking to beat the band.

I held it in second gear until the RPMs finally got over 3,500 (it probably took two or three minutes), then pulled it into 3'rd and held it, again, until it finally shuddered and puked its way up to 4,000 - that probably took five minutes.  Kathy kept giving me these very worried looks (especially when she looked back and saw that huge cloud of brown smoke) but I kept saying "It'll be fine!" and we kept sputtering along.

After getting halfway to the coast (sputtering and puking most of the way), it finally settled out and began to run more smoothly.  By the time we turned back and got to Hartford again, it had blown all of the crud out and was running great.  I actually enjoyed the little car after that.

We didn't say anything about the trip, other than it was fun  and I went home.  The next time I went to visit, her father asked what I had done to his car - it ran so much better after I brought it back from our ride!   After that, he let me borrow it whenever I asked.....

He held onto it for 4 or 5 years, only driving back and forth to work once in a while to his job at Pratt and Whitney Aircraft (he was a tech writer there).  When he sold it, I think it had around 4,000 miles on it, 3/4's of which I put on it.

I'd probably just stuff a Suby in it....

OK, Ed, you are just getting too predictable, maybe even a little overbearing.

But as to pushing your car, if I can go back to that one, my old '56 Coupe (1600N) would sometimes come up w/ a dead battery, or when I had it in Pittsburgh, up against weather that was a fright too cold.  So, it got pushed a lot.  And I could do it myself on a flat stretch.  I always finagled my parking spot, if I could, with the nose pointed down hill.  It's just what you did.  One had to be pretty agile to jump in after you had given it your all, then get a gear and pop the clutch.  But it really did not take too much to get it going.  One time in Denver, on a very flat stretch, I had to run at it a few times, and the altitude there about killed me.  But I got it going.  Another time, upon hopping in, my knee hit the key (ignition switch was on the left) and pulled it out of the switch just a bit, then bent that sucker over 90 deg. Oh shyt.  Well, the key was brass, and so I bent it back, and stuck into the switch, and it worked.  Very sloppy switch, quite well worn . . .  Anybody wants to see this key, just ask me next time you see me.  Also, FWIW, I never asked any of my right-seaters to help push the car -- never needed to.

Ron O posted:

..And then there's the REALLY crazy 0.01% that buy their 356 replica TWICE...

I didn't buy mine twice, but I feel I've gone from owning it to leasing.

Sacto Mitch posted:

Ron O posted:

..And then there's the REALLY crazy 0.01% that buy their 356 replica TWICE...

 

I didn't buy mine twice, but I feel I've gone from owning it to leasing.

 

What are we going to do? Leave a bunch of money to the kids? LOL