JPS MOTORSPORTS

I gave you a lot of chances to make that car right, and remained amicable throughout the entire process. You put one band-aid on it after another, much to my frustration. I should have demanded satisfaction long ago. On initial inspection, the car looks great, but don

You were not above lying to me on a number of occasions. At times, you couldn't keep your story straight from one day to the next, or even from morning to evening. One of the better examples: You had all the money for the car. Cash. The car was complete, minus engine. I had to wait six weeks for it to arrive. You kept telling me

WOW !

So whats the deal did you get your money back? Do you still have the car? Tell the story, but please don't just leave us hanging......what is your current status? Reading this reminds me of an episode of MASH where the last page of a book was missing and it drove everyone crazy not to know the end of the sory.

What is the refrence to a 90 dollar appraisal?

Have not recieved the money from the consignment dealer at this time, although I've been told the car is sold.

I paid $90 for a appraisal to satisfy my credit union. The guy cut and pasted from John's website, took a couple of 35mm pix, packaged it up and I got a bill for 90 bucks.

I read the appraisal. The paint was not flawless, nor the interior.

Dale sorry to hear about the falling out with JPS. They need to remember to be a quality retailer and manufacture. On the other hand, I need to share an experience I had just the other day. I made a call to VS and found out that Kirk Duncan has come down with the flu and he was not in the shop. My car had a bad exhaust leak and I wanted to have it looked at. Well it only took one call and I was told to bring the car right in. No appointment needed in addition the work was done at no charge. Moreover, the car is no longer under warrantee. Vintage Speedster, a stand up company who takes care of any customer new or old !!
PS. Kirk is feeling better and is back at work.
Thank you Kirk.
DS.

David, That's been my experience with Kirk. I think most JPS customers have had a positive experience with John too. I hate seeing this, for the customer, and for John.

All: Without questioning or doubting the customer's complaints at all.... I think John deserves a chance to explain... if that is his desire. I hope that the matter is resolved and that John gains back the credibility that he has worked hard to achieve. Sometimes it seems in many jobs and industries, One Aw Shit wipes out a thousand atta-boys. Here's to all parties in this issue going home feeling that all is resolved and that we can move forward.

JMHO
Jim
VS owner, but an admirer of JPS cars and of John Steele for being an active participator on this forum. He has shared some great information over the past 2 years. Hope you can take care of this John.

It doesn't happen very often, but occasionally someone will post a complaint about a vendor or supplier on this forum and their comments will escalate into a personal attack. While internet forums like this make it easy to share opinions, when those opinions are meant to steer the rest of us away from a specific business, I look for collaboration.
In the case of Dale Farmer versus JPS Motorsports (see "JPS Motorsports Pt II" below) I think Dale is out there pretty much by himself. I admit to being a satisfied JPS customer. I know quite a few satisfied JPS customers. While nobody's replicas are without quirks fresh out of the garage, I've never known John Steele not to immediately address any customer's legitimate gripes.
It's Dale's right to be pissed off at John Steele. I just don't think it's right or fair to personally attack him on this forum without substantiation.
I'm certain you won't see John Steele "reply" to Dale's posts. That's why I wanted to post this in support of JPS. It's been my experience that he stands behind every car he makes.

Jim,

Exactly, Do we know how Dale treated the car? Followed common sense in his handling of the car? After all these replicars we drive have certain limitations. They may look like race cars but aren't built to handle a really heavy foot or a clumsy clutch. I am not saying this happened but my personal experience with John is good. He has responded to a few very minor problems quickly and with good advice.
Some people are not good listeners and think they have all the answers.
I think it is rather juvenile for someone to attack someone else in a public forum like this. I'm sure there is an answer to all this but I'm sure John won't use this forum to explain what really happened.
That probably will become a story that will be retold for Speedster generations to come.

My 2 cents, Bruce

Dale, I understand your frustration and I hope that you get your quality speedster (from someone else) in the near future.
Keep us informed on what is happening.
Ron

If the problems could not be settled in private this IS the place to take it. If you don't get satisfaction privately what else it there to do? Why not tell other forum members? If I had trouble with a VW/speedster related company, and I could not get it resolved to my satisfaction, then why not tell the members of this forum about my unhappy transaction? Why not warn them about dealing with this company? I'm not siding with either parties, but they both have a right, on this forum, to express their opinion.
Ron

Just an editorial note.
I recombined several threads that all had to do with this same topic. This is why a few topics are missing, they are all combined here. In the future please stick replies under the same topic, it's a pain to combine them.
thanks
-=theron

This letter refers to my Speedster Custom built by JPS and delivered March 2003.

Anything in quotes was told to me first hand by John Steele, or in an e-mail from him.

I held onto a lot of hope for the 3This letter refers to my Speedster Custom built by JPS and delivered March 2003.

Anything in quotes was told to me first hand by John Steele, or in an e-mail from him.

I held onto a lot of hope for the 3000 mile check/tune up. The car had and may still have numerous problems. Nearly every major component (engine, trans) had failed and was "rebuilt" before the car had 1500 miles on it. I would not have been surprised if the brakes failed. When I got to your shop, after you called and said the car was ready, the oil continued to leak, and the engine would not idle. Left alone, it would rpm slower and slower until it died. On information I got from you, I was expecting you to "go through the whole car", fix and/or adjust anything that might be wrong, and take it back "to the engine builder to dial in the carbs". I got far less. Right up to the point where the linkage failed on July 3rd just as I was about to leave town, I had hoped to drive that car for years to come. When it was on the towtruck, I took a good, eye-level look at it. Whoever washed and waxed it did a very poor job. I would rather it came back dirty than half done like that. It made me think you just didn't give a damn.

You said you would pick the car up from my driveway "first thing". At 3 PM, it was still there. I called the shop and was told "I forgot". I got a call about 3-4 hours after you picked it up, telling me the car was ready. This was after I had expressed, in no uncertain terms, my dissatisfaction with the car and you had agreed to "go through the whole car, personally". I doubt very much you went through the whole car. I doubt you even road tested it.

I got an e-mail from you stating the car was

I

It's clear that Dale Farmer is an extremely dissatisfied customer. But, for me, his credibilitiy goes out the side-curtain when the post turns personal and he calls John Steele a liar. Let's be honest here...the primary purpose of Dale's rant is to hurt John Steele's business. How is someone supposed to respond to that kind of attack? Refute it? Deny it?
I thought the matter between Dale Farmer and John Steele was resolved several weeks ago and that Dale was going to get most of his money back once his car sold on consignment. (By the way, Dale, the price on the Specialty website is an "asking price." That's why it's more than you paid originally for the car.)
I just hate to see this forum become a place where we vent our anger by personally attacking one another. A straightforward, unemotional statement of the facts would have served Dale Farmer - and the rest of us - much better than his emotional, rambling, name-calling attempt to affect John Steele's business.

There's always two sides to a story. That said, I seemed to side with Ron in that Dale does have the right to voice his opinions on a public forum such as this. It's a public forum. Defending JPS isn't necessary as we all know how satisfied 90% of JPS owners are.

Beyond that, Stan makes a number of good points regarding the price/value relationships between the different manufacturers, "you do get what you pay for".

Dale, I hope everything works out for you. Hopefully he and JPS can come to a peaceful ending.

ps - Kirk is amazing, he is always willing to assist in anyway he can. I bought a '01 VS about 3 months ago. I called him with questions before buying the car. He took time on the phone to answer my questions and didn't try to sell me a new VS. I couldn't afford a new one anyway; but the point is Kirk had nothing to gain from me and was still open on assisting.

My 2 cents

Dave

I didn't demand a refund, I was offered one. I'm standing by my statements. If they seem like a personal attack, so be it. The product delivered was not the product advertised.

That car has been keeping me awake at night since January. It's now November. First it was anticipation, now regret and dismay.

Maybe my post was rambling and emotional John. I admit to being emotional on this subject. Rambling, maybe. I had a lot to say.

You know that car. It was parked next to yours at Knotts. So - the questions would be - how many times did you see it in the JPS garage with the engine out, the trans out, a puddle of oil underneath it?

Like I said, I wanted to drive that car for years to come. But, enough turned out to be enough, in my case.

So Dale, are you going to consider one of the other vendors?

With hesitation, I can add to the JPS discussion ...
I have had two JPS cars a speedster and a HumVee at the votech shop I worked at until recently.
We did a lot of work on a turn key Humvee we received as well as the "C" speedster with a fabricated hard top . I will respond direct email to detail requests .
Since I did not see a number of complaints regarding JPS (even through we had two purchased cars in 3 months that did ned work to correct problems) I chose not to post at that time as it seemed to be two "rare" situations .

Dale didn't the motor have a 6000 mile warranty on it as it states on the JPS website. The motor is obviously supplied by a second party. If the motor failed then it should of been replaced under the warranty. I have heard that some companies that quickly manufactured motors may have some unreliable motors. Your obvious expectations are of what would be for a factory built GM, Ford ,etc. This is a kitcar. It is not perfect. If you wanted perfection you should of built the car ground up. I bought a used CMC flareside in a semi rough condition. I am making a lot of changes because I wasn't satisfied with original design. My motor which was a 1600 TI burned up with only 3000 miles on it. Unfortunately I didn't have a warranty. So I did some homework I decided to replace it with a 2270 Raby T4 and trans. I am glad your are getting your money back. I would say that was very noble of JPS. I guess your slamming on this forum shows how angry your were and are. Then again there is the saying the customer is always right even if they are wrong. You may want to stay away from the kitcars and the replicas. Buy a factory classic car. I really can't say who is the bad guy here. The big qusetion here is was it poor craftsmanship or just a customer that will never be satisfied. Thats my two cents.

Joe S

Dale, don't let your bad experience sour you on owning a Porsche replica.

Unfortunate to have such a series of bad experiences with a vendor that many consider (or used to consider) to be "one of the best". However, I think this post should serve as a very clear caveat to many lurkers and on-the-fence buyers.

Put your expectations in WRITING (fit, finish, mechanical warranty for engine/transaxle unit replacement rather than "repairs"), and have the vendor sign off on it. Include penalty clauses for auto rental or inconvenience, towing, etc. A vendor that has good quality control in place will not hesitate to enter into such an agreement.

I have not followed my own sage advice with IM as Henry is even pickier than I am, and I trust him implicitly. And of course Carquip built the transaxle and Pat Downs built my engine, so my chances of "sh#t happening" are pretty remote.

My 2 cents
I learned about this web site through VS when I was doing my research
into purchasing a replica speedster. I viewed the forum for over a
month, trying to decide what was best for me and my wallet....
The things I learned from this site has helped immensely...
Thanks to all of you for that......
I believe Dale has every right to be Pissed and to voice that
frustration on this site..Thats part of what we are about...
I'm sure all the manufactures have produced cars they would like
to forget about. Whether this is an isolated case with JPS or not,
We as owners should share the bad along with the good....
Dale, I feel your pain.....and remember.. all you read about on this
site are peoples opinions, and you know what they say about opinions.
their like, well you know......
Theron, I think we need a separate section for disgruntled owners,
so those who get offended by hearing things they don't like about
their perticular manufacturer don't have to read about it....

Hey,

I'd sure like to hear the honest circumstances on how he blew the engine the first day he had the car, also the tranny! John distinctly told me to hold it under something like 4000 rpm for some time. There is a reason for that caution with a new motor. Can't go out and do the street grand Prix's with a new engine, got to break them in with a gentle throttle!

Bruce

I agree: Dale has the right to have his say in this forum. In the long-run the manufacturers will make a better product knowing of the reach and power of the world wide web.

Not to second-guess the content of Dale's posts or the frustration behind them, I do ponder airing all the dirty laundry unless it is for revenge. Other owners who have had issues arise with their new cars didn't push the NUKE botton with a list of he said/I said play-by-plays. They posted during the fact and then may add post scripts saying the problem has been resolved, or not, they didn't fire the nukes in their first mention of their problems. It is a thin line between making a case and vindictiveness, but again, I am not second-guessing Dale or his motives, am just making a general statement.

I have noticed the engine builders who have been slammed, some of the very best have been, and the other Speedsters manufacturers (ditto) they don't add their side to the story or even defend themselves. I am assuming they have learned that to do so would only extend the debate so instead they keep quite and take the lumps.

I consider John Steele a friend and in my dealings with him he has been great.

Bruce - the engine failed at 500 miles, not the first day. I followed JPS instructions to the letter re: break in.

The engine autopsy revealed the builder failed to grease one or more of the connecting rod bearings.

On the first day, the first 5 miles in fact, the car did get stuck in 2nd gear and I limped back to the shop.

Am I vindictive? That goes along with anger/disappointment. JPS had multiple chances to make that car right.

Bottom line, for me? The truth shouldn't hurt.

In JPS's defense this is off their website in the engine section.

Factory new Volkswagen engine. Single 34 PICT carb, new Bosch alternator, 36HP Doghouse fan shroud in black or chrome, modified exhaust two-tip as original.
Rated at 65 HP. Twelve month/12,000 mile warranty.
The 1600 is a very reliable engine. Easy starting, low maintenance with tried-and-true longtime reliability.

Factory new Volkswagen case, new crankshaft, reconditioned VW rods, new Mahle pistons and barrels, new heads, 110 cam, lightened flywheel, full-flow oil system, external oil filter, 36HP Doghouse, dual Baby Weber carbs, modified dual exhaust.
Rated at about 95 HP. Six month/6000 mile warranty.
The 1776 is a quick, responsive and fast-revving engine. It has good highway manners - with great throttle response. The dual carbs are low maintenance and the oil filter gives it better engine life.


Factory new VW case, new stroker crankshaft, counter-weighted and balanced. Reconditioned VW rods, new Mahle pistons and barrels, new heads, 110 cam, lightened flywheel, full-flow oil system, external oil filter, 36HP Doghouse, dual 40 Weber carbs, modified single-tuck exhaust.
Rated at about 120 HP. Six month/6000 mile warranty.
The 2110 is the best of the performance Type I engines with great throttle response, torque, and driveability. The big Webers take more effort to maintain, but the performance and sound are worth the time. For either canyon carving or highway cruising the 2110 gets good marks.

Type IV VW case, reconditioned with machined and balanced crank, reconditioned VW rods, new 2.0 Mahle pistons and barrels, new stainless steel valves and hardened valvle guides, new hydraulic cam and lifters, new external oil cooler, new upright cooling shroud, new 40 Weber carbs and intake manifolds, new Bosch alternator and 210mm clutch and pressure plate.
Rated at 120+ HP. Six month/6000 mile warranty.
The 2.0 Type IV is the best of all worlds...low maintenance, easy starting, great throttle response and outstanding performance. With more torque than any of the other combinations - and quiet hydraulic valves, it makes cruising or carving so easy. For the short hops or the long trips - this engine delivers everything. Definitely worth the expense, if your budget allows.

With only 500 mile on the motor you would think the warranty would cover the motor . Find out if it is a GEX motor. I have seen issues in other forums regarding their motors. Then again you can get a lemon of a motor in a factory car.
How much of a chance did you give JPS to right the problem?

The reason I come to this forum every day is because I like the way individuals can voice their own opinions and yes, even criticisms. Did Dale go on a bit of a rant...yes, I think he did, but I also understand why he did. He's upset and unhappy and he wants to vent. What better place than a replica speedster forum. Shame on you who say that he shouldn't say his piece here, among fellow members. It's unfortunate that he's criticizing a fellow member, but just because it is a fellow member, we shouldn't tell him he's wrong to post his complaints. I'm not judging who's right or wrong. As in most cases, both parties are probably both right and wrong. I hope both parties have learned something (constructive) from this.
Ron

Who is going to buy anything new and not expect it to be perfect? Are any of you saying that if your new speedster got stuck in second gear on the way home, you would just say "Oh well, I knew stuff like this happens to speedsters"? I doubt it!

The expectations of perfection may not be realistic, but that is our expectation, and in most cases, it works out that it is pretty much perfect. I think that had any one of us had Dale's experience, we would be as pissed-off as he is.

None of this means that John builds bad cars. It means he built one lemon, and that just happens sometimes. The problem for Dale is he got the lemon, and I think it is understandable that he is pissed off about it.

GEX motors...This goes back 4 years ago... a friend of mine from the NJ Replicar Club purchased a longblock 1776cc T -1 from GEX and he added the final intake exhaust and necessary tin work etc. ...it hatched it's chick at 300 miles.....We tore it down and found that in it's former life, it had thrown a rod as there was quite a show within the block aka case that looked like a jack hammer had done a tap dance. No question that GEX went ahead and used it as a rebuldable core .
Did I mention that three pistons were of a certain Brazilian brand and the forth was German ? (Well it had one good part!)
Cause of the engine failure was a poor rebuilt head with what appeared as very used guides from a past life and gravitational(sp) forces took along a valve.

Was I asleep or did all of these things happen and no mention of it until the "car has been sold".......makes me wonder who bought the car and will they show up in a week or two asking questions about some on going problems. It sure would be nice to have S/N listed with the registry?

Steven alludes to the point I made a bit ago concerning the usefulness of the owner's survey. If I recall correctly, Mr. Farmer's original owners survey was "ALL 10s! THIS CAR IS GREAT!!!". It wasn't until he had gotten out of what he perceived to be a bad situation, that he made his revisions to the survey- now the car is " a piece of crap from day one". Which story should I believe?

The point is this- I'm struggling with when a person has the right to make inflammatory statements. I'm old fashioned- I think the right to be heard has to be earned. If the car was a problem from day 1, why didn't we hear about it until now? Did we get a honest feel for the situation when there was something to lose? Are we getting honesty now? If the situation is resolved, what is the point of this, other than the intent to harm?

Just because we are in cyber-space, and not mano-a-mano, doesn't mean we just say whatever comes into our mind, without consideration of what we are doing to someone else. Slinging mud in a public forum should be the LAST resort when no other resolution is possible (if it is to be a resort at all).

Stan is right. The intent of Dale's original post(s) is clear - he's simply trying to hurt JPS Motorsports's business.
Those of you who defend his right to criticise on this forum might think differently if he were leveling unsubstantiated charges at you.

I have read part of this thread all the way through.But in spite of this effort,I still can't determine which way the group is headed. In the final analysis, will the concensus be to praise the messenger, shoot him, or just rough him up a little bit? As a point of reference, Socrates was a guy that went around pointing out errors in the way things were done...and they fed him hemlock!

I do remember Dale making some earlier posts about a few problems with his car - the front wheel bearings, and something else. So, I guess this is not a sudden issue with him. It seems some of the problems related to his car (except for the engine) stem from the VW pan that was used. It must be getting more difficult for Speedster builders to find decent VW pans, I would think. And I don't know how much mechanical rebuilding gets done on these pans before they are turned into a speedster.

Just some thoughts.

Yes I aggree with the don't shoot the messenger bit. However when the messenger digs a big hole and starts pulling others in with him deserves what he asked for. ...opinions. The letter written by Dale is obvious a ploy to tarnish JPS's reputation. It one of those " I'll fix you and have the last laugh" situations. It's obvious that we are not getting the whole story. So the engine failed ..... it could of been replaced. Then there is ( since I am in a pissed off mood)oh by the way your craftsmanship of your car sucks. I don't think John needs to reply to any of this. He obviously worked it out with Dale by aiding in the resale of the car. I just amazes me that still Dale is not satisfied and restored to this . Court rests on the never satisfied customer.

I am about done with this. I've just about said what I have to say. I applaud the JPS loyalists.

Yes, I initially gave the car a great review. Multiple major component failures, cosmetic flaws and band-aid cures changed my mind.

JPS' "noble" effort in returning my money. I quote John in saying "if you want to sell the car, I can get you your money back". When, after a lot of thought, I decided to take him up on it I was told "at no time did I offer you your money back". I can post the e-mails, if anyone finds it necessary. I never got a dime back from JPS. My car went to a speciality lot near San Francisco (recommended by JPS) in late July. Untill two weeks ago, I continued to pay the loan on the car. As of this morning, I have not recieved any money. They did, however, pay off the loan at my credit union so they now have the title. They indicated the car was sold about 6 weeks ago, but I guess those wheels turn slowly.

I understand I got a lemon. As I said to John - "a garage queen at best, a lemon at worst".


I'll say it again. The truth shouldn't hurt. I encourage anyone who is thinking that I am making JPS "look bad" to evaluate those four words.

Robert,

I believe that was Fred Kligman (a VS owner with similar troubles) we heard from earlier (in the "Reliability and Quality" thread on the "Mechanical: General" forum). I'm relatively certain the first we heard about this car was after the man got his money back. It seems disingenuous to me that NOW its imperative that we all hear about this. Shoot the messenger? Socrates? The right (or not) to shout "FIRE" in a crowded theater seems a bit closer to the "free speech" issue here.