As a registered owner Dale has a right to post his experiences.
Using the Search function I couldn't locate other posts by Dale. To be candid I would feel better if the trials and tribulations were posted when the saga was occuring rather than slamming John after the fact, especially when pulling single sentences out of emails that may or may not be out of context.
I am not faulting Dale or doubting his sincerity, as stated he has reason to be hopping mad, thought in fairness we haven't heard from John.
John, if you are out there you ought to consider adding your two cents even if it stirs up an already emotional thread.
Just to give an example of how a situarion might have been resolved...
Bought my VS in 2001. Within a week the clutch failed (normal driving) Kirk sent $$$ to replace clutch, arm, and cable, plus labor.
Two weeks later the Compufire fails at speed. Put points in and drive. Kirk sends new 009 with Compufire. I install.
Cam Bearing shears.... requiring splitting the case and looking into a chamber of horrors. Importer of crate motors gives credit for damage. I get with local builder and put together a new AS-41 SCAT internals Based 1776. Cost? About $400 in upgrades I did not have on original motor, so I charged Kirk nada.
Clip/turnbuckle on top fails. Kirk sends new bow and clips plus pays top shop labor.
Did not get Reutters Badge with car, Kirk sends free.
Car has always seeped just a drop of oil.... hey it's a split case engine dummies! Ever own a Harley?
Now someone else might have seen these things as part of a shoddy made Car. So was the car a lemon? Did Kirk sell me a bill of goods?
No, At least not in my opinion. Not me.... just part of the shake down of a handmade car.
And about the comment on pan based cars and their bearings and such. I took a good PM look over on my car before it's first big road trip. It had new bearings, new urethane bushings, all new front end hardware, the swing axles had all new bearings with the new freeway flyer Xs-axle. The pan was A-1 all the way.
Does this rant relate directly to the JPS issue? Maybe, Maybe not. For those who think I am defending a manufacturer.... I didn't buy from JPS! Nor am I attacking the messenger...... just trying to put some perspective on an issue we all seem to have an opinion on. My opinion? If JPS refunded me 100% then I would consider it a mater of honor to not rip his lips off in a public forum.
And that's the way I see it with Kirk. I had some problems, he addressed them, I was reimbursed, the car is what I want and meets my expectations after a year's shakedown.......... I'm not bitchin'.
\I do respect others right to express their opinions though!
Jim
Bought my VS in 2001. Within a week the clutch failed (normal driving) Kirk sent $$$ to replace clutch, arm, and cable, plus labor.
Two weeks later the Compufire fails at speed. Put points in and drive. Kirk sends new 009 with Compufire. I install.
Cam Bearing shears.... requiring splitting the case and looking into a chamber of horrors. Importer of crate motors gives credit for damage. I get with local builder and put together a new AS-41 SCAT internals Based 1776. Cost? About $400 in upgrades I did not have on original motor, so I charged Kirk nada.
Clip/turnbuckle on top fails. Kirk sends new bow and clips plus pays top shop labor.
Did not get Reutters Badge with car, Kirk sends free.
Car has always seeped just a drop of oil.... hey it's a split case engine dummies! Ever own a Harley?
Now someone else might have seen these things as part of a shoddy made Car. So was the car a lemon? Did Kirk sell me a bill of goods?
No, At least not in my opinion. Not me.... just part of the shake down of a handmade car.
And about the comment on pan based cars and their bearings and such. I took a good PM look over on my car before it's first big road trip. It had new bearings, new urethane bushings, all new front end hardware, the swing axles had all new bearings with the new freeway flyer Xs-axle. The pan was A-1 all the way.
Does this rant relate directly to the JPS issue? Maybe, Maybe not. For those who think I am defending a manufacturer.... I didn't buy from JPS! Nor am I attacking the messenger...... just trying to put some perspective on an issue we all seem to have an opinion on. My opinion? If JPS refunded me 100% then I would consider it a mater of honor to not rip his lips off in a public forum.
And that's the way I see it with Kirk. I had some problems, he addressed them, I was reimbursed, the car is what I want and meets my expectations after a year's shakedown.......... I'm not bitchin'.
\I do respect others right to express their opinions though!
Jim
I had made a conscious decision to stay silent on this issue...BUT since my name was brought up, please indulge me. I can certainly empathize with Dale's situation. Standing on the side of the road at 11pm waiting 3 hours for a flatbed to tow the car in gave me plenty of time to think about all that has gone wrong with my car. The hassle, the inconvenience, the sheer frustration, the uncertainty of its reliability. Not being especially mechanically inclined, it is even more frustrating not knowing what's causing the problems (I was told by one member of the speedster owners club to "learn how to fix things myself...it's not brain surgery"). I won
Jim summed up the problem I have with this better than I have. I own a JPS, so I'm sure I look biased- but a couple of months ago, someone was ripping on Gary Emory for a laundry list of reasons, and it bugged me enough to post then too. Some people want these cars to run like a new Honda, and wish buying stuff for them was like going to Wal-Mart. I wish they would find another ax to grind- I'm GLAD these cars aren't for everybody.
There are people trying to make a living supporting our hobby- small businesses with nothing but a reputation to sell. Someone trashing that reputation AFTER they have received what should have been reasonable compensation does none of us any good. If someone is committing fraud, or stealing money from buyers acting in good faith (CMC at the end, and Ryan spring to mind), then they should be brought into account. Otherwise, I say- back off.
There are people trying to make a living supporting our hobby- small businesses with nothing but a reputation to sell. Someone trashing that reputation AFTER they have received what should have been reasonable compensation does none of us any good. If someone is committing fraud, or stealing money from buyers acting in good faith (CMC at the end, and Ryan spring to mind), then they should be brought into account. Otherwise, I say- back off.
Stan I agree !
There seems to be a little space between just about done and done, in my case.
Stan - read my last post. I have recieved no compensation as of this morning. I did talk to what is essentially a used car salesman in San Francisco last night who assured me "the check is in the mail". I feel a lot better now.
The oil leak. Every morning, there would be a 3-4 inch puddle of oil under the car. After a 20 minute drive, the car would sit there and smoke for another 10. I could run my finger under the bumper or rear of the car, and it would come up black. I demonstrated this at JPS. John silently handed me a shop rag. There are several less than attractive oil stains on both my driveways, especially the concrete one.
The car is gone, but somehow not forgotten.
Stan - read my last post. I have recieved no compensation as of this morning. I did talk to what is essentially a used car salesman in San Francisco last night who assured me "the check is in the mail". I feel a lot better now.
The oil leak. Every morning, there would be a 3-4 inch puddle of oil under the car. After a 20 minute drive, the car would sit there and smoke for another 10. I could run my finger under the bumper or rear of the car, and it would come up black. I demonstrated this at JPS. John silently handed me a shop rag. There are several less than attractive oil stains on both my driveways, especially the concrete one.
The car is gone, but somehow not forgotten.
Dale,
I sold a pristine Mustang (in order to have Kirk build my Speedster) through Specialty Sales in Pleasanton. It took about 4 weeks for me to get a check with the proceeds of the Mustang. Didn't quite understand why so long but if they do this with 20K (or more)times a few people.... huh.... Hang tight. You'll get your $$$.~R
I sold a pristine Mustang (in order to have Kirk build my Speedster) through Specialty Sales in Pleasanton. It took about 4 weeks for me to get a check with the proceeds of the Mustang. Didn't quite understand why so long but if they do this with 20K (or more)times a few people.... huh.... Hang tight. You'll get your $$$.~R
To Fred and All Potential Buyers Of a Speedster Replica, a Cobra, a Cobra Replica a Speedster, any early 911 series, a Classic Car, and old truck, or a 32 Highboy:
"learn how to fix things myself...it's .......
IT'S EXCELLENT ADVICE!
Jim Ward
"learn how to fix things myself...it's .......
IT'S EXCELLENT ADVICE!
Jim Ward
Jim,
There is a very large old car club that has as its publication a very nice magazine called, "Skinned Knuckles". I think that is about the best title I've ever seen for a club publication and aptly sums up
what hobbiests are in for if they want to "get" into this hobby. Granted I don't do as much on cars as I used to, but I still like to tinker a little. A great deal of satisfaction when you can fix a problem yourself. I wonder if Dale Farmer investigated himself where his oil leak was coming from? I think that although the Speedster replicars can be relatively trouble free, it is prudent to do more than put gas in them, (same could be said for most cars), The modern cars today are pretty much maintainence free, tuneups at 100,000 miles, tires last 60,000, etc,etc. The Speedster is old technology folks and as such requires a lot more involvement, but to me that is some of the charm.
Hopefully this whole thing is put to bed, although my final comment on the delayed payout of a consigned car is an old ploy used by these dealers to get some interest on your money before paying it out. I know because my Mothers lawyer did the same thing to my sister and I for months after the estate was settled. Guess what, exactly 1 year and 20 days we got a check, he had the proceeds in his own interest bearing account!
Bruce
There is a very large old car club that has as its publication a very nice magazine called, "Skinned Knuckles". I think that is about the best title I've ever seen for a club publication and aptly sums up
what hobbiests are in for if they want to "get" into this hobby. Granted I don't do as much on cars as I used to, but I still like to tinker a little. A great deal of satisfaction when you can fix a problem yourself. I wonder if Dale Farmer investigated himself where his oil leak was coming from? I think that although the Speedster replicars can be relatively trouble free, it is prudent to do more than put gas in them, (same could be said for most cars), The modern cars today are pretty much maintainence free, tuneups at 100,000 miles, tires last 60,000, etc,etc. The Speedster is old technology folks and as such requires a lot more involvement, but to me that is some of the charm.
Hopefully this whole thing is put to bed, although my final comment on the delayed payout of a consigned car is an old ploy used by these dealers to get some interest on your money before paying it out. I know because my Mothers lawyer did the same thing to my sister and I for months after the estate was settled. Guess what, exactly 1 year and 20 days we got a check, he had the proceeds in his own interest bearing account!
Bruce
Jim
Does fixing it myself include breaking down 250 miles from home on the NJ Turnpike, pulling the engine and clutch to find out the transmission had seized? Or replacing desintagrated wheel bearings?Or replacing blown rear axle seals?
The issue in my opinion is not who gets their hands greasy doing the repair. The issue is the quality control aspect of the parts used and the way they were installed. I applaud and respect all those that choose to work on their cars themselves.
It's a little difficult living on the 19th floor of a highrise, pulling out my tools, and trying to figure out how I am going to pull the engine and work on the clutch/transmission.
Does fixing it myself include breaking down 250 miles from home on the NJ Turnpike, pulling the engine and clutch to find out the transmission had seized? Or replacing desintagrated wheel bearings?Or replacing blown rear axle seals?
The issue in my opinion is not who gets their hands greasy doing the repair. The issue is the quality control aspect of the parts used and the way they were installed. I applaud and respect all those that choose to work on their cars themselves.
It's a little difficult living on the 19th floor of a highrise, pulling out my tools, and trying to figure out how I am going to pull the engine and work on the clutch/transmission.
"the car I wanted since high school..."
Me too Dale. I'm not gonna take sides here, it just strikes me that for all of us these cars become an emotional investment. These are cars that we have dreamed about, maybe for many years. Disappointment, and apparently in Dales case such high disappointment so early on, can be crushing because of that emotional investment - he expected it was a dream finally realized. I am sorry for both Dale and John. I hope Dale can get another Speedster without problems. John has a lot of satisfied customers and I hope he continues to have more.
Me too Dale. I'm not gonna take sides here, it just strikes me that for all of us these cars become an emotional investment. These are cars that we have dreamed about, maybe for many years. Disappointment, and apparently in Dales case such high disappointment so early on, can be crushing because of that emotional investment - he expected it was a dream finally realized. I am sorry for both Dale and John. I hope Dale can get another Speedster without problems. John has a lot of satisfied customers and I hope he continues to have more.
I'm glad Stan saw my real point.....it was not meant to be an attack on Dale, but an observation and concern.....WE NEED TO CHANGE the rating system.
And although I feel sorry for Dale I WILL NOT take his post at fair value as he did wait until he felt he didn't have anything to risk and a great way to get revenge.
I have to agree with a post earlier that says a lot of problems are caused by not having expectations in writing with penalties for not meeting them. It is to bad this advice isn't used more often...ie: Why did you not get it in writing how and when the money would come after selling of car? I guess I don't completely understand how the car was sold, but believe me noboby...NOBODY....gets a title to the car from me until I have money in hand.
All in all.... if it makes dale feel any better the core issue is the quality of the parts going into the cars and the quality of the build, and on this point I feel he has every right to be mad and every right not to expect to have so much trouble. I like the post that says "wouldn't we all be mad if this happened to us"
And even though the information seems a little late I really do appreciate Dale coming onto the site and posting his feelings and his on going problems. We all learn from each other.
And although I feel sorry for Dale I WILL NOT take his post at fair value as he did wait until he felt he didn't have anything to risk and a great way to get revenge.
I have to agree with a post earlier that says a lot of problems are caused by not having expectations in writing with penalties for not meeting them. It is to bad this advice isn't used more often...ie: Why did you not get it in writing how and when the money would come after selling of car? I guess I don't completely understand how the car was sold, but believe me noboby...NOBODY....gets a title to the car from me until I have money in hand.
All in all.... if it makes dale feel any better the core issue is the quality of the parts going into the cars and the quality of the build, and on this point I feel he has every right to be mad and every right not to expect to have so much trouble. I like the post that says "wouldn't we all be mad if this happened to us"
And even though the information seems a little late I really do appreciate Dale coming onto the site and posting his feelings and his on going problems. We all learn from each other.
Sounds to me like JPS has major quality control problem. Is it trying to sell a custom made car at too low of a price to intice customers? Maybe it's time JPS increased their prices and improved their quality control. Kit car or not, you DO NOT expect your engine and transmission to blow within a few hundred miles. This "it's a kit car and you shouldn't expect a Honda" is crap. If you can't produce a quality car, then changes should be made or you will go out of business.
Ron
Ron
Well, Ron, there it is. Your post is exactly why I took exception to Dale's original "open letter to John Steele." You read Dale's side of the story and made up your mind.
Like they say in dirty political campaigns, "You can't unring a bell."
Like they say in dirty political campaigns, "You can't unring a bell."
I find this forum very useful in a number of ways. I have found great information on just about every aspect on these replicas. I have also enjoyed the comraderie as well as the bantering. It has also been quite a plus when the different builders, both engine and car, have contributed to the forum.
I have been gathering information for awhile to help me make a decision on if I wanted one of these beautiful cars. And if I did, would I purchase a new one or buy used. I decided to buy new, and I decided to go with JPS.
I have had my own business for 29 years now. 0 employees, one man shop. My business is 100 percent referral. I know how important customer satisfaction is. I also know that shit happens.
We all know there are sitiuations that will come about that no matter what, somebody is going to get the wrong end of the sucker. May I suggest that in the future, perhaps problems like this one could be handled differently.
Theron has done a great job with this site. With the resources at hand, a disgruntled customer could look up members with the same car builder. Sometimes personalities get in the way and perhaps those members can work together with the builder to resolve the issue. We look to each other all the time for valuable information. We can help each other when issues like this arise.
No one benifits when a situation reaches this point. Except in a divorce. Attorneys do quite well.
I have been gathering information for awhile to help me make a decision on if I wanted one of these beautiful cars. And if I did, would I purchase a new one or buy used. I decided to buy new, and I decided to go with JPS.
I have had my own business for 29 years now. 0 employees, one man shop. My business is 100 percent referral. I know how important customer satisfaction is. I also know that shit happens.
We all know there are sitiuations that will come about that no matter what, somebody is going to get the wrong end of the sucker. May I suggest that in the future, perhaps problems like this one could be handled differently.
Theron has done a great job with this site. With the resources at hand, a disgruntled customer could look up members with the same car builder. Sometimes personalities get in the way and perhaps those members can work together with the builder to resolve the issue. We look to each other all the time for valuable information. We can help each other when issues like this arise.
No one benifits when a situation reaches this point. Except in a divorce. Attorneys do quite well.
Anybody out there who thinks this tale didn't need telling? Anybody at all? JPS fans, I understand your loyalty. I was one too. I told John repeatedly I wasn't worried, I knew there was a good car at the end of all the problems. Please, thanks, I understand, I don't mind waiting, I said all that too.
To those who question my silence up to this point....it should be no secret I feared a prospective buyer would read the car's history and run screaming into the night. If I had the money, I would have sent that car to the crusher rather than sell it to some poor bastard. Does my silence make me a bad guy? Think of me what you will.
Everyone has heard the phrase "the truth hurts". For the last time, I say the truth shouldn't hurt.
To those who question my silence up to this point....it should be no secret I feared a prospective buyer would read the car's history and run screaming into the night. If I had the money, I would have sent that car to the crusher rather than sell it to some poor bastard. Does my silence make me a bad guy? Think of me what you will.
Everyone has heard the phrase "the truth hurts". For the last time, I say the truth shouldn't hurt.
So he should post his problems with the car, and then try to sell it? That would be fair... but stupid. In addition, it's just human nature not to want to admit that maybe you made a mistake with your purchase.
A car like this is supposed to be fun. With that many problems with a brand new car, it just went from fun to frightening. I want to drive my car anywhere I want to go, not have to think through the trip trying to make sure there are lots of spots along the way where I can pull off when the car dies again. Oh, and now my wife can't drive it cuz we can't trust it to get her anywhere. Even John would be pissed if it was his car that had these problems. As it was, it was a customers car. There was a warranty on the car, and I think John had an obligation to make it right. Was the customer being unreasonable? That depends whether you think it is unreasonable to expect the car to perform its intended function, to make it from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time. And to not embarrass itself in the process. Leaving a cup of oil on the ground is not acceptable in anyones books.
To me the quality control issue is secondary. Everyone who builds stuff is going to have the odd lemon, regardless of quality control. The real issue is customer service. If I am looking to purchase a car, I want to know what to expect from a builder if everything that can go wrong does. Who is to say that 'my' car won't have more problems than this one? If it does, I want to know that the warranty has more value than the paper it is printed on.
A car like this is supposed to be fun. With that many problems with a brand new car, it just went from fun to frightening. I want to drive my car anywhere I want to go, not have to think through the trip trying to make sure there are lots of spots along the way where I can pull off when the car dies again. Oh, and now my wife can't drive it cuz we can't trust it to get her anywhere. Even John would be pissed if it was his car that had these problems. As it was, it was a customers car. There was a warranty on the car, and I think John had an obligation to make it right. Was the customer being unreasonable? That depends whether you think it is unreasonable to expect the car to perform its intended function, to make it from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time. And to not embarrass itself in the process. Leaving a cup of oil on the ground is not acceptable in anyones books.
To me the quality control issue is secondary. Everyone who builds stuff is going to have the odd lemon, regardless of quality control. The real issue is customer service. If I am looking to purchase a car, I want to know what to expect from a builder if everything that can go wrong does. Who is to say that 'my' car won't have more problems than this one? If it does, I want to know that the warranty has more value than the paper it is printed on.
Those of us who have been on this forum have seen most of the manufacturers take a "hit" on a car, and most of the aftermarket engine folks too. We even had an east coast seller of VS cars take a couple of flames in the forums.
What I watch for are trends.... such as the one on GEX that floats through all the different VW related discussions. So, deserved or undeserved, GEX would be the last engine builder I would use. Jake took a small hit once for a warranty issue... I would use him any day. Pat Downs? I'll bet you will find a few disgruntled owners there too... yet he is the best in many eyes. And I would go with him for a custom T-1.
VS? Paint seems to be the common theme.... a trend. I don't know, Kirk sent me a car that still garners praise on the paint 2 years later. But there is that "hit" out there... buyers should insist on a quality paint before closing the deal at delivery.
JPS? Years ago John was a little hard to get a hold of. He lived that reputation down, and came out as one of our morte active participators from the Manufacturers corner. John has earned much praise for his cars....... and then this happens. Aw Shit. But one does not make a trend, unless you are a former FAA manager, (The abscence of a trend, in itself indicates a trend).
IM? Just noted in GBs San Juan thread that a gentleman was commenting on bringing in his car for some glitches and getting a hardtop. GLITCHES! ON AN IM! Does this indicate a problem.... nope! Just reality... even $40,000 "kit cars" "replicas" "hand built classics" are not perfect. I imagine Henry takes care of glitches just as Kirk and John have in the past.
Complaints. This may be a valid one..... time will tell. One of us, Dale Farmer, vented, and it's up to us to decide what happened without really knowing.... maybe ever. But it's the first big one for JPS substantiated or unsubstantiated. That does not make for a trend. I'm ordering some parts from JPS Monday morning. Hope this thread dies during the weekend too. Dale, hope you buy a VS or Beck, or an IM and stay with us. We all like these cars, and the fraternity of owners.
Jim
Fan of VS, JPS, IM & am looking at those Becks.
What I watch for are trends.... such as the one on GEX that floats through all the different VW related discussions. So, deserved or undeserved, GEX would be the last engine builder I would use. Jake took a small hit once for a warranty issue... I would use him any day. Pat Downs? I'll bet you will find a few disgruntled owners there too... yet he is the best in many eyes. And I would go with him for a custom T-1.
VS? Paint seems to be the common theme.... a trend. I don't know, Kirk sent me a car that still garners praise on the paint 2 years later. But there is that "hit" out there... buyers should insist on a quality paint before closing the deal at delivery.
JPS? Years ago John was a little hard to get a hold of. He lived that reputation down, and came out as one of our morte active participators from the Manufacturers corner. John has earned much praise for his cars....... and then this happens. Aw Shit. But one does not make a trend, unless you are a former FAA manager, (The abscence of a trend, in itself indicates a trend).
IM? Just noted in GBs San Juan thread that a gentleman was commenting on bringing in his car for some glitches and getting a hardtop. GLITCHES! ON AN IM! Does this indicate a problem.... nope! Just reality... even $40,000 "kit cars" "replicas" "hand built classics" are not perfect. I imagine Henry takes care of glitches just as Kirk and John have in the past.
Complaints. This may be a valid one..... time will tell. One of us, Dale Farmer, vented, and it's up to us to decide what happened without really knowing.... maybe ever. But it's the first big one for JPS substantiated or unsubstantiated. That does not make for a trend. I'm ordering some parts from JPS Monday morning. Hope this thread dies during the weekend too. Dale, hope you buy a VS or Beck, or an IM and stay with us. We all like these cars, and the fraternity of owners.
Jim
Fan of VS, JPS, IM & am looking at those Becks.
What could one say at this point that hasn
Jim,
Very well said ...Any chance you may have at one time past or present, dabbled in politics ? :)
Yes, we have all seen and heard the good, the bad and a smidge of the ugly regarding our rides. I would like to add that owning a kit/replica is an on going rolling hobby ,that our projects are never quite completed,for if they were, we would surely be bored.
With the many projects I have assembled and "restored"...
I can relate to few self administered "Fubars" created by myself. Such problems are best addressed and resolved with great dispatch without concern for the almighty bottom line profit margin . The absolute best advertisement is good, old fashion word of mouth.
I'll mention that there has been a lack of quality control for a number of years with turn key replica's in general no matter who the the manufacture might be ... There also is a need for the manufactures to take the time to create an owners manual and provide same to the buyer that contains an overview of the basic mechanical aspects and upkeep that is geared for the shade tree mechanic.
Very well said ...Any chance you may have at one time past or present, dabbled in politics ? :)
Yes, we have all seen and heard the good, the bad and a smidge of the ugly regarding our rides. I would like to add that owning a kit/replica is an on going rolling hobby ,that our projects are never quite completed,for if they were, we would surely be bored.
With the many projects I have assembled and "restored"...
I can relate to few self administered "Fubars" created by myself. Such problems are best addressed and resolved with great dispatch without concern for the almighty bottom line profit margin . The absolute best advertisement is good, old fashion word of mouth.
I'll mention that there has been a lack of quality control for a number of years with turn key replica's in general no matter who the the manufacture might be ... There also is a need for the manufactures to take the time to create an owners manual and provide same to the buyer that contains an overview of the basic mechanical aspects and upkeep that is geared for the shade tree mechanic.
Fellows,
I have a dream where we can all get together and have a brew and break bread together, builders and owners. I don't think there were any ideas expressed that were bad or wrong, just individual interpretations of the facts presented. This blending of ideas and differing views are what makes this site great, the best.
just my 2 kroner
John H.
pass the meatballs, PLEASE!
I have a dream where we can all get together and have a brew and break bread together, builders and owners. I don't think there were any ideas expressed that were bad or wrong, just individual interpretations of the facts presented. This blending of ideas and differing views are what makes this site great, the best.
just my 2 kroner
John H.
pass the meatballs, PLEASE!
Gentlemen,
Plans are in the works for just such a gathering of owners and manufacturers (for a frank discussion) at the REPLICA RENDEZVOUS in conjunction with the Knotts Berry Farm Kit Car Show April 24-25, 2004 in Anaheim, CA. Details after the holidays, but save the dates and plan to bring yourself (and your Speedster) to Southern California in the spring!
Now - will someone please put a fork in this topic? - IT'S DONE!
Plans are in the works for just such a gathering of owners and manufacturers (for a frank discussion) at the REPLICA RENDEZVOUS in conjunction with the Knotts Berry Farm Kit Car Show April 24-25, 2004 in Anaheim, CA. Details after the holidays, but save the dates and plan to bring yourself (and your Speedster) to Southern California in the spring!
Now - will someone please put a fork in this topic? - IT'S DONE!
I am surprised by some people
I'd like to take this time to once again thank everyone on this site for the wealth of information they share.
Next fall, god willing, I am planning to purchase a car from JPS.
I don't think it's unreasonable to "expect the best" but "prepare for the worst." I think this goes for any purchase. It seems that the majority of JPS owners are generally positive about their vehicles with a few glitches here and there that seem to be taken care of in a satisfactory manner.
Having owned a small business myself as well as running businesses for other people (construction, home improvement, decks, gazebos...etc) I know (as does anyone business) that ALL I HAVE is my reputation.
John knows this as well. Parts fail. Sh*t happens. In the businesses that I've been involved with I know that there is a good chance that something is going to go wrong after the project is complete.
A board will split. A screw will back itself out.
There is certain percentage of failure for each piece of the project and at some point the dials have to come up all lemons.
It's always been my policy to back-up my projects completely. If something fails, they call me and I come out and repair it.
I'm proud to say that about 98% of all my past clients LOVE me. I get Christmas cards from people I built stairs for 5 years ago.
BUT...
At least one customer HATES me.
It was a large deck/gazebo project. Every looked great when it was done and photos of the project and word-of-mouth probably brought me 6 or 7 new projects from new clients.
About a month later we had a big windstorm and several of the railing sections BLEW OFF. I'm no hack. I use the best fasteners. I notch everything together. It would take A LOT of effort to tear something of mine apart. But the wind took it out. Screws had snapped in half.
I fixed it but the customer never quite regained confidence.
Come summer about 25% of the decking boards had split severely or warped so badly that they pulled themselves up from the frame! The 6X6 posts for the Gazebo ALL twisted so badly that the roof had buckled!
None of this was my fault. It took me a few weeks before I could open up a spot on the schedule to begin repairs on the damage. Basically we had to tear off the decking and rip down the gazebo and re-build.
This was a lot of money that I didn't currently have.
So I had to again wait to re-finish the job until I got deposits from other projects.
It took a long time. Maybe two months?
The customer started harassing me. Watching our progress. "Secretly" videotaping us working from a bedroom window. Writing with crayon on every tiny little flaw they could find.
Threatening to call the Better Business Bureau and the morning news.
It was ridiculous.
My point is that when something goes wrong any smart businessman knows that it's only good and right to fix the problem.
But when EVERYTHING goes wrong... it's difficult, at best, to handle the problem correctly.
Maybe John didn't handle it as well as he could have.
Maybe he could have done better to defuse the situation.
But when suddenly faced with a complete mess that may or may not be completely your fault... it's easy to slip into white lies and wrong answers. It's a real sock in the guts to both the anticapating customer and the proud craftsman.
It's easy for that customer that you were happy to please with a wonderful product to quickly become your "enemy."
I think it's just human nature.
But, at the end.... John pulled through by getting Dale his money back.
So again I say, "Expect the best." List out everything you want and don't want. Have it in writing. It's your money, you should get exactly what is advertised and promised.
But "prepare for the worst." It could happen. Everything could be wrong. Handle it with grace. Yes it's a "dream car." But it's still JUST A CAR.
I just felt like rambling.
Next fall, god willing, I am planning to purchase a car from JPS.
I don't think it's unreasonable to "expect the best" but "prepare for the worst." I think this goes for any purchase. It seems that the majority of JPS owners are generally positive about their vehicles with a few glitches here and there that seem to be taken care of in a satisfactory manner.
Having owned a small business myself as well as running businesses for other people (construction, home improvement, decks, gazebos...etc) I know (as does anyone business) that ALL I HAVE is my reputation.
John knows this as well. Parts fail. Sh*t happens. In the businesses that I've been involved with I know that there is a good chance that something is going to go wrong after the project is complete.
A board will split. A screw will back itself out.
There is certain percentage of failure for each piece of the project and at some point the dials have to come up all lemons.
It's always been my policy to back-up my projects completely. If something fails, they call me and I come out and repair it.
I'm proud to say that about 98% of all my past clients LOVE me. I get Christmas cards from people I built stairs for 5 years ago.
BUT...
At least one customer HATES me.
It was a large deck/gazebo project. Every looked great when it was done and photos of the project and word-of-mouth probably brought me 6 or 7 new projects from new clients.
About a month later we had a big windstorm and several of the railing sections BLEW OFF. I'm no hack. I use the best fasteners. I notch everything together. It would take A LOT of effort to tear something of mine apart. But the wind took it out. Screws had snapped in half.
I fixed it but the customer never quite regained confidence.
Come summer about 25% of the decking boards had split severely or warped so badly that they pulled themselves up from the frame! The 6X6 posts for the Gazebo ALL twisted so badly that the roof had buckled!
None of this was my fault. It took me a few weeks before I could open up a spot on the schedule to begin repairs on the damage. Basically we had to tear off the decking and rip down the gazebo and re-build.
This was a lot of money that I didn't currently have.
So I had to again wait to re-finish the job until I got deposits from other projects.
It took a long time. Maybe two months?
The customer started harassing me. Watching our progress. "Secretly" videotaping us working from a bedroom window. Writing with crayon on every tiny little flaw they could find.
Threatening to call the Better Business Bureau and the morning news.
It was ridiculous.
My point is that when something goes wrong any smart businessman knows that it's only good and right to fix the problem.
But when EVERYTHING goes wrong... it's difficult, at best, to handle the problem correctly.
Maybe John didn't handle it as well as he could have.
Maybe he could have done better to defuse the situation.
But when suddenly faced with a complete mess that may or may not be completely your fault... it's easy to slip into white lies and wrong answers. It's a real sock in the guts to both the anticapating customer and the proud craftsman.
It's easy for that customer that you were happy to please with a wonderful product to quickly become your "enemy."
I think it's just human nature.
But, at the end.... John pulled through by getting Dale his money back.
So again I say, "Expect the best." List out everything you want and don't want. Have it in writing. It's your money, you should get exactly what is advertised and promised.
But "prepare for the worst." It could happen. Everything could be wrong. Handle it with grace. Yes it's a "dream car." But it's still JUST A CAR.
I just felt like rambling.
I used to be in the machinery sales business, and let me tell you it was a nightmare!!!! I had a saying that I told every single customer...."when the machine gets here and you figure out everything that is wrong with it, give me a call and I'll arrange to get it fixed." Customers would almost always answer "oh I would think there wouldn't be anything wrong".....my reply was "there is always something wrong, any machine this complicated always needs some work after delivery"
I was once told that another sales person had said he could sell the same machine "and there won't be any problems"
Who do you think got the order?
Me of course, but I have lost a few orders just because of this saying, and I am thankful for every loss I had.
Let me also say that even the best manufacturers would occasionally produce a "lemon", but knowing that didn't change the taste of the lemon.
I was once told that another sales person had said he could sell the same machine "and there won't be any problems"
Who do you think got the order?
Me of course, but I have lost a few orders just because of this saying, and I am thankful for every loss I had.
Let me also say that even the best manufacturers would occasionally produce a "lemon", but knowing that didn't change the taste of the lemon.
Adian and Steven,
I've never been in business, just a working drone and manager in Air Traffic Control for 27 years. (retired) And so your posts were interesting reads and give me some perspective. Thank you for sharing in such a frank way. These are good ones to file away in the memory banks the next time I contract something at the hacienda and there is a glitch or two.
I can relate though in a way... in my former profession there was supposedly no margin for error. (Yeah, right, mix humans and computers, and machines....) So when you screwed up THE WHOLE WORLD knew it, or so it seemed. And it pissed off the customers too... with luck.
Jim
I've never been in business, just a working drone and manager in Air Traffic Control for 27 years. (retired) And so your posts were interesting reads and give me some perspective. Thank you for sharing in such a frank way. These are good ones to file away in the memory banks the next time I contract something at the hacienda and there is a glitch or two.
I can relate though in a way... in my former profession there was supposedly no margin for error. (Yeah, right, mix humans and computers, and machines....) So when you screwed up THE WHOLE WORLD knew it, or so it seemed. And it pissed off the customers too... with luck.
Jim
Adian,
Your perspective on this thread is a good one. Any one of us who is a "one man business" can releate to your "deck from hell" story.
I once saw a sign in a small business that read:
"To any dissatisfied customer: If I gave you DOUBLE your money back, burned my business to the ground, and committed suicide...THEN would you be happy?"
Sadly, I think in Dale's case the answer would still be, "No."
Your perspective on this thread is a good one. Any one of us who is a "one man business" can releate to your "deck from hell" story.
I once saw a sign in a small business that read:
"To any dissatisfied customer: If I gave you DOUBLE your money back, burned my business to the ground, and committed suicide...THEN would you be happy?"
Sadly, I think in Dale's case the answer would still be, "No."
General statement:
These engines have one HUGE ENEMY... the wrong guy, with a 13mm wrench! Like I tell all my customers, The best guy for the install is the owner of the car! I will make all the phone calls in the world to walk guys through it themselves, as conventional shops RUIN these engines! These engines are all about tune, and since most of them don't come with tuning specs, who knows what to set things at??Thats why I have a 50 page spec manual, and create each one with the engine as it is built- No guesswork. Guess work Kills!
I don't even offer a warranty! I have not offered a warranty in almost 2 years! In fact all engines are sold with a warranty disclaimer! But do you ever hear anyone gripe?? ever hear of one grenading? There is a reason for that, and its called a guy thats heavy on the dyno throttle for a solid day....Yes, I break engines on the dyno, but they are repaired, then re tested...I try to break engines on the dyno- if I cannot break it, the customer damn sure cannot.(unless they really try)
As for the party listed in these posts, he and his business have never purchased an engine, or a cooling system from me. He has emailed me, but shops don't receive a discount for what I do, they are just like every other customer. My prices are not negotiable.
I'm sorry to hear about the issues, even the best of us have issues with customers from time to time. I'm fortunate enough to be able to hand pick customers, and I do turn down quite a few guys that are asking WWAAYYYYYY more from these engines than they will ever get.........The hardest thing is saying no to money....BUT its the wisest thing when you get a sniff of a customer that won't be co operative, or be able to be pleased. I'd rather turn a job down, as have a glitch on my rep! All it takes is ONE!
These engines have one HUGE ENEMY... the wrong guy, with a 13mm wrench! Like I tell all my customers, The best guy for the install is the owner of the car! I will make all the phone calls in the world to walk guys through it themselves, as conventional shops RUIN these engines! These engines are all about tune, and since most of them don't come with tuning specs, who knows what to set things at??Thats why I have a 50 page spec manual, and create each one with the engine as it is built- No guesswork. Guess work Kills!
I don't even offer a warranty! I have not offered a warranty in almost 2 years! In fact all engines are sold with a warranty disclaimer! But do you ever hear anyone gripe?? ever hear of one grenading? There is a reason for that, and its called a guy thats heavy on the dyno throttle for a solid day....Yes, I break engines on the dyno, but they are repaired, then re tested...I try to break engines on the dyno- if I cannot break it, the customer damn sure cannot.(unless they really try)
As for the party listed in these posts, he and his business have never purchased an engine, or a cooling system from me. He has emailed me, but shops don't receive a discount for what I do, they are just like every other customer. My prices are not negotiable.
I'm sorry to hear about the issues, even the best of us have issues with customers from time to time. I'm fortunate enough to be able to hand pick customers, and I do turn down quite a few guys that are asking WWAAYYYYYY more from these engines than they will ever get.........The hardest thing is saying no to money....BUT its the wisest thing when you get a sniff of a customer that won't be co operative, or be able to be pleased. I'd rather turn a job down, as have a glitch on my rep! All it takes is ONE!
Anytime someone takes my money, delivers a sub-standard, failure-prone product, with multiple unsucessful attempts to make it right, offers me my money back (in writing) then weasels out on the offer........uh, yeah....they make the list of people I'm pissed at. No, it's not a long list. Just two on it, at present. JPS for the above reasons, and myself for tolerating his BS excuses and lame attempts to correct the problems for so long.
Anybody, anbody at all, getting tired of hearing me say "the truth shouldn't hurt"?
I'm done here guys. Your'e on your own.
Anybody, anbody at all, getting tired of hearing me say "the truth shouldn't hurt"?
I'm done here guys. Your'e on your own.
I hear you Dale. I really do.
Mike
Mike