JPS Subaru

$45k seems more than a bit dear to me.  I wonder if John Steele gets that much for them new.

What does the suby engine sound like?  If you're gonna pay for something so nearly authentic, then why would you want it to sound and behave like a modern engine?  

So you can drive it drive it drive it.   The sound of an Aircooled engine is a sweet melody especially if you have a six, but a Subie brings a whole other level of driveability and torque, did I say torque yes I did,   this is a beautiful addition to the equation and adds a level of turn the key and drive that is quite enjoyable if you want to drive the car without as much fine tuning, carb adjustments, warm up, valve adjustment.  I like A/Cooled but fewer techs are knowledgeable where I live. 

You make some good points. I'm new to air cooled. So much drama with the smoke and sputtering at start. I think the owner is missing out on a little extra joy in that package 

the AC world is quite an interesting world it's just different and owning these cars is not for the faint of heart. One needs to be informed before you jump in.  Some cannot handle the tinkering needed and abandon ship very early in the experience. If you think of it as owning an old car then you can start to understand why it needs more fine tuning, adjustments.  

I had an excellent CB performance 2054 for 6 years, but last year, switched to a 2.5L Suby.

I mainly drive around town, and despite warming my car up, it always seemed to be finally running right when I got where I was going.

Now, she starts right up and the torque puts me back in my seat.

I have true dual exhaust with glass packs with augers added.

It's quieter at idle and cruise, but louder on acceleration.

It's still a flat four engine with a similar tone.

I am most happy with the sound and performance of the new engine.

> On Mar 5, 2017, at 12:45 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:
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If I bought that car one of the first things I'd do to it is fabricate a big air scoop to fit up against the road side of the rad.

This would almost eliminate the possibility of any rocks or road debris hitting the rad and it would help with the cooling by forcing air directly into the rad.

Gee I thought they would just funnel the rock into the rad... no just kidding.  While an air scoop would aid to funnel more cooling air at speed, it doesn't do anything if your idling stuck in traffic. You have two situations so to speak to deal with a waterboxer. 

It's a nice looking car. Clean, no-drama install of the Sube. I'll be interested to see if $45k is close to right. 

Thinking here as follows:

A nice, base, used VS is low 20s.

Suby upgrade parts & prep are $5,000, plus or minus.

Install of same is a hundred hours for a semi-skilled person. At $25 an hour that rings up to $2500.

So: $22,000 Speedster + Subification = $29,500, more or less.

Those seem like real numbers, Ed-- except for the $25/hr part. Shop rates are nearer to $100/hr. That makes 100 hrs $10K, which makes the car $32k, which would be about right.

Yes, the car is over priced.  It's a nice build, and someone will get a good car, but 45K is really pushing it.  The dealer is just trying to get on the current nostalgia bandwagon.

 

This is another one of those cars that leaves me scratching my head and asking why it's for sale.

If the point of Suby power is to just drive it, drive it, drive it, why didn't they?

1500 miles in a year and a half. I'd have put that on in the first two months if my car had allowed it.  But thinking back to that painful time, there were a few, uh issues to resolve first.

Maybe they didn't quite figure out how to cool it, cool it, cool it?

 

Ron O posted:

If I bought that car one of the first things I'd do to it is fabricate a big air scoop to fit up against the road side of the rad.

This would almost eliminate the possibility of any rocks or road debris hitting the rad and it would help with the cooling by forcing air directly into the rad.

You don't need that big of a scoop. My Saab 9000 rad is up front and almost horizontal....just up a bit at the front much like this JPS one now that I take a closer look at all the pics. My scoop's front opening was originally 18" x 3" and now it's down to 12" x 3" and in moderate temps that's too big. I've tested it a bit and stuffed a sponge in one side which brought it down to 6" x 3" and it still works fine. 

If I was cruising the desert again I wouldn't go back to anything larger than 12" x 3".  I did install some rock guard material that is a lightweight, plastic honeycomb material used on rads for dirt track racing and it covers anything exposed downwards. 

I should point out that what I said above is " that's what works for me" and it may not work for everybody. HP causes heat and more HP would put more demand on your cooling system. I use my car mostly for cruising and don't put my foot into it all that much. Get into turbos or whatever makes higher hp will require something more complicated but the pros at Beck and IM have figured this all out. 

Stan, I'm using "what actual mechanics actually earn in an hour" not "what shops charge for an hour of their mechanics' work (according to the book)." $25 is more than most U.S. mechanics earn now. Hell, it's more than I make now, as a college-educated reporter with 25 years experience and multiple national awards. It's about what I'd get on a GA assembly line to start.

Most "shops" won't touch this swap. But a "mechanic" might just.

At $10k labor the swap is about $15k all-in, which brings our prototypical VS + Subification grand total to $37,000.

 

I know what they make, Ed. I also know it's not easy to buy labor from a "guy" rather than a shop.

 

Another thing is that a really clean used VS or JPS is getting harder to find at $22K (at least here on the left coast).

This SF Bay car is listed at $28K, with not much special about it, just really clean and low miles. Granted, it has been on the market for a while at that price.

So, add another $3-4K to the equation, and you're over $40K. The asking price of the JPS Suby may not be that far off in today's market if you figure there's some wiggle room built in.

 

@Sacto Mitch I've been watching that speedster in Los Gatos. He had it on eBay at no reserve, but somehow it didn't sell at the high bid of $23,000. The eBay listing on the car was a bit more accurate. It told how the frunk was not properly latched, flung up when at speed and took a chunk of fiberglass out at the windshield wiper arm. Funny how that never gets mentioned on the Craigslist posting. I don't think that guy is really serious about selling. I've reached out to him twice. The first time he told me I got only one day to check out the car before the eBay listing ends, but never provided his address when I asked. I reached out to him recently and the same thing. He told me he's available nights and weekends, but never follows through with the details of where to meet. 

Hmmm, the frunk didn't properly latch? Sounds familiar.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Another thing is that a really clean used VS or JPS is getting harder to find at $22K (at least here on the left coast).

This SF Bay car is listed at $28K, with not much special about it, just really clean and low miles. Granted, it has been on the market for a while at that price.

So, add another $3-4K to the equation, and you're over $40K. The asking price of the JPS Suby may not be that far off in today's market if you figure there's some wiggle room built in.

 

In other news... I saw this car today in Morgan Hill. The new owner, Rob has a rental in my neighborhood. Super nice guy. 

I invited him to join the group. Maybe he will swing by and say hello.

 

Large Dachshund posted:

What does the suby engine sound like?  If you're gonna pay for something so nearly authentic, then why would you want it to sound and behave like a modern engine?  

Its sounds remarkably close to the VW air cooled engine, of course with no fan & housing noise, plus a water jacketed motor tends to be quieter. I just got a ride in a quiet Subie powered Speedster - it had a very nice muted, understated sound which was very intoxicating and it did not sound like all the fart can loud WRX's out there... IMO! I don't want the fart can Subie boxer sound in a 356 replica. The type of exhaust makes a big difference too, I will guess.

I grabbed this off the net and it explains the different firing orders that achieve basically the same sound effect.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Volkswagen firing order: 1-4-3-2

Subaru firing order:1-3-2-4

While VW and Subaru have different nominal firing orders, they also number their cylinder locations differently. So in fact they are exact mirror images. Their respective crankshafts run in opposite directions likely due to their transmissions mounted fore versus aft.

So here's why they sound distinct...

The key thing to note is that while a boxer-4 does alternate firing fore and aft cylinders, it does not evenly alternate firing between its left and right cylinder banks. It cannot due to the 180 degree orientation of crankshaft pins selected for balance. So instead it must fire twice on one side and then twice on the other. And unlike an inline-4, a boxer-4 must have two separate exhaust manifolds (or expensive bulky header pipes).

One manifold exhausts [fire, fire, wait, wait] while the other side exhausts [wait, wait, fire, fire].

So in addition to the evenly spaced firing of each cylinder (just as from an inline-4) the boxer-4 has exhaust pulses exiting the left and right manifolds at half that frequency. This cadence is perceived as a half-pitch "rumble".

_ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

This might help to make sense of it (the old "picture's worth, etc).  

Here is the Suby cylinder numbering  layout for a 1-3-2-4 firing order:

And here is the same thing for an aircooled VW with a firing order of 1-4-3-2:

 

Here's a Suby crankshaft:

And here's a VW crankshaft:

The cranks are the same, but the firing order is different, as Max said.  I needed the photos to visualize it (my mind deals with images better than text).

All that aside, they are BOTH horizontal boxer engines, they both fire both cylinders on each side in sequence (Hint: Start with cyl#4 on the VW and follow the order and it makes more sense).  In the photos, Suby fires top-to-bottom, left, then top-to-bottom right.  The VW fires bottom-to-top left, then bottom-to-top right.

None of that explains that, while they sound really similar, they still are slightly different.

What did the JPS sell for?

Does anyone know the color of that car? 

Seafoam Green...

Thank you TRP.