JPS SWB Subie

Yeah, I was wondering that, too.......Nothing like sucking pre-warmed air into an intercooler to hope to cool the incoming charge of air.

I've seen several SAS cars with the original Subaru gauge cluster tucked into the front trunk.  I suppose that if you use the original Subaru group of computers (engine, transmission, cockpit management and arbitrator) they'll all expect to see the gauge cluster and the car won't operate without it so tucking them in out-of-sight is easier (and cheaper) than going with a new ECU and harness.  Kludgy, but it works.

Jerry:

Nice to see you're keeping busy.  You've been getting a lot more done on your car than I have on mine!

Yep, intercooler is right behind the rad.  Of course, there is only so much space, but, if performance is one of your goals, that placement is unacceptable.  SAS mounts a 16-gallon fuel cell way in front, so a front-mount rad would be very low and very exposed. 

The  performance Subi guys have lots of raging debates that occur online, much like our particular brand of discussions.  One of the subjects is TMIC vs. FMIC or top mount vs. front mount intercoolers.  Front mount has a slightly longer distance to overcome than top mount (but insignificant when compared to rear or mid engine placement), and is exposed to road hazards, while top mount is as close as you can get to the turbo, but does get heat soaked.  TMIC's in Subis have the added advantage of hood scoops as a ram effect device when at speed.

Air to air radiators, like modern intercoolers, need a source of ambient temp air to work efficiently.  A certain lack of efficiency can be partially overcome by going larger, and by a better shape to the end tanks.  Then, there is pressure differential to consider, bar and plate vs. tube and fin, yada, yada.  Turbos are wonderful devices, but a consequence of their operation is that they heat the air they move.  Cool, dense air gives more power than hot air, hence the need for an intercooler to cool combustion air prior to burning.

All of our cars are a compromise of sorts, and the law of unintended consequences always raises its ugly head.  Would I sacrifice cabin heat and air con for performance?  Fortunately, I haven't had to make that choice yet, but it's a possibility down the road.  The right rear wheel well currently houses the heater/air con unit, with its own small rad.  If I can figure out another place for that, I could split the main radiator/intercooler placement.  I guess if it were easy, everyone would be doing it, eh?

I don't want it to seem like I think SAS is completely without merit.  Much of their product is innovative, but there are some ragged edges that should have been smoothed down before delivery.

Jim,

if your car is like mine and I believe it is close your radiator is on the left side and you intercooler is on the right In the back. Your intercooler has your A/C condenser mounted with it.  The fans on that side come on as follows; when you turn on the A/C the condenser fan come on, when you hit your boost the intercooler fan comes on and I think the A/C fan does too.  Your radiator fans come on; one around 195 and the other around 215 if I remember correctly.

C

Hi Clint,

You may be right about IC placement, but that's not my recollection, and I'm not near the car to check.  If the IC has a fan, that would be surprising.  Tuners will tell you that a push or pull fan is counter productive for an IC, either top mount or front mount, as it would only be useful in stop-n-go conditions, and would actually block air flow when the car is moving.  For added IC efficiency, water or alcohol spray is recommended.

Jim, by reading your posts, I get the idea that you're a guy who likes to do things right.  You have a car that is basically a very good product, but needs a fair amount of 'adjustments' to make into something that you will be happy with.

You'll get there, Jim....keep plugging away.

My goal is to get my car to the point where my wife and I can drive to the Grand Canyon and back, without a mechanical hiccup.  I (and mostly my mechanic) have spent the last year trying to get my car to that point, with a 901 gearbox swap along the way.

I love the SAS mid-mount plan, but the rad/intercooler/air con rad location seems to be problematic. 

I'm sure you'll work it all out.

Meanwhile, I'm planning my trip to the Grand Canyons in late May.

Yeah, you're right, Ron.  For much of my life, I was pretty broke, so had to do things the cheap way.  I'm more comfortable now, and like to fix things once, and fix 'em right.  Unfortunately, as we have all learned with our replicas, that's not as easy as it sounds.  For a conventional street/hot rod, you can cherry pick from lots of sources: buy a good frame, quality suspension, brakes, etc., and the body of your choice, installing whatever crate engine and tranny strikes your fancy.  You know the components parts will all work, since they are so common, and so many other guys can attest to them.

Our cars are much more one-off platforms, especially if you are stretching performance and upping the HP.  Of course, we're not all looking for the same things from our replicas, and that's good.  We all change as we age, also.  I still want to go like stink, but I want more comfort while doing it.  I'll get mine like I want it, and I know you'll do the same. 

I feel better emotionally once I can diagnose the problem.  It's not knowing that makes me uncomfortable.  Once I know what's wrong, then it's (hopefully) just a matter of figuring out if I can fix it, or who I can hire to fix it.  Sometimes it's figuring out what's wrong that takes the most time.  For an overheating problem, there are lots of separate parts that impact coolant temp: water pump , belts, rad and air cooling path, gauges, fan & shroud, t-stat, coolant and additives, and all the hoses, fittings, pipes, etc.

The design engineers at Porsche can remove/modify discrete elements in the above to test efficiency.  For owners like us, we're kind of stuck.  You start with what you think is the most obvious fault, then try to modify other components.  Air flow and its effect on under hood temps are really tough to comprehend and change.  Getting a car to run cool at 60 mph and 70 degrees air temp is not the problem.  High ambient air temp, heavy pedal, then stop n go, that's where the problem is.  I'm too stubborn to quit.  I'll keep fumbling around until the problem is solved, or at least find a compromise I can live with.

Someone asked a while back if a super-efficient rad bringing back coolant at 150f would make the Sube in stock form run (paradoxically) too hot. The answer is: no, not if the stuff hitting the thermostat was the stuff Subaru intended--from the heater hose that's plumbed in just above the stat. THAT's the stuff that might get too cool if you run a long line to a heater and maybe keep the heater fan going.

And, Danny, yeah: there is a "remote stat" fix. I think it's a Mercedes Benz arrangement; Stroud may be more familiar with it.

Finally: yeah: Shiels wires just came in a box, all neatly labeled and with an instruction sheet--$650 very well-spent. This is the closest thing to idiot-proof you can get, and I will have to doof-up mightily to make it not-work.

Watch and be amazed.

I don't own a Subaru flat 4, and I doubt I ever will... but I've said stuff like that before (and then dived in to the deep end of the pool). Taken in that light, this thread should hold no interest to me.

But that is not the case at all-- I can't stop toggling over to see what is new.

These cars, no matter who makes 'em, no matter what is being used as a power-plant, have a lay-out that is both their genius and limitation. There's just no quick and easy to get to reliable power after 130 hp or so, without spending cubic money or re-engineering a lot of systems to do it.

The appeal of the Subaru for a lot of guys has been it's perceived potential to release a lot of cheap and reliable ponies as (opposed to a Type 1). Jim Kelly has done the whole hobby a great service by being honest about the fact that there's no free lunch at the end of this buffet-line either. Power costs money or time, and usually a lot of both.

There's easier ways to get a neat car that goes fast. Any 'merican V8 pony car drills a "serious power" speedster into the ground on a cost/benefit comparison. Gordon has pointed out many, many times that his son (and his son's buds) get crazy power out of Asian "ricers". But it's all apples and oranges-- if you've got the disease, you've got the disease. This is the "Speedster Owners Club", not the "Mustangs Unlimited", or "Evo Revolution". Trying to figure out how to make something else work in the engine bay is trial and error, and I'm happy to see guys dedicated to working it out.

Subaru flat 4 is probably the future of this hobby, but there are packaging obstacles that are still being thought through. I'm glad for guys like Jim, and David Stroud, and Ed who bring different perspectives and backgrounds to the table to brainstorm about how to resolve them.

The discussion has been civil-- the observations on why we do what we do, invaluable. To me, this is the very best of what goes on here.

Well said, as usual, Stan!! ^^

I owned two Subys, a 1990 Legacy wagon which I stripped motor and harness(total tin can POS body) but great EJ22 powerplant. The engine now resides in my friend Giacomo's Vanagom Westfalia, replacing the worn out and ill-designed OE engine.

The second was a 1998 Legacy GT wagon, still a tin can but less so, better ride, better handling, awesome 5 speed, and a veritable workhorse. Drivetrain was great. Rear ended, totaled.

I have since moved on to a Passat(deer hit, totaled), now an Audi Allroad, all wagons, I guess I'm a wagon guy, and AWD to boot!

The Subaru flat 4 is a very good design, and sneakily perfect for Speedster/Spyder applications. Right layout, right size, good design, good power, cheap and readily available. ALL WINS. You'll get it, Jim Kelly, keep plugging!

I still want to get a Vintage(Spyders) pre-A coupe body and build a custom mid-engine Suby chassis, and use the Suby trans as well. Kind of out-SAS SAS, if you get my meaning. I wonder how long it would take me to build one, by myself, in my garage? And work the bugs out!

Move down here and I'll help ya with it, Danny.  That sounds like fun! 

...and on the other side of the fence...

I'm fortunate to be able to drive my '95 VS year-round, and I do. As my daily driver and road-trip warrior (CA, OR, AZ, NV, CO), I've logged 95,000 miles relatively trouble-free and with no angst.  Get in, turn the key, drive away....get home, park, stare at car and reflect on another bitchen day of cruising.

If at some point my 1835 dual-Kadron motor grenades, I'll replace it with same engine without costing $$$$$$. No muss, no fuss.

I enjoy reading how my buddies on this site personalize their replicars, and I definitely learn something new each time I visit.

The 'Madness'....ain't it grand? 

Stan:  (and others)

I think we're getting closer to ironing out the cooling bugs with this type of conversion, but maybe not yet fully there.  A lot of it has to do with using a car body style that was never intended to have water radiators anywhere on it.  That's a tough place to start from, but we have quite a few Suby conversions that seem to be running OK, so that's what I mean by being close.

Even in the Mitsubishi "Diamond Star Motors" world, there is no free lunch.

I would guestimate that for every additional 100hp Chris and his friends eked out of their engines, it cost about $1,500-$2,000 for the go-fast parts (sound familiar?).  There was a lot of horse-trading for used speed parts and that might help control costs, but racing in almost any form costs a lot of money.

His was a drag racer, so cooling requirements were minimal.  His friend had an Eclipse with even more power that ran road courses and the cooling components alone were probably well over $2,000.

  Chris drew the line when he trapped below eleven seconds (140mph) because to get to the next class would have cost $10K-$15K more.  Now, with two kids in car seats, he drives an Audi A4 or his wife's Jeep (2 car seats in each).  Funny how life is......

Gordon,  my brutha! You & I have lived diverse lives full of twists and turns, in the course of which we both learned that 'life is what happens to you while you're making other plans'! 

Then 'Welcome To The Madness' happens! 

Jim-

I've often thought you were the smartest guy in the room to just accept your car the way it is, happily motor along with 80-90 hp or so, and drive it wherever you want.

Gordon-

Oh, that 100 additional HP could be purchased for $2000. After 130 or so, they cost about $50 per. After 150 or so, they cost more than $100 per. After 180 or so, the curve pretty much goes straight up.

Getting 200 hp out of a Type 1 costs about $8000- 10,000. Getting 200 RELIABLE hp might not be available at any price.

I'll let you know.

I got under the car today with a stethescope and its not the fan i was hearing-having just got the car I wasnt sure how loud the fan should sound so I turned the adjustor screw on the relay and then the fan came on and it is much louder then what i thought was the fan--so its the fuel pump Im hearing- dont notice it while driving but when I come to a stop I hear the pump running--really didnt notice it at all the first day out with the car--is it normal to hear the fuel pump running or should it be pretty much to quiet to hear--

Jerry,

Do you know what fuel pump you have?  We run Peerless pumps on Suby cars (Outfront does too, so I assume that is what you have).  They are normally dead quiet unless they run unrestricted (bad regulator) and then they howl like crazy.

Don't mean to "gild the lily" or in this case the Guamanian, but Jim is often the voice of sanity, serenity, and intelligence here. Stan called it.

Jim, you seem to have more fun than many of us without all the angst. I admire that more than you can know. 

the pumps not howling loudly just a low electrical sound that you really only hear when you come to a stop--the reason im concerned is because the first 150 miles I didnt hear it .

Peerless come in a rubber "case" that really do a good job isolating them from the chassis (or whatever mounting point is used) and reducing/eliminating noise.  They can be removed from this case if size is an issue.  Maybe it is touching something slightly?

I know the Weber and Carter pumps get louder if they have a restriction (i.e. clogged fuel filter) or if they have a feed issue (i.e. clogged tank outlet) 

I almost had BMW inline (external) stat working two weeks ago on the hot side of the coolant manifold. Couldn't get the bypass hooked up right in time to travel.Otherwise, default to stock setup with Sheils's adapter.

Jerry,

I have an electric pump in mine and you can hear it if you listen, especially when the key is turned and before the engine starts- sort of a hum or small electrical motor.   You're probably just becoming more accustomed to the car and noticing  the nuances of it.