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I may take the plunge, and there are a few nice choices in my price range, and state. Are there any major differences between these two makes that I need to know about? I am interested in two cars specifically, one of each make. The JPS is a 1776cc and the Vintage is a 1915cc. I have access to an amazing old school porsche/VW mechanic so aside from that, what else am I looking for beside 3.88 gears etc..? Fit and finish, frame reinforcement, wiring, insurance, support, and so on are of specific interest.

1957 Vintage Speedsters(Speedster)

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I may take the plunge, and there are a few nice choices in my price range, and state. Are there any major differences between these two makes that I need to know about? I am interested in two cars specifically, one of each make. The JPS is a 1776cc and the Vintage is a 1915cc. I have access to an amazing old school porsche/VW mechanic so aside from that, what else am I looking for beside 3.88 gears etc..? Fit and finish, frame reinforcement, wiring, insurance, support, and so on are of specific interest.
Nobody here really wants to talk badly about the people who built their cars, especially if they still need the connection for customer service or support. Many of those initial relationships transcend the purchase, and can last a very, very long time.

Many of us count our builders as personal friends also (regardless of whose car you're buying, you're going to develop a similar relationship), and Speedster folks just aren't likely to throw a legitimate builder under the bus for any reason -- but this is business, and you're about to spend some money.

Since I had a hand in making my car, I feel like I can say comfortably that the more customized your car is, the more it will need to be sorted out after you buy it. Since you seem to be in the 'used' market, I'd say you're probably looking at two cars which have been sorted out already.

If you can, take your mechanic with you to have a look at each.

Since I don't have a dog in the fight, I'll say guys in California seem to have better luck with initial sorting and teething problems in JPS cars than folks out here in the east do, and Vintage owners have great luck wherever they live.

Wiring in the JPS cars I've wrenched on has presented neatly, but hasn't always worked well. It has been easy to fix, and the wiring has been easy to get to. The Vintage cars have had harnesses which do what they're advertised to do from the first day.

Fit hasn't been the same from one to the next in JPS cars, either. Different from finish, it seems the JPS assembly cuts the invisible corners. The VW half of the car is what it is, and the box tube part is brilliant. The pans are terrific, the shifting linkage clicks and the mechanical parts are much, much better than I could do myself. JPS has absolutely got four-wheel discs figured out, but seems to have difficulty with smaller mechanical bits.

By way of comparison, Vintage is relatively simple in their approach -- and theIr cars reflect that. They're reliable out of the chute, seems like, and mostly Vee Dub. I haven't ever worked on a Vintage; every one I've seen has been running already.

JPS used to use materials I wouldn't use for engine tins and splash protection under the car, but only for aesthetic reasons -- and most likely to keep fabrication costs down. I wouldn't presume to say whether or not that's the case now, but the examples which made it out our way had some wood-textured aluminum siding inside the engine compartment. Easy enough to replace, and not a big deal. Functionally, it works just fine.

All that out of the way, I really like the finish on a JPS. They aren't IM, but they're not far off from something you'd think you would see parked indoors at a look-but-don't-touch car show. The color options on a JPS seem to flow together like you'd want them to, and I wouldn't ever get tired of looking at the examples I've seen.

Once you get past the teething issues, a JPS could be a good choice. If you want to get in and drive to the moon and back, maybe at the expense of having a VW chassis, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a VS.

You're certainly better off to ask the person who owns one, as they used to say, and attending one of these crazy get-togethers is the best way to go.

Or, have a pre-purchase inspection done by someone who lives close to where the cars are that you're interested in. If one of them is in the Baltimore area, for example, I'd be happy to go and have a look for you. Many others here would do the same. It's certainly possible we're already familiar with the car you're looking at.

Good luck with your decision!


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I, too, would stress tha tthe best way to see all of the manufacturer's cars in one place and to talk with the owners in a more private manner is at one of the gatherings; West Coast (Pismo Beach) or East Coast (Carlisle, PA or the local gatherings in the fall in PA or Asheville, NC). Then you'll be able to see and talk about the differences between the various manufactured or home-built cars.

Beyond that, the best way to get into this for the first time is with a well-sorted-out used car, and some of us are always ready to help you look at and decide on a good one. We're also more willing to be candid off-line from a public forum like this one.

Gordon
The Speedstah guy from Beaufort
The Carlisle show and gathering is IMHO the best place for direct research. Not only can you look at, sit in, and maybe even drive cars of various manufacturers, you can actually talk to several of the builders. Adding to that is the fact that the trip is a lot of fun. If you are in the eastern half of the country, I strongly recommend coming. Talking directly to owners is more likely to get you some blatant opinions than asking here, as most of us try not to blast another person's car in such a public forum. Once you have all of the opinions, you can judge which ones to give credence to.
I'm a whole lot closer to Pismo (3 hours), and love going there anyways. I will have to check my summer calendar and see if I can make that event. Anyone know if the legroom in the various makes is identical? I'm only about 6'1" but it is mostly in my legs. I have been looking at Caterhams, Birkins, Westfields etc.. (Lotus 7 remakes), but many are simply too small for me. There are some larger variants but you pay a real premium. One of the things I like about the speedster replica's is the easy of CA registration. I want to avoid dealing with the SB100 process.
Only home-built CMC's and cars from Vintage may be registered as earlier VW's, since they retain the original VW serial number stamped into the chassis (I don't believe JPS retains this valuable number, but I'm not sure whether he does or not). If you don't have the early VIN then you have to go through the SB100 stand-in-line-and-hope process.

There seem to be quite a number of low-mileage California cars showing up in the classifieds - many of them Vintage cars. People buy them expecting to get something as refined and reliable (and modern) as a Mazda Miata and then are disapointed with reality and sell them. LOTS of cars under 3000 miles and less then 3 years old come up all the time on here and often re-sell to others who understand what they're getting and those buyers seem to keep them much longer..... Jack Crosby and his Vintage are a good example.
Steve,

Purchased a used 05 JPS. It does register with the pan vin. Wiring is not the best, but all else is good. Caution lies in the smaller things that you can't see initially. Having said that, those items can be redone rather easily. Have no personal experience with VS, but have purchased a few after mkt items from them and their service, etc., is top notch. The JPS pan could have been shortened with higher quality in mind, but really doesn't impact anything except the view of it. Good Luck!

Bob

I'll step up on this one. "Green Coupe" was a one-time abberation
and JPS should not be judged on this one single issue. Besides, why dredge up a 3 year old deal. That in in itself is a good reccomendation if you have to go all the way back 3 years to find some issue. I'll bet everyone has had a blooper within the last 3 years ---and that counts GM and the rest of them. JPS owners love their cars almost without exception.

Just do what was suggested earlier--so a search for JPS cars.

Jim--a nice thoughtful post---we need more like that. It was even helpful--what a concept.

In the interest of a fair discussion, Jack, both the good and the bad should be presented. The bad, even the terribly bad, has the potential to be mitigated and actually become a "good" if handled by the vendor properly.

Without question, every builder has a car that is an exception to their work. It is not that car by in means, that determines the quality of the builder. It is the quality of the majority of the cars and the way that the vendor corrects the inevitable shortages.

To the end of a balanced discussion "green coupe" is fair reading. Less than pleasant, but fair.

angela

I just couldn't disagree more. I imagine he would have found the thread himself, but to direct everyone to a 3 year old imbroglio seems unfair to me. What was the point?

I drive a Vintage so I'm not "sticking up" for JPS because that's what I drive but I have seen only great praise for JPS cars by owners in the past three years.

Please know I respect your opinion but the post seemed harsh.



way to go GERD -- good one there.

I own a JPS (as does GERD) and find it the coolest car I have ever owned, bar none. Had two real 356 coupes back in the day, and they were pretty cool too, esp'y the S-90, but they were, well, coupes at 1600 cc. My Speedster has only an "emergency covering" for a top, which stays down most of the time, as was intended. It also has 2332 cc and that is pretty cool too. Includes the JPS tube frame coupled to the VW rear mounts, IRS, four-wheel disc brakes, sway bars and a beautiful paint job, plus my choice for leather and color inside. And it does carry the VW VIN, and is so registered in MD. You get John (or any of the builders) to make a car for you, you get what you want/can afford wrt options, colors, etc. yes, my car was involved to some degree in the Green Coupe imbroglio (what does that word mean??) as the two were manufactured at about the same time and delivered east on the same truck. [Recall that the Green Coupe was like serial number 002 of the JPS coupe production line and was rather unique in the replica world at the time.] I too had several "sorting" issues w/ my car that I ultimatley counted down to very hasty final prep at JPS. There were extenuating circumstances afoot at JPS during that time, and I never got the whole story about what went down, exactly, but my car was delivered to me essentaly "out of the box", w/ little to no sorting done prior to shipment. I'm not sure the engine had more than four miles on it when I got it, and so there were some things that needed to be set right. there were a few items not directly at John's feet, like a cracked carb body and an oil leaking engine case. All were fixed. And John tended to those fixes by supplying information and replacement parts as needed. As I am a bit of a wrench, I tended to the wrenching, and was not put out to do so. I learned a great deal about my car thereby, and while the frustration level got extreme on a few occasions, perseverence won out, and the car runs and looks very nice now. Any wiring trouble was due to my own lack of attention paid. it would have been nice if the wires were color coded, but alas, JPS uses red, black and white wires for everything, and that is the way it goes. That said, these cars are pretty simple, and the wiring is not all that complex.

So I endorse JPS cars as great replicas at a very reasonable price -- you get a lot of bang for the buck. John's cars can be fitted out to be a lot of different things wrt fit/finish/paint/HP/running gear and the like. Driving a Speedster is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on, so no matter who built it, you should join the madness and get behind the wheel. And to be fair to GERD, I suppsoe you can drive it naked if you want to.
When I had the wishbone front end wrenched by Eyeball I had occasion to visit many other aspects of the JPS build. Wiring was shabby at best. Shortening of the pan could have been smoother(cleaner). Having said all that I love the car. As far as John and his sometimes cantankerous demeanor, the fit and finish of the balance of the car is good. Maybe he f'ed up on the green one. I wasn't there. But I believe Jack is on the money. Don't know you well, Jack. But I like the positive tone of your post. Hope to see you in Pismo.

Bob
Thanks, Bob.

We made the Morro bay event last year--actually on this very day Alice and I were on I-40 between Gallup and Amarillo--great times, great folks and so many cars to drool over. Since then we have been traveling so much that I am way behind on business and have to skip Pismo this year. We are hoping for 2012 though. I believe we will have two others to caravan with then too.

I have JPS coupe #3 built after the said green coupe. Mine is running really well now. Not so much when I first got it. However, John has been very helpful sorting my car. He was very helpful when my car caught fire on it's first trip to Morro in 2008. In my book he went beyond call for duty. No major car manufacturer will tow the car back a few hundred miles and take care the rest.

I have no experience about VS, but all I have heard is that everybody that has them loved it

I think the key of enjoying these car is knowing what you want and making sure you don't expect it to be like modern cars, they are not. It will also help if you like to tinker with your car, however, it is not a requirement, just look at Gerd & Vince they don't work on their cars, but they still love theirs.

Just go to Pismo and meet these owners and you can see the different cars. Although they all look like speedsters, each one is different.

Good luck
"He was very helpful when my car caught fire on it's first trip to Morro in 2008."

Eddy, I'm very glad you were okay, and very, very happy to hear that JPS stood by you when that happened. All kidding aside, that could have been "as-is, no warranty," given the nature of these cars.
Gee, did the fuel hose rub against the fan? I mean, hello, we had to fix that on the green coupe! It was a couple minutes away from a full-on fire when we removed that hose! I know things do happen that are nobody's fault, but this seems to be a recurring theme here. Just beware is all.

Either way, it all comes down to location. If you live near a builder, they will be more responsive to you. There are exceptions, that being Kirk and Mary, Henry, and of course the Hines. The others it seems CAN be responsive if far away, sometimes not.

I bought my Spyder kit from Greg at Vintage. I love the car, but it was a very frustrating time to not get it when promised, in a written contract. Six to nine months took fifteen.........
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