Just Saying Hi...

*LongFella posted:

 

Nobody answered the question: When the keyed power is on, the ohm reading is VERY high... why?

Shouldn't the ohm reading stay the same and be in the range for the gauge to properly place the needle where it needs to be based on the float position? The ohm reading goes extremely high and out of the range of the gauge 0-75 ohms...

The question could have been answered - I might have missed it... 

Actually, we did answer the question: me, Gordon, and Mitch.

You can't read resistance (ohms) with power applied. The meter provides it's own power source to check resistance, and you're contaminating the signal with power from another source.

Back in the day, that would fry your meter. Now it just gives you a false reading.

I figured I missed it 

Thanks!

I've printed out what you guys wrote and will work through it like a check list to continuing testing.

Onward! ! !

Not Speedster specific, but a lot of fun, nonetheless, and I'm in a "Goofy" mood:

https://youtu.be/SZ0zTjjnaRs

Gordon Nichols posted:

Not Speedster specific, but a lot of fun, nonetheless, and I'm in a "Goofy" mood:

https://youtu.be/SZ0zTjjnaRs

LOL! And I was just dancing to the "Hot Dog Dance" from the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse show with my daughter before heading to work this morning

Ground the sender correctly and watch the magic happen.

(And thank the good lord you don't have to mess with an "exciter")

edsnova posted:

Ground the sender correctly and watch the magic happen.

(And thank the good lord you don't have to mess with an "exciter")

Hear here.

edsnova posted:

Ground the sender correctly and watch the magic happen.

(And thank the good lord you don't have to mess with an "exciter")

Does it have to be a chassis ground spot or can it be the negative battery terminal?

One test I completed:

I made two extra ground wires. One goes from the sending unit to the negative terminal on the battery. The second goes from the negative terminal on the battery to the back of the gauge where the antenna looking symbol is for the fuel gauge ground goes.... NO needle movement at all...

Lfepardo posted:

Just A thought, based on my experience with vdo gauges original and repo + senders in 2015.

- gauge and sender need to be matched/ calibrated to read correctly.

- my replica gauges where calibrated to read empty at 10ohm, full at 75ohm.  The VDO sender installed (provided by VS when they build the car) was the same 10ohm empty, 75ohm full.  All was good at the beginning.

- when I installed original/ refurbished 356 gauges everything read backwards... Turns out Gauge was calibrated to 75ohm empty, 5ohm full ( it's what Palo Alto/VDO typically does unless they are told otherwise or you ask them to match it to a specific sender when restoring the gauges ).

- Harmut who had rebuilt my gauges suggested I either bend the float shaft 180deg of  my exhisting sender to reverse the empty/full or replace sender.... As it would be much cheaper to replace than shipping to CA and re-calibrating the original gauges.

so I searched the Internet, contacted VDO and bingo... I was educated, and I now have two senders that have the SAME VDO part number but have inverted calibrations....  How you may ask?... Modern manufacturing inconsistencies?

1) ---vdo sender: 221012- 75ohm empty- 10ohm full

https://www.summitracing.com/p...anner=MobileSwitchNo

1) -vdo sender: 221012- 10ohm empty- 75ohm full... ( actually the unit I received bench tested at 65ohm full... But close enough.)

https://www2.cip1.com/ProductD...Code=VDO%2D221%2D012

cant explain the inconsistency... I actually ordered both after both shops confirmed they did their own bench testing.... And then I tested my self.  Shure enough same part number opposite resistance ranges.   Probably built in different Chinese manufacturing plants ;-)

The engineer in me wanted to make sense of it... But I could not.... But it fixed my problem for under 30$.

also... Be careful when testing your gauge... A few seconds of power on the bench and you can fry the electronics.   Ask me how I know ?

good luck

I'm going to try this too...

I'll find a different ohm rated fuel sender and see if that works. I believe mine is a 10ohm full and 75ohm empty (based on my previous tests). I'll find a 75ohm empty and 10ohm full. Maybe I get lucky and find out my gauge was wired backwards. It's possible, right?

I remember when I first started (and had fuel in the tank) the gauge needle moved. It wasn't reading correct based on the amount of fuel I had in the tank. When I started down this rabbit hole, I realized the fuel sending wire and ground wire on the back of the combo gauge where in the wrong spot (fuel sender wire to ground spot and ground wire to fuel sender spot)... For some reason I must of thought "G" was for ground and not the little antenna thing (see... total noob)...

I'll figure this out...

Could the coil in the temp gauge be fried?  When installing one of my freshly refurbished original VdO's, I accidentally fried mine by getting the G and ground wires crossed... The needle moved, then a few seconds later it didn't, and that was it... Dead a a door knob... My combi gauge actually visited the Palo Alto Speedometer facilitiey 2 times after spending 9 months there being refurbished.   Expensive wiring lessons learned.  Electrical work is definatelly my Achilles heel!

are you driving distance from either North Hollywood Speedometer or Palo Alto speedometer shop? Give them a ring see if they would test the gauge if you walk in the part.  May be worth the shop visit to have them test the sender and gauge while you wait, and before spending any $$ on replacement parts/shiping.

Just a thought.  Good luck!

The temp gauge is still working, so I don't believe it is fried.

I'll keep testing, but it might get to the point where I send the combo gauge and fuel sender back to Carey at Beck to look at. The gauges are brand new VDO from his shop and I believe are set to match the vw fuel sender...

I shouldn't need/have to drive all over the place and pay to have a fuel gauge work correctly (sorry, my customer service expectations are coming out now).

Nonetheless, I'll keep testing before reaching out to Carey.

*LongFella posted:

edsnova posted:

Ground the sender correctly and watch the magic happen.

(And thank the good lord you don't have to mess with an "exciter")

Does it have to be a chassis ground spot or can it be the negative battery terminal?

One test I completed:

I made two extra ground wires. One goes from the sending unit to the negative terminal on the battery. The second goes from the negative terminal on the battery to the back of the gauge where the antenna looking symbol is for the fuel gauge ground goes.... NO needle movement at all...

In addition to the test above, I checked all grounds by using the "beep" continuity test on my multimeter and everything checked out. I double checked the ohm reading at the fuel sender and ohm reading at the back of the gauge (with power off) and they match (15.3ohms). If the gauge reads 10ohms as empty, well the gauge is reading right... LOL!

I still have my checklist printed from Stan and folks... just didn't have much time last night as the wifey was teaching and I was dancing to the "Hot Dog Dance" from the mickey mouse clubhouse cartoon with my princess... priorities

Yes, the movement in the gauges is meant to match that specific sending unit.

The movement for the fuel gauge and the movement for the temp gauge are independent of each other, and it is possible for one to get fried/go bad without hurting the other.

Happy to bench test both items for you and replace if faulty.

chines1 posted:

Yes, the movement in the gauges is meant to match that specific sending unit.

The movement for the fuel gauge and the movement for the temp gauge are independent of each other, and it is possible for one to get fried/go bad without hurting the other.

Happy to bench test both items for you and replace if faulty.

Thanks, Carey!

I might be at that point in sending the combo gauge and fuel sender back your way... I hate throwing in the towel though

Am I missing something ...Have you tried running a positive from the battery directly to the guage then ground from battery to sending unit then  right to the guage  ? 

I mean that bypasses all possible problems and in a sense bench tests it 

To bench test it here, we'd simply put it to our 12v power source and run only the 12v, ground, and signal wires at the gauge, connected to the sending unit.

You can do the same with a battery as Ray mentions.

IaM-Ray posted:

Am I missing something ...Have you tried running a positive from the battery directly to the guage then ground from battery to sending unit then  right to the guage  ? 

I mean that bypasses all possible problems and in a sense bench tests it 

 

Haven't done that test, but I will tonight. I did the ground wire test...

I'm also going to get a pot and test the gauge.

I'm on a mission damn it ! ! ! 

I think it is time to give Carey a call... 

Here is the latest rounds of test and I was REALLY hoping to solve this, but I have a feeling the gauge missed its QA check.

I went to Radioshack and bought a "pot" like some suggested. I was on a mission last night! When I finally gave up, I went upstairs and my wife thought I fell asleep in the garage. LOL! Needless to say, I'm exhausted this morning...

Here are the tests I did:

- I took the combo gauge out. Nothing connected. Tested the the "G" and "antenna ground spot" with the ohm reader (no power connected). It read 28.8ohms. Weird...

- Next test had multiple steps:

- I took out the "pot" and connected the multimeter to the center tab and outside tab. I turned the dial to get a solid 11.0ohm reading. My pot has a range from 0-1000, so it was difficult to even get that reading.

- After the "pot" was set, I connected a jumper wire from the outside tab I used to set the "pot" ohm reading to the "antenna ground spot" on the gauge. I connected the center tab on the "pot" to the "G" on the gauge.

- I connected a jumper wire from the outside tab on the "pot" I used for the "antenna ground spot" to the negative terminal on the battery.

- I connected 12v power straight from the battery (I bought alligator clips and made a few jumper cables) to the "+" on the gauge.

...NO needle movement...

- Next, I turned the "pot" dial to DECREASE the ohms from 11.0 to around 6.0ohms (I learned the direction I needed to turn when I set the "pot" to 11.0ohms in the beginning). This put the needle in the "FULL" position. *Please note: every time I turned the "pot" I would disconnected everything and use the multimeter to test the "pot" and determine the ohms. I remember you guys saying that nothing needs to be connected or it will throw the reading off*

- I connected everything back up after determining it was 6.0ohms and logic would tell you I should turn the "pot" to increase the ohms to get to empty... NOPE! The only way to get the fuel gauge to show empty was to continue to decrease the number... my "pot" only goes to 0.6ohms (after testing its range) and that would show the fuel gauge at half full. I never got it to show empty...

If the gauge was calibrated correctly, it should read 10ohms full and 75ohms empty. My gauge was showing 6.0ohms full and XXohms empty (I couldn't get it to show empty).

With all that said, I'll give Carey a call and get some additional thoughts on next steps.

Man, I really wanted to solve this and not have to deal with gauges going back-and-forth. That just means no driving Eleanor 

At least I can say I tried. Remember, it is the journey that's the best part

I had a great conversation with Carey this morning about everything. I hope to meet him one day

He's planning to do a bench test on another combo gauge for comparison, but my gut tells me the gauge isn't working as it should. In any case, we will figure out what the next steps are.

This was all a GREAT learning experience! Thanks for all the help too!

Come to Carlisle and you can meet him there.

This is like a soap opera with the narrator droning in the background:

Narrator - What will happen tonight?  Will Brian resolve the resistance he's experiencing with his fuel sender?  Or will the fuel sender cause him to experience real madness and not The Madness which welcomed him so long ago?  Will Brian find out it's just a faulty gauge or a plot to keep him from finishing Elanor?

Find out tonight on, "As the Ohms Resist"

HAHA!  

Lane Anderson posted:

Come to Carlisle and you can meet him there.

I wish! It's not in the cards this year, but I will make it out there.

I'm just waiting to hear back from Carey now.

I even bought various ohm resisters too (10ohm and 68ohm) if the "pot" thing didn't work for some reason.

I told you guys - I was on a mission to figure this out ! ! !

Once the gauge is squared away, I'll finish sealing the engine bay compartment, complete the undercoating areas I missed, and start mapping out the new engine build... all while putting wonderful miles on the road

The 1915cc in there now is temporary. I wanted to get Eleanor on the road and get everything sorted out... then I'll start the engine build that will replace the 1915cc...

+cough*2270 Type 4*cough*

I have a 2332 with Nic's cylinders and a whole lot of other goodies to the tune of $12- $14k in the motor. Where were  you when I was considering selling it ?  .... Stan's having the big one reading this :~)

Lfepardo posted:

Sorry for the confusion... Thought the problem was the gauge reading opposite to the sender readings.

for the 2 months it took me to sort things out, I just drove and used an old school wood ruler to gauge how much gas I had in the tank before drives ;-)..... 

wishing you miles and smiles of happy driving...  Best part is sharing the ride with our little mechanics

cheers

It always helps to have a good lookin' "Babe" sittin' next to you cruising the PCH... :-)

If you have a trip odometer in your speedo, just drive so many miles and then go fill up.  The ruler thing can get tiresome.  And all this electrical BS can be maddening to say the least.  More to the point: you REALLY need to get your priorities lined up right and get your ass to Carlisle THIS year.  I promise you it will be worth your while.

Alan's 2332:  maybe I should get this as a "spare"?

EL;

A   $12K spare?  

Alan Merklin posted:

I have a 2332 with Nic's cylinders and a whole lot of other goodies to the tune of $12- $14k in the motor. Where were  you when I was considering selling it ?  .... Stan's having the big one reading this :~)

And so am I! Nic's as in real LN Engineering Nickies? Tell us more _{(and Kelly- if Alan will sell it to you this might be quite the beast!!!)}

A Nickies engine- Alan, DETAILS PLEASE!!!!

2332 Specs........The motor  with the Raby DTM painted to match the car is ready to go back in the project Outlaw.                                                                                                        As Hazel the maid would say:  "It's go'n to be a doozie Mr. Baxter"

___________________________________________________________________________________

Weber 86A Cam.

Dual Weber 48mm carbs

All engine steel parts cryogenic treated including cam, crank, all valve springs, all head bolts, rods, rod bolts piston wrist pins

Ported CB Performance Competition Eliminator heads, combustion chamber is ceramic coated as are  valves and exhaust ports. Dual springs, with Pauter billet roller rocker arms 1.4:1 ratio, roller tips also. 

JE Pistons forged dish tops (10cc dish) with ceramic coated tops and graphite coated skirts

Nikasil 94 mm cylinders by LN engineering

Ceramic lifters

H Rods, CB Performance  5.7” length

Aluminum pushrods,  aircooled.net double tapered

Serpentine belt drive

CB Performance 7mm high deck aluminum super case built for 94mm cylinders, with 10mm case savers and sand seal

ARP head bolts and rod bolts etc.10mm

Extra capacity oil pump (36mm) and bypass oil pump cover, Aircooled.net

DTM cooling shroud

CB alternator with welded fan

CB Performance straight cut steel cam drive gears

Rod bearings Chevy 2”

4340 crankshaft from CB Performance nitrated with Chevy rod journals

Cam bearings, Gene Berg, dual thrust

Flywheel is forged steel. Lightened, from CB Performance

Starter is new Hi Torque, CB Performance

Exhaust is stainless steel 48mm Python by CSP brand new with J tubes also 48mm

CSP center pull carb linkage

The bearings are all Polydyne coated, the crank, case, and rods are all treated/coated with Oil Shed

The clutch is a new Kennedy Stage 2.

 Accu-sump to insure oil at higher RPM’s . The way the motor is set up, it's estimated to have in the neighborhood of 220 hp.

External oil filter an a addition 96 row fan forced cooler plumbed with AN braided stainless hoses and fittings, it also currently has a 914 oil cooler under the RAT DTM .

      ..........and now back to Longfella's thread~

Alan Merklin posted:

 

Nikasil 94 mm cylinders by LN engineering

Ceramic lifters

 

Two big details here:

1) LN Nickies

2) Ceramic lifters

I caught all that when Jim had it listed. The cylinders are $4K, and the lifters are unobtainium. I had a guy offer me 8 used ceramic lifters last year... for $1400. I briefly considered it.

The DTM shroud is $600 now. The list goes on and on.

This thread is 30 pages long, and the last several have been about a gas gauge. We can drift a bit on this, and get back to Brian's really cool car when he gets it figured out.

Now that is an engine..........

Alan Merklin posted:

I have a 2332 with Nic's cylinders and a whole lot of other goodies to the tune of $12- $14k in the motor. Where were  you when I was considering selling it ?  .... Stan's having the big one reading this :~)

I thought LONG and hard on that, but I couldn't come up with the $$$. I didn't want to borrow against or tap into the savings. I'm already at my budget for this build...

Alan Merklin posted:

2332 Specs........The motor  with the Raby DTM painted to match the car is ready to go back in the project Outlaw.                                                                                                        As Hazel the maid would say:  "It's go'n to be a doozie Mr. Baxter"

___________________________________________________________________________________

Weber 86A Cam.

Dual Weber 48mm carbs

All engine steel parts cryogenic treated including cam, crank, all valve springs, all head bolts, rods, rod bolts piston wrist pins

Ported CB Performance Competition Eliminator heads, combustion chamber is ceramic coated as are  valves and exhaust ports. Dual springs, with Pauter billet roller rocker arms 1.4:1 ratio, roller tips also. 

JE Pistons forged dish tops (10cc dish) with ceramic coated tops and graphite coated skirts

Nikasil 94 mm cylinders by LN engineering

Ceramic lifters

H Rods, CB Performance  5.7” length

Aluminum pushrods,  aircooled.net double tapered

Serpentine belt drive

CB Performance 7mm high deck aluminum super case built for 94mm cylinders, with 10mm case savers and sand seal

ARP head bolts and rod bolts etc.10mm

Extra capacity oil pump (36mm) and bypass oil pump cover, Aircooled.net

DTM cooling shroud

CB alternator with welded fan

CB Performance straight cut steel cam drive gears

Rod bearings Chevy 2”

4340 crankshaft from CB Performance nitrated with Chevy rod journals

Cam bearings, Gene Berg, dual thrust

Flywheel is forged steel. Lightened, from CB Performance

Starter is new Hi Torque, CB Performance

Exhaust is stainless steel 48mm Python by CSP brand new with J tubes also 48mm

CSP center pull carb linkage

The bearings are all Polydyne coated, the crank, case, and rods are all treated/coated with Oil Shed

The clutch is a new Kennedy Stage 2.

 Accu-sump to insure oil at higher RPM’s . The way the motor is set up, it's estimated to have in the neighborhood of 220 hp.

External oil filter an a addition 96 row fan forced cooler plumbed with AN braided stainless hoses and fittings, it also currently has a 914 oil cooler under the RAT DTM .

      ..........and now back to Longfella's thread~

Maybe I should talk to the wifey again... WOW! 

Quick update on the gauge:

Carey and the Beck Team are AWESOME!

Their testing (which was done the same as mine) came back with different results. With that said, they will be sending me out a new combo gauge and fuel sending unit (the same ones they tested today and confirmed to work). They even made a COOL video of their bench testing - that's awesome customer service!

Thank you @chines1 ! ! ! You rock ! ! !

Awesome is an UNDERSTATEMENT regarding Carey.  This guy goes way out on a limb to help folks.  Thanks from us, Carey!!

x2 on Carey and Company.  He's the kind of person that really helps keep this hobby alive.

Here's my beautiful princess that means the world to me. This was after my last cruise along PCH. She insisted on parking Eleanor; Goofy had to ride along too