3.10, 2.86, 1.21, .89 with 3:44 R&P - What works for me may not work for you. I arrived at these ratios after careful consideration of my driving style.
Rusty S posted:3.10, 2.86, 1.21, .89 with 3:44 R&P
Thanks Rusty.
So is mine ok with rations of 3.10, 1.93, 1.21, 0.82 ??
Rusty S posted:Well I say if you're going to get into the engine you may as well have Greg go over gear ratios with you. I cannot tell you how much better 1st , 2nd, and 3rd feel after my upgrade. That was worth every penny to me.
That will be way later down the road. I'm at my budget for this build. The engine work will put me slightly over and I'll need approval from the CEO aka wifey...
Regarding gear ratios and 5 speeds - don't do it. Torque and gear ratios area gateway drug.
I started down that road in November/December of 2015. Still waiting on a part from Berg. 
On the other hand... if you think about it... I've stretched the purchase price out over 16 months... almost affordable.
If I could do one thing over? I'd have had the car painted instead of worrying about the rpm drop between gears. It's not like we're race car drivers, Pikes Peak competitors, or coast to coast rally drivers. For most of us these are part time cars that spend most of their time in traffic.
I'm going to be the first person in line to tell you that your money is better spend someplace else.
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Regarding "coast to coast rally driving": getting the final drive right (be it 4th ot 5th) is way more important than how many steps there are along the way. However, it's the other 99.9% of the time you use your car where that 5th gear makes the whole thing much more enjoyable.
I've got a freak-load in an engine and 4 speed. If I had the same fun-bucket again, I'd divy it up with more to the transaxle and less to the engine. Terry Nuckels should be the model for how to do this the right way.
Cliff wrote: "So is mine ok with rations of 3.10, 1.93, 1.21, 0.82 ??"
Well, that depends. What is the ring and pinion ratio? Makes a big difference.
Also, the size and type of the engine (aircooled or Suby), the cam grind, and what your torque band looks like. When you upshift, the aim is to drop your RPM's to the bottom 1/4'th of your torque band, or thereabouts, so you stay in the power band and don't "bog" on shifts. That's why 5-speeds are "better", if 5'th is roughly the original overdrive 4'th but the other four gears are spaced closer together to keep you closer to the center of the torque curve.
Here's a comparison of early Porsche gearing (for a Speedster) versus a Karman Ghia:
You can see why the VW first is like a "stump puller" - Really down there - So you run out of RPM's 2/3'ds of the way across an intersection.
So, you're in the ballpark of both, leaning a bit more towards the original Speedster (and probably with a different rear end ratio). But remember, the original Speedster had a LOT less power than many of our Speedsters and was geared more for power on winding back roads than an interstate, especially with a 4:28 rear end. Doing 75-ish in an original Speedy is pushing 4 grand rpm, but on the track they spent most of their time above 4 grand in 2-3-4'th. They used the upper half of the power band. We, OTOH, probably spend most of our time closer to 3 grand and like to keep it around 3,500 on Interstates, so we run the lower ratio (higher gearing) rear end, which makes the bottom 3 gears a tad more sluggish. BUT! With twice the power or more, we don't care.
Hope this helps.
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Correct - So when you look at the numbers below circled in red you can understand where a 2 liter 140 HP engine may benefit from much taller ratios - the major difference in my transaxle being the 3:44 r&p otherwise the numbers are nearly identical. And just for the unaware the 3:44 makes all gears taller yet.
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Cliff Presley - Charlotte, NC posted:Rusty S posted:3.10, 2.86, 1.21, .89 with 3:44 R&P
Thanks Rusty.
So is mine ok with rations of 3.10, 1.93, 1.21, 0.82 ??
Is that what you have in it now, Cliff? With what ring & pinion?
PS- According to those figures (4.28x3.09) a Speedster's final drive in first gear is 13.22. Probably the easiest (and most inexpensive) way to emulate that in a VW transaxle is with an aftermarket 3.44 ring & pinion ($400?) and a stock mainshaft (3.78 first), which is ever so slightly taller at 13.00. You'll have to change 4th from .89 to .93 (and you may want to change 3rd as well) to make it driveable at highway speeds, though. Using an aftermarket mainshaft with 3.10 1st and a 3.88 r&p gives a final drive of 12.06, substantially taller than the Speedster gears (which Trevor916 from here says he loves!), and Rusty's combo of 3.10 with 3.44 r&p comes out at 10.69, hugely taller than even the 3.10/3.88 combo. A VW 4.125 r&p with the aftermarket 3.10 1st also comes in very close (12.8) to the Speedster combo.
The big issue with going taller in 1st is if you like your car's quickness off the line it will now feel somewhat "sluggish". The limitations of a 4 speed start showing here; you can't change 1 thing too much without affecting another.
PPSS- @Gordon Nichols- is it possible the 4.28 r&p listed for Speedsters in that sheet is a typo? I've never seen a 4.28 listed in any older Porsche literature I've seen. Usually the r&p has 3 figures behind the decimal and they did make a 4.428 (as well as a 4.375, 4.856 and what's listed as a 5.18, which when you divide 6 into 31 actually gives 5.1666666...). Now I am the first to admit that I haven't seen a lot of older Porsche specs, but this 1 surprises me.
PPPSSSSSSS- What you have should be a heck of a lot of fun, Cliff!
Hello Al,
Yes, the gear ratios in the transmission built for me by Rancho are 3.10, 1.93, 1.21, 0.82 - with a 388 ring and pinion.
Cliff 
Al: You're right, and now I'll have to find where the heck I got that page from!
The following 356 ring and pinion ratios have been used through the years, according to my Floyd Clymer 356 performance book (had to dig a bit to find it):
8:35 (4.37 to 1)
7:31 (4.428 to 1) - the one with the typo, above
7:34 (4.85 to 1)
and 6:31 (5.18 to 1)
Floyd wasn't big on three decimal places.....
BTW: Porsche always offered an "A", "B" and "C" gear set for each gear, which were each ordered separately:
1'st:
A= 3.18 to 1, B = 3.09 to 1 and C = 2.54 to 1
2'nd:
A = 1.94 to 1, B = 1.76 to 1 and C = 1.61 to 1
3'rd:
A = 1.23 to 1, B = 1.13 to 1, C = 1.04
4'th:
A = .960 to 1, B = .885 to 1, C = .815 to 1
Coupes and convertibles typically came with (1'ST to 4'TH) B B B C
Speedsters with B B A B
Gearing exiting the factory were stamped on a flat spot on the case.
Thanks Gordon. I have a couple more gears for your list-
3th- E- 1.35 (20/27) 4th- D- .851 (27/23)
You must have found Floyd's "secret tuner book". 
I am jn the same noat with Whoever said he wanted a similar experience to a porsche tranny 
... and is also afflicted (as am I) with fingers too big for small cell phone virtual keyboards. Or I don't know what a noat is. Perhaps: "A vessel just one slip right of a boat." 
gotta keep this thread alive, its our sacred duty.
El Frazoo posted:gotta keep this thread alive, its our sacred duty.
Here is my contribution.
Thanks for sharing, Bob.
oh man... this is how it goes with you guys isn't?
You all welcoming... "Hey..... looking good!.. keep it up!.." and then once the new kids are in too deep... you hook 'em with your fancy talk of gear ratios and greener pastures. My fourth is bigger than yours... no my third .. is my forth... my fourth is your fifth. 
Then it's pitch depth, flank angle, and bottom lands.
It's a perverted cult of the stick shift.
Brian - save yourself before it's too late.
TRP posted:Regarding gear ratios and 5 speeds - don't do it. Torque and gear ratios area gateway drug.
This is incorrect. "A little more power" is the gateway drug.
Gear ratios are heroin.
Forewarned is forearmed.
... and twin-plug motors. Don't forget twin-plugging.
Forget heroin. That's acid.
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:... and twin-plug motors. Don't forget twin-plugging.
Forget heroin. That's acid.
I think so far you're the only one crazy enough to do the double plug. You have much deeper pockets than the rest of us plebeians.
Good thing I don't do drugs 
Ok
Bringing the thread back on point... LOL!
I took the Speedster up to Vintage Motorcars yesterday afternoon with a package for Greg. I pulled the trigger and asked him to start using ALL the parts I brought him to build a solid/spirited little 2110cc for me. I only asked that it be ready in time for the SLO cruise in June, which he will make happen.
Our plan: He will look over my 1915cc and seal up any issues. We will ultimately sell the 1915cc and put the funds toward the 2110cc build. Any extra parts I have, he will see if there is a use for them in his build/shop or if he knows of an engine builder that could use them - I'll sell them dirt cheap because I don't want to deal with the effort of posting them, etc...
As for the 2110cc build, I already have a stock OEM VW AS41 case I bored out to 90.5mm with a STD thrust and .020 align bore. We will full flow the case, lifter bores, etc. I have stock vw heads I bored to 90.5mm and will open up the valves to the appropriate size. They will also get new valve guides, dual springs, valves, etc, etc. Greg believes the OEM heads will be a lot better and save some costs. It will have 44 carbs and intake manifolds to match the heads (no crazy porting, but something). Not sure on the cam yet, but he is putting a list together in the coming weeks I can take a look at. All the standard external oil sump and filter will be there. I will also add an external oil cooler and mount it behind the fire wall.
So, there is the plan.
As I mentioned before, I've always enjoyed working with Greg and he has always been honest (even if it is brutal honesty some times). He also had some pretty cool builds going on too
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*LongFella posted:Good thing I don't do drugs
Ok
Bringing the thread back on point... LOL!
I took the Speedster up to Vintage Motorcars yesterday afternoon with a package for Greg. I pulled the trigger and asked him to start using ALL the parts I brought him to build a solid/spirited little 2110cc for me. I only asked that it be ready in time for the SLO cruise in June, which he will make happen.
Our plan: He will look over my 1915cc and seal up any issues. We will ultimately sell the 1915cc and put the funds toward the 2110cc build. Any extra parts I have, he will see if there is a use for them in his build/shop or if he knows of an engine builder that could use them - I'll sell them dirt cheap because I don't want to deal with the effort of posting them, etc...
As for the 2110cc build, I already have a stock OEM VW AS41 case I bored out to 90.5mm with a STD thrust and .020 align bore. We will full flow the case, lifter bores, etc. I have stock vw heads I bored to 90.5mm and will open up the valves to the appropriate size. They will also get new valve guides, dual springs, valves, etc, etc. Greg believes the OEM heads will be a lot better and save some costs. It will have 44 carbs and intake manifolds to match the heads (no crazy porting, but something). Not sure on the cam yet, but he is putting a list together in the coming weeks I can take a look at. All the standard external oil sump and filter will be there. I will also add an external oil cooler and mount it behind the fire wall.
So, there is the plan.
As I mentioned before, I've always enjoyed working with Greg and he has always been honest (even if it is brutal honesty some times). He also had some pretty cool builds going on too
.......STD thrust......
A lot of STDs start with a thrust.
Was it Al, who mentioned the oil galley opening that should be done on a type one to allow for better oiling like they do in aircrafts running VW Aircooled engines? I was curious if anyone on the list has this done to their A/Cooled engine. Do any of the engine builders do this mod?
IaM-Ray posted:Was it Al, who mentioned the oil galley opening that should be done on a type one to allow for better oiling like they do in aircrafts running VW Aircooled engines? I was curious if anyone on the list has this done to their A/Cooled engine. Do any of the engine builders do this mod?
Might have been. I'll trust Greg and his crew will make additional mods to the case if needed
After all said and done, I should have a reliable and strong 2110cc to drive around town in. Plus, I'll have Greg's shop available if anything goes wrong.
Good memory, Ray!
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot...007/05/hvx-mods.html
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.../hvx-mods-again.html
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot...hvxmods-warning.html
If you fill the depression in the case with Aluminal (or some such epoxy) you won't have to worry about breaking through. All it would take is to sand the bottom and sides of the depression really well with 80 or 100 grit sandpaper (you want to expose fresh magnesium and rough it up for the best adhesion), put a few deeper scratches on the sides with a screwdriver or awl to really give the material some anchor points and fill about 3/4". Preferably do this before drilling...
For those that have never seen this before; guys who do all the steps report the benefits are real.
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@Pat Downs I wonder if CB performance has investigated the Bob Hoover method of increase oiling with the modification? Just saying.
Brian ... now you need a new tranny mod Ring and Pinion 3:44 !!!
TRP posted:I think so far you're the only one crazy enough to do the double plug. You HAD much deeper pockets than the rest of us plebeians.
Fixed it.
Well, Bob Carley's IM-6 is double plugged - that makes 12 plugs at last count.
I guess your plugging for all of us to upgrade to 6 cylinders now I think Phil is listening
Bringing my thread back
My amazing beautiful wonderful wifey has a birthday tomorrow and she hasn't been out in the Speedster. I planned a day that involved many miles, smiles, food, and drinks. My parents took care of our little angel while we stopped at The Montage in Laguna Beach. I'll be honest, I was nervous as hell leaving Eleanor outside, but the valet crew was amazing!
This was my wifeys first time out and every time I looked over at her while driving... her hair was floating around softly - love.
This was ALL worh it.
Nothing new to update...
I was hoping to go for a drive today, but the rain decided to come. This might be my last weekend of cruising before I pull the engine and starting getting things ready for the new one once Greg finalizes the build sheet (next week).
All I asked was for the engine to be built, well sorted, and in Eleanor before the SLO cruise
IaM-Ray posted:@Pat Downs I wonder if CB performance has investigated the Bob Hoover method of increase oiling with the modification? Just saying.
A lot of shops are of the attitude that it runs fine without it so they don't bother, and if you just look at it that way it's hard to argue. When you're quoting a price for an engine build it's an extra cost, and just drives the price up even more. The mods will let an engine run cooler (more heat taken away from the heads) and the tune will stay closer to optimal a greater percentager of the time, since the engine will run closer to proper operating temps more of the time. All you are doing is updating or modernizing the oil system, as the type 4/914 engine is built this way from the factory.
Every one I've either talked to or read about that has done the mods to a build says it's totally worth it and wouldn't build another engine without them.
Picked this little guy up. Should make loading and unloading the engine a little (maybe a LOT) easier. Using a jack and trying to balance the engine was a bit nerve racking for me... just as Musbjim
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Al, when you really think about it, it's kind of an AHA moment.
I find myself continually running into situations where those who serve me think they know better... and choose for me.
They do not even think of inform me of my choices or options when at times I could have had X and they really force fed me Y.
When I find out I am usually not happy at not having been given a choice.
I usually remember them as being nothing more than order takers and I move on to someone who will serve me by fully informing me of my choices and allowing me to choose.
Patronizing patterns of behaviour in those who serve us do not really serve us well.
Sometimes the service provider can even feel that doing nothing has absolved them of their responsibility, in their opinion they feel they did not serve us but innaction can be as detrimental to the client as much as direct action. Just think of a mechanic seeing the brake line leaking and not informing you. His inaction can cost you your life.
In conclusion, maybe I am too OCD and want more control than others do when they get work done
Brian; I have a similar motorcycle jack (a Craftsman) that I've been using for years. Once I get the engine out, I just leave it on the jack to work on it, unless it's something major, and then I put it on an engine stand. For that, I enlist a rugged neighbor to lift it up and slide it onto the stand.
With those Delron (Nylon) rollers, make sure the floor is clean (swept) before running it around to maneuver the engine as dirt and pebbles try to imbed into the rollers.
That jack should work like a dream - just don't let Jim steal it (Oh! Look over there! Swish!)