I meant to post more on this Vintage Speed muffler. I know I spoke about it a few months ago. I sent one to Pat to test on one of our engines. He tested it on a 2110. The engine made 140hp on the standard A1 and 126hp on the super flow Vintage Speed. The Vintage Speed version also required some jet and air corrector changes to performa properly. Just FYI.
chines1 posted:I meant to post more on this Vintage Speed muffler. I know I spoke about it a few months ago. I sent one to Pat to test on one of our engines. He tested it on a 2110. The engine made 140hp on the standard A1 and 126hp on the super flow Vintage Speed. The Vintage Speed version also required some jet and air corrector changes to performa properly. Just FYI.
Good to know! Hmmm... that's a decent amount of power left on the table...
Now that I am back from the West Coast Cruise, I to 'm planning to take the Speedster back to Greg at Vintage Motorcars to look over the new engine he built/installed and make sure everything is sound. I might have him reach out to you or Pat and see about making the needed changes... Knowing Greg, he'll just convince me to get an A-1... which I might be open too 
On a good note, the engine was AWESOME and didn't have one issue or drop of oil. The oil temps didn't even get to the halfway mark. The new found power in a 2110cc versus a 1915cc is addicting!
Addiction to Power is contagious
Anybody having any pics of an A1 dual tip on their Speedsters?
chines1 posted:I meant to post more on this Vintage Speed muffler. I know I spoke about it a few months ago. I sent one to Pat to test on one of our engines. He tested it on a 2110. The engine made 140hp on the standard A1 and 126hp on the super flow Vintage Speed. The Vintage Speed version also required some jet and air corrector changes to performa properly. Just FYI.
Wow- 14 hp is a lot to give up for "the look", when Tiger will build a dual outlet if asked. Did the fuel jets get bigger (possibly affecting mileage)? This says to me that the VS isn't the most efficient design.
And Brian, soon you'll be used to the power increase and wondering how much more there is with some more headwork. You'll be thinking about tearing it down again...
Actually smaller. Maybe @Pat Downs can chine in, but I believe he went down on mains and down on air correctors and might have even dropped to smaller venturis
@Former Member has recieved many quotes from @Pat Downs about horsepower downgrades with this sort of exhaust (Teby has a similar style on his car). It is actually now a joke amongst us. We vary the horsepower loss from as little as 5 hp to 30 hp depending on how much we want to annoy Teby! 
Actually, I'm surprised the difference isn't greater. Exhaust tuning is something that gets nowhere near enough thought, IMHO. The layout of a rear engine vehicle makes installing a good exhaust difficult, but not impossible.
There can't ever be a canister type exhaust that works anywhere near as well as a well (or even poorly) designed 4-into-1 header-- it's just physics. With a good collector (not one like an EMPI) actually draws a vacuum on the exhaust valve, evacuating the cylinder with more efficiency even then the rising piston. That's how cam overlap works. It's really quite amazing, and you get almost none of that with the cool looking Vintage Speed canister-type exhaust.
Then there's the issue of primary tube length and size. An A1 sidewinder has long primary tubes, which actually isn't ideal for the application. (Comparatively) shorter primaries (like a "merged" system) are actually quite a bit better, but the problem is the collector points straight out the back of the car. Nobody wants to run a stinger on the street.
As long as the guy understands the trade-offs, I've got no problem with bolting anything you would like on the engine.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Brian, according to Pat Downs, the A-1 is louder than your Vintage.
I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it
I'm keeping my Vintage, 125 hp is more than double what the P-cars had (Normal motors) and that's enough for me.
Also, (I noticed you don't have heater boxes) you're really going to miss having a heater this fall/winter...jus sayin'...
Uh well, um, yeah, I've got a Vintage Speed, too, mainly because I liked the look AND I've got a nasty bump at the end of my driveway and pipes that scrape every time I come or go just weren't an option. And maybe I liked the sound better, too.
But my question is this. We always hear about the difference in power. What's the difference in low end torque between the A-1 and Vintage Speed? Power is what you brag about. Torque is what pushes you back in the seat when you stomp on it.
Does anyone have real world driving experience, switching between these two exhausts on the same engine?
What's the difference in low end torque? Great question.
Brian, just my $.02: i've driven my VS through the winter. I'm in Lake Forest and commute with "Ella", unless it's raining. I find the heat necessary, even with this stinkin' "June gloom". My rag top sits way atop a shelf in the garage. I'd imagine the heat gets pretty good if you have a top. So, if you're planning on driving consistently, it's worth consideration.
hoping to divert discussion: since we're on the topic of exhausts, how much, if any compression braking sourced back fire is acceptable, if any? I'm trying to eliminate exhaust leaks that probably come from the joints where clamps are supposed to hold the muffler to the pipes. do i just clamp and maybe putty-up those connections? Is there a certain amount of back-fire that just comes with these engines? Thanks,
weinerdog, backfires are primarily caused by air-leaks in the exhaust system
however, it can also be caused by a disappearing brass distributor drive gear...
Large Dachshund posted:Brian, just my $.02: i've driven my VS through the winter. I'm in Lake Forest and commute with "Ella", unless it's raining. I find the heat necessary, even with this stinkin' "June gloom". My rag top sits way atop a shelf in the garage. I'd imagine the heat gets pretty good if you have a top. So, if you're planning on driving consistently, it's worth consideration.
hoping to divert discussion: since we're on the topic of exhausts, how much, if any compression braking sourced back fire is acceptable, if any? I'm trying to eliminate exhaust leaks that probably come from the joints where clamps are supposed to hold the muffler to the pipes. do i just clamp and maybe putty-up those connections? Is there a certain amount of back-fire that just comes with these engines? Thanks,
Are you sure you have exhaust leaks? Re-sync your carbs and set your linkage correctly.
Sacto Mitch posted:
Uh well, um, yeah, I've got a Vintage Speed, too, mainly because I liked the look AND I've got a nasty bump at the end of my driveway and pipes that scrape every time I come or go just weren't an option. And maybe I liked the sound better, too.
But my question is this. We always hear about the difference in power. What's the difference in low end torque between the A-1 and Vintage Speed? Power is what you brag about. Torque is what pushes you back in the seat when you stomp on it.
Does anyone have real world driving experience, switching between these two exhausts on the same engine?
At what RPM?
As a point of clarification, torque is a measurable force. Horsepower is a calculation based on measured torque at a given RPM. So, generally an engine with more horsepower has more peak torque as well.
At what engine speed the torque peak occurs, and how long the engine stays at peak torque really determine how drivable a car is. If peak torque arrives early, and hangs around through several thousand RPMs of engine speed, it's probably sweeter than an engine with higher peak torque which occurs for but a brief instant at greater engine speeds.
With an equal-length header, the powerband of the engine can be tailored to a great extent. Where the torque peak occurs, and the shape of it can be predicted with great accuracy based on primary tube diameter, primary tube length, and the "choke" diameter of the collector. This isn't some black art-- the formulas are pretty well established.
Unfortunately, you get what you get. The problem with our cars is packaging. Some sacrifices need to be made for the thing to fit. Determining which compromises to make is where the black art comes in. The A1 is far from perfect, but it fits and has a nice collector, which is very important.
There's a very common misconception that an engine needs "back-pressure" to build torque at a low RPM. This is idiotic. An engine will always make more power if the exhaust is actually scavenging the cylinder. "Back-pressure" would mean that the exhaust charge would hang around in the cylinder until the rising piston could overcome the pressure. Since the intake and exhaust are open at the same time a lot of the time, "back-pressure" would push the intake charge back out of the cylinder. This is no way to make power.
So, even an exhaust that isn't equal-length has some scavenging going on, but nowhere near as much, and nowhere near as efficiently. I'm not making this stuff up-- I want a really attractive stainless steel can to work as well as a merged header, but it doesn't.
Like most things made by CSP-- that exhaust is the best thing available, and the most expensive by 2x.
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:Sacto Mitch posted:
Uh well, um, yeah, I've got a Vintage Speed, too, mainly because I liked the look AND I've got a nasty bump at the end of my driveway and pipes that scrape every time I come or go just weren't an option. And maybe I liked the sound better, too.
But my question is this. We always hear about the difference in power. What's the difference in low end torque between the A-1 and Vintage Speed? Power is what you brag about. Torque is what pushes you back in the seat when you stomp on it.
Does anyone have real world driving experience, switching between these two exhausts on the same engine?
At what RPM?
As a point of clarification, torque is a measurable force. Horsepower is a calculation based on measured torque at a given RPM. So, generally an engine with more horsepower has more peak torque as well.
At what engine speed the torque peak occurs, and how long the engine stays at peak torque really determine how drivable a car is. If peak torque arrives early, and hangs around through several thousand RPMs of engine speed, it's probably sweeter than an engine with higher peak torque which occurs for but a brief instant at greater engine speeds.
With an equal-length header, the powerband of the engine can be tailored to a great extent. Where the torque peak occurs, and the shape of it can be predicted with great accuracy based on primary tube diameter, primary tube length, and the "choke" diameter of the collector. This isn't some black art-- the formulas are pretty well established.
Unfortunately, you get what you get. The problem with our cars is packaging. Some sacrifices need to be made for the thing to fit. Determining which compromises to make is where the black art comes in. The A1 is far from perfect, but it fits and has a nice collector, which is very important.
There's a very common misconception that an engine needs "back-pressure" to build torque at a low RPM. This is idiotic. An engine will always make more power if the exhaust is actually scavenging the cylinder. "Back-pressure" would mean that the exhaust charge would hang around in the cylinder until the rising piston could overcome the pressure. Since the intake and exhaust are open at the same time a lot of the time, "back-pressure" would push the intake charge back out of the cylinder. This is no way to make power.
So, even an exhaust that isn't equal-length has some scavenging going on, but nowhere near as much, and nowhere near as efficiently. I'm not making this stuff up-- I want a really attractive stainless steel can to work as well as a merged header, but it doesn't.
Will Hesch posted:Brian, according to Pat Downs, the A-1 is louder than your Vintage.
I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it
I'm keeping my Vintage, 125 hp is more than double what the P-cars had (Normal motors) and that's enough for me.
Also, (I noticed you don't have heater boxes) you're really going to miss having a heater this fall/winter...jus sayin'...
I spoke to Greg this morning and he had the same thoughts. I like the look. It works. I don't have any issues with the engine after a rather LONG break in/cruise. Why push it?
I will be dropping Eleanor off next wee for Greg to do a final check of all the work, oil change, valve job, sync carbs, check exhaust gaskets for leaks, and adjust the float on the driver side carb.
I'm really happy with the engine. It did amazing this past weekend
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:Sacto Mitch posted:
...But my question is this. We always hear about the difference in power. What's the difference in low end torque between the A-1 and Vintage Speed? Power is what you brag about. Torque is what pushes you back in the seat when you stomp on it...
...At what RPM?...
Yeah, that's the big question, isn't it? And kinda what lead to my posting this.
I always see figures quoted about how much horsepower you lose with the Vintage Speed vs. the A-1. The example quoted here today was something like 140 vs 126. But those numbers are peak power, read off of a dyno test.
Most hp curves I see for mild tuned, streetable two liter type 1's peak around 5-6K. Fair enough, but what's the difference lower on the rev curve where most of us spend most of our time?
My engine builder says I'm good to 6200 rpm, but I've never had it over 5K. Truth is, at that speed, the sound starts scaring the shot out of me and I'm not gonna be the one to explain to the wife that I just threw away another $6K on 'that car of yours' because I was acting like a 16-year-old.
This engine starts making real go-power (maybe go-torque is more correct) at around 3000, gets happier on the way to 4000, and turns into a real champ between 4000 and 5000. Shifting at 5K, especially with a close-ratio five-speed, gets me down the pike quite nicely, thank you.
But that's not where I drive it 95% of the time. For every day, I'm noodling around between 2500 and 3500, with occasional romps to 4000. I'm in this car for the long haul, and I'm hoping my engine looks at it the same way. I do what I can to help.
So the big question, again, is what am I giving up to the A1 down low, 2500 - 4000 rpm, where I spend most of my time?
And again, has anyone compared the two on the same engine or on similar engines? If you're not really putting your boot into it, what's the difference in every day driving?
Anthony posted:Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:Sacto Mitch posted:
Uh well, um, yeah, I've got a Vintage Speed, too, mainly because I liked the look AND I've got a nasty bump at the end of my driveway and pipes that scrape every time I come or go just weren't an option. And maybe I liked the sound better, too.
But my question is this. We always hear about the difference in power. What's the difference in low end torque between the A-1 and Vintage Speed? Power is what you brag about. Torque is what pushes you back in the seat when you stomp on it.
Does anyone have real world driving experience, switching between these two exhausts on the same engine?
At what RPM?
As a point of clarification, torque is a measurable force. Horsepower is a calculation based on measured torque at a given RPM. So, generally an engine with more horsepower has more peak torque as well.
At what engine speed the torque peak occurs, and how long the engine stays at peak torque really determine how drivable a car is. If peak torque arrives early, and hangs around through several thousand RPMs of engine speed, it's probably sweeter than an engine with higher peak torque which occurs for but a brief instant at greater engine speeds.
With an equal-length header, the powerband of the engine can be tailored to a great extent. Where the torque peak occurs, and the shape of it can be predicted with great accuracy based on primary tube diameter, primary tube length, and the "choke" diameter of the collector. This isn't some black art-- the formulas are pretty well established.
Unfortunately, you get what you get. The problem with our cars is packaging. Some sacrifices need to be made for the thing to fit. Determining which compromises to make is where the black art comes in. The A1 is far from perfect, but it fits and has a nice collector, which is very important.
There's a very common misconception that an engine needs "back-pressure" to build torque at a low RPM. This is idiotic. An engine will always make more power if the exhaust is actually scavenging the cylinder. "Back-pressure" would mean that the exhaust charge would hang around in the cylinder until the rising piston could overcome the pressure. Since the intake and exhaust are open at the same time a lot of the time, "back-pressure" would push the intake charge back out of the cylinder. This is no way to make power.
So, even an exhaust that isn't equal-length has some scavenging going on, but nowhere near as much, and nowhere near as efficiently. I'm not making this stuff up-- I want a really attractive stainless steel can to work as well as a merged header, but it doesn't.
Well said Stan, there is the other factor: driving style. I noticed over the years the merged header works for the driving style that has their foot in it all the time. Stop light to stop light or merging on the freeway one must kiss the redline. Then there is the driver whose motor has the cam advanced slightly and enjoys the torque band in the lower rpm which a stylist exhaust serves good purpose. I have yet to find the all purpose engine combo ( cam, heads, crank, rod ratio, exhaust and carbs). If someone finds it he is the wise one!
@Bill Prout, Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tuned the carbs. So I'll get on it!
A1s are not close to equal length. They do a good job of trying to make the best of a difficult packaging situation though.
Fpcopo VS posted:A1s are not close to equal length. They do a good job of trying to make the best of a difficult packaging situation though.
That's exactly right. It took me a few years to figure that out. Tiger tries, but the tubes are up to 6" different in length, and about a foot too long to be optimal. I ran an A1 "low-down" merged header for a while, but the packaging was just too tight.
CSP's sidewinder is purported to have true equal-length tubes, and the "choke point" at the collector is adjustable with different sized cones.
@Bill Prout: many thanks! I put the snail to both carbs. Upped the intake a bit. Ran it good after the adjustment.
Subys and electric crap are fool's gold. The harmonic emanating from the ac engine when it's hooked up is so seductive that there's no comparison to the optimized, quiet purr of water or increased toxic waste footprint of the electric.
Large Dachshund posted:@Bill Prout: many thanks! I put the snail to both carbs. Upped the intake a bit. Ran it good after the adjustment.
Subys and electric crap are fool's gold. The harmonic emanating from the ac engine when it's hooked up is so seductive that there's no comparison to the optimized, quiet purr of water or increased toxic waste footprint of the electric.
Glad you got it dialed in!
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:Actually, I'm surprised the difference isn't greater. Exhaust tuning is something that gets nowhere near enough thought, IMHO. The layout of a rear engine vehicle makes installing a good exhaust difficult, but not impossible.
There can't ever be a canister type exhaust that works anywhere near as well as a well (or even poorly) designed 4-into-1 header-- it's just physics. With a good collector (not one like an EMPI) actually draws a vacuum on the exhaust valve, evacuating the cylinder with more efficiency even then the rising piston. That's how cam overlap works. It's really quite amazing, and you get almost none of that with the cool looking Vintage Speed canister-type exhaust.
Then there's the issue of primary tube length and size. An A1 sidewinder has long primary tubes, which actually isn't ideal for the application. (Comparatively) shorter primaries (like a "merged" system) are actually quite a bit better, but the problem is the collector points straight out the back of the car. Nobody wants to run a stinger on the street.
As long as the guy understands the trade-offs, I've got no problem with bolting anything you would like on the engine.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Stan, with your knowledge base may I ask what type of exhaust system you are running. Thank you.
The weather has been gorgeous in So Cal lately and as much as I want to drive Eleanor - no can do 
After the long SLO cruise, I've noticed some gas leaking from the driver side carb of the #4 cylinder. The gasket gets soaked and eventually drips down the intake manifolds. It does not get soaked over the #3 or passenger side carbs. It's not much, but not worth the risk of starting a fire... I don't want to pull a @Robert M LOL!!!
Plus, the car needs to head up to Greg's for a final oil change, valve job, and carb adjustment/tuning. He can address the gas leak too... maybe a needle valve clogged or float adjustment... either way... he will take care of it
I was just about ready to have Cary build me a Subaru speedster when a pre-owned SAS Cabriolet came up for sale.
I'm about 4.5 hours from Bremen, but went to High School at Culver Military Academy, which is really close to Bremen. One of these days, I'm going to visit my alma mater and stop by to visit Carey and his team. I'm saving up for a spyder replica, and will likely have them build it.
If you find a well sorted pre-owned car, I would say go for it. But you really can't go wrong with a new build from Special Edition.
^^^ Good to know? LOL!
Anthony posted:*LongFella posted:Anybody having any pics of an A1 dual tip on their Speedsters?
This is not a A1 but a CSP with dual tips
Anthony, with the current CSP exhaust which type did you go with- I looked at their site and not sure which one you actually have? Also, have you dyno'd to see your torque and calculated HP? Final question, what size motor do you have and carb types/ Thanx Michael
@Anthony , I think that IM is squatting on your property.
Is the above CSP, a 4:1 merged?
Art posted:Is the above CSP, a 4:1 merged?
Yes 4-1 merged with muffler located on right side and I made the two tip outlet
Very nice Anthony.
Michael B (aka bluespeedster SoCal) posted:Stan, with your knowledge base may I ask what type of exhaust system you are running. Thank you.
My "knowledge base" mainly consists of doing the wrong thing, then reading way too much and over-compensating in the other direction.
I'm running an A1 sidewinder. A CSP Python is a better sidewinder, as the tubes are equal-length and the collector choke is has the ability to change sizes by means of buying different cones. But since I'm running a dry-sump, I needed some customization to get the tubes away from the pump. Tiger (reluctantly) agreed to modify the header to get it further back, and I built the rest of the exhaust from there.
It's pretty cool, and features a muffler bypass valve which does nothing for performance, but is pretty neat when I'm feeling like a white-trash hick-town homeboy. When that valve opens up, it's fire and brimstone.
Stan, thank you for your reply and back ground. There is so much feedback on this site on exhaust systems to motor size it makes ones head spin. I've been doing research and shopping for 6 months getting a better feel of whats good for a stock 1600CC with a mild cam- would like to keep things in the motor size since I have only 4k miles on it for the 2013 VS purchased car. I was looking at the cip1 site and found this summer sale on this type of exhaust-
https://www2.cip1.com/SearchRe...arch=C31-251-001-038
but have not heard of anyone using this style; did find some YouTube and sounds not as loud as the sidewinders. Plus the layout looks like both valve covers are blocked with the muffler. That would be okay since I'm running chromoly push rods.
thanks again,
Michael
*LongFella posted:I was able to successfully wire (and completely hide) the two port USB charging socket AND bluetooth speaker. The speaker actually sounds pretty nice and the under-dash placement does enhance the sound/bass.
Can you link me to your speaker? Or at least the model number? I'm having a hard time identifying it by the logo when I took a pic in SLO.
Update
My sleuthing skills are on point. Eco Slate. Out of Stock at Costco ($70), but available on Amazon ($90).
That is the one! Just happened to come across it while shopping before the WCC... I plan to get another one if they still have them since you can pair two at a time (DOUBLE the volume!)