Lets talk 912's

I need some input here. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm thinking about a 912. I've been in contact with two guys selling theirs. For now I'm looking to get a nice classic daily driver with a few "outlawish" upgrades. I'm not looking to go balls out on the car............yet. Both of the cars below are 5 speeds. (essential) Oh, and both have Fuchs (also essential)

The 1967 has a VW 1600cc, new floor pans and rocker panels. Was originally green and has been painted red. It's needs some work to get it to a car that I would drive everyday. I'd also likely rebuild the engine or have one built to replace the 1600cc.

The 1966 has the original engine rebuilt 12K ago. It has some rust in the rear section of the floor boards. The interior is in good shape as well as the paint. The most I'd look to do engine wise in the short term is to put a 1750 kit on it and a header.

Either one with the work needed would put me in the 10-12k range when all is said and done. I think getting a 356 coupe would be a little redundant and MUCH more expensive. I LOVE the look of the early 911/912's and I like the idea of a flat four air cooled engine in the car. I'm not looking for power, just a fun cool looking car that I can depend on and not get wet when it rains or freeze my ass off in the winter.


Anyone out there ever have one of these? Know anything about them that I should be aware of? Anyone, Bueller, anyone......... thanks

I had a '66 many years ago. I loved the car but it had a few issues. It was quite the rust bucket and I had to replace the engine in it. I had issues with the solexes - never got them 100%. But it was a really fun car to drive. Although it was a bit underpowered, it really handled well. A 5-speed is a must. The short wheelbase made it a blast to drive in the twisty stuff.
I did prefer the '70 911T that replaced it, although it was a lot more expensive to maintain.

Loved my 67....5 speed, all original...pristine condition, sold a few years ago for something around 8K....Paid 5K, owned for a few years.....had to buy it at 5K, felt like I stole it.....Flew into Sacramento with the wife and drove it back to L.A. do not think I would invest in one that's been modified (VW Motor).
Also 67 is last of the good years for most cars, with all the safety features required for 68 and on...
Either original or nothing...Value is bad enough as an original at this time, will be worse modified over time, where the original will increase...at some point...
My opinion....

I owned a 1968 912. Bought it in 1969 and loved the car. Later, I added 6" fuchs wheels and a front anti-sway bar. It was a very fun car to drive and after I rebuilt the engine, I removed the smog pump which made it even better
Personally, I didn't find it too undepowered, as I was very familiar with driving 356 cars.

About 2 years after selling the 912 car, I bought a 1971 911T from a USAF Captain being shipped overseas who made me a "Vito Corlione" kind of a deal ("I'll make him an offer he can't refuse") as he just wanted to sell his car rather than have it shipped

If it were me, I would keep looking until you find the "right" car. Don't settle of a car you have any anxiety issue with as it will spoil the deal .
Towards the end of 2006 and the beginning of 2007, I found a few very solid non rusted 912 cars in CA that were relatively inexpensive compared to my 1973 911.

Like Vince, don't settle for a VW engine unless the car comes with its original. A lot of 912 owners install modified VW engines for 2 reasons, It's expensive to rebuild a 912 and the other is they want the original engine for asthetics but don't want to rack up miles so they install a VW.

The original Solex 40P11 carbs worked great but eventually, the butterfly cross shaft bushing wore out and created vacuum leaks. They can be machined and new bushings installed but most opted for Weber carbs as a replacement.

Vince and Larry sum it up pretty well. A 912 is a nice car and is the best classic Porsche for the money. If you look patiently a nice RUST free, I repeat, RUST FREE car with 912 engine is your best bet. Check the 912 Registry for cars for sale and Pelican Parts Forums also. I have been watching the 912 market, and $10,000-12,000 will buy a really nice car with no rust and a good motor. IMHO it is better to spend more to get a really nice car than to get a fixer with rust or a VW motor. I'll keep my eyes open for a nice car for you.

I'd also recommend looking for 1976 912E. Not many made (2100 or so) but they seemed to have cured the rust worm problem by using high zinc steel. They are reasonable to maintain and modify with a 2L T4 VW engine.

Ditto all above. I really enjoyed my 66 912 and as far as a fixer upper goes, the only material difference between a 912 and 911 is the engine. Expect to pay the same for NOS parts for an early 912 as a 911. Some of these parts are getting expensive...when I parted out my 66 I got $200 for the jack alone, $600 for the steering wheel, $200 for the correct pair of window crank handles, etc! (I still have mnay parts, just too expensive to ship from here and no market locally)

In addition to the usual rust places on any car, check the front suspension support that runs from side to side. Even on cars from rust free places this support can rust, usually from the inside out.

IMO the early 912 (we're not talking 912E, right?) is very pretty, usable, and enjoyable car.

A 912 is high on my "desirable second toys" list. Not sure how I'd pay for one, but I'd like to have one. Doesn't Jake Raby do engines for those, or am I mistaken?

right on lane I think he even has his own.

Mickey, since i bought the beck last week i have done nothing but figure out ways to upgrade her and spend money on her. You have a race kart, a speedster and your looking into a track bike and a 912. We both own restaurants but i must be doing something wrong. When you take me for my first ride in your new 912 you must let me in on the secret of beating the downturn in the economy.

BTW Is it normal that I sit up at night pouring thru years of old threads?

The 912E has a VW Type IV engine (same basic engine as the Bus, 411 & 412 and a Porsche 914

An original 912 has a variation of the 356 engine.

Thanks to all for the words of wisdom. I

Mickey, I think you should be committed!

Take your time and find the right car. For about the same money(10-12000) or maybe a little more, you can get a 1978-83 911 SC. Car prices are lower right now, great time to buy. I appreciate the 912, especially the 912E, but nothing beats the sound and feel of that 6 under your foot.

I bought a 66 912 in 1985 for 3k and restored it. It had a sunroof that worked perfectly. The car was pretty clean just need to have the paint striped to the metal since it had been painted atleast 6 times and the paint was spiderwebing. I replaced all interior as well. Got all the parts from PB tweeks. When I was done with it I was too paranoid to drive it. so, I sold it a couple of years later for six thousand. I regret ever selling it. It still had the original engine and it ran great. I would buy another one in a minute if I had some place to park it. ha.

Mickey....San diego Craigslist.com see Item 1197021997....
67 Porsche 912....just a local example....Targa soft window...7900.00
probably take 7500.00
you should check some local craigslists in your area also...
I used to belong to the 912 registry, they covet these cars and think they are worth more than they really are, so theirs will cost you more..

Targa soft window cars are supposed to be desireable, that looks like a good price. Wish I was closer to that car....

As far as a 5-sp goes, I believe the 5 and 4 are interchangable in the early cars. The 5 sp 901 box is just the 4 sp with an additional gear for first. I wouldn't be too hung up on a 4 sp as you could easily swap it for a 4. More than likely either one will require some rebuilding if not already done, on the 5 sp its usually the first gear synchro that needs replacing.

This might be seen as sacrilege on this site but when Gerd starts doing my books at the restaurant I am on a hunt to replace the 97 Land Rover Defender 90 NAS that i sold when i had my first kid. That would make my toy collection complete.

At least until I started the search for .......

Good luck on your quest Mick

Mickey sorry for the slight hi-jack...

Stephen -

Check out this link to a web site I am also involved with...

http://www.expeditionportal.com/

Click on 'Forum' and scroll down to expedition vehicles. There is a huge contingency of LT crazies (like me) on this. Also check out the for sale listings under Land Rover. I'm looking for a nice Series as a desert beater.

Peace Out!

...or one of these...

Mickey -

FWIW - One of the first Porsches I've owned (in '72) was a '68 911S soft-window Targa. I guess Porsche wasn't too concerned about about galvanizing because that thing was a rust bucket. Only had it for a couple of years then sold it for $5K.

Good luck with your quest...

Apparently 1975 was first year that Porsche used zinc content steel - I had a '63 356, '66 911 and '72 914 and regardless of how well I maintained them rust always appeared (in mild winters of VA). On the '72 914 I media blasted the wheel wells and sprayed then with zinc chromate thinking that might prolong the vehicle. I hate rust.

I'm diggin the talk about Rovers. Last summer I picked up a 1994 Defender 90. Man I love that thing. It has lots of design flaws & is a pain in the ass, but it is so bare bones & unique that the good outweighs the bad. I will try to take a picture that is the right size to upload.

****warning dissenting opinion ahead****

Sorry to bag but a 912 is like a weightlifter with erectile dysfunction.

All the right looks and nothing where it counts....

Definately don't hesitate to do a T4 engine swap. Think of it as Viagra for a 912.

angela

I have to agree. There's no good reason in the world to own a 912 when you can get a fiberglass 356 coupe . . .

Submitted for your approval:

http://www.discountusedcars.com.au/used-cars/porsche/356a/6867742.aspx

Click on the larger center pic to access some addition detail shots and THEN check out the raised shifter box. This one is SO YOU ! ! Are you POSITIVE that you don't want a 356 Outlaw Coupe?

Don't discount 912's. Way back in the early 70's before they started calling it Auto Cross or Auto X, promoters would set up a course in a large parking lot, much like the current Auto X courses and I believe they called them gymkhana's or something like that.

You paid a few bucks and got to run the course. At that time, they would time 5 cars. The car with the best time got to go a new round for free.

I was there all day with my 912 beating Corvett's, 911's, a GT-350, an unknown year Ferrari, Austin Healy's, Bug eye Sprites and a whole myraid of Ford's, Chevy's and many other different cars. The whole day of adventure cost me $5.00 and I won a token trophy of which I have absolutely no idea of it's current location.

The only modifications to my 912 came in the form of a stock 911 front anti-sway bar, 185/70 x 15's mounted on 6" Fuchs wheels and Recaro Seats.

Granted, a 911 can go faster on a larger course but that day, they had to eat dog poop then go home and tell everyone that they were beat to death by a 912.

I understand the 911 allure and the idea that a 911SC for not much more than a 912 is interesting. But even though 912 engine parts are not as cheap as VW parts, when it comes time to rebuild a 912 motor, it will cost about half what a quality rebuild will cost on a 911 engine. Also my ability to trouble shoot, maintain and handle the inevitable little problems that will $100 and $1000 you to death on a Porsche is much better on a 912. I will be happy to look cars in San Diego area for you Mickey, even 911s.

Mickey, don't listen to Angela and the forum prick, first off, Angela likes everything hard and fast, and secondly, the forum prick, well, he's just a prick...
912's are cool, and just a fraction of a 911 cost overall....

I'm not ruling anything out yet. I'm now looking at some 911's as well. Contrary to what Steve Lucey thinks (that I'm rich and buy toys at every whim ;) ), I've had to make some difficult decisions recently. Primarily the racing. No matter how much I hold out hope, it'll never be the "family activity" I'd like it to be. My wife has little interest in my racing and that's putting it nicely. So I've decided to sell my kart (though I'll continue to race until it sells) and I'm going to pass on the track bike for now. Eliminating the 6-8 weekends a summer away from the family and the freeing up of space in the garage will go a long way to getting me into a fun daily driver. Since I won't be racing anymore I can dump the Scion Toaster to cover some of the cost of the 912/911.
I'm in the process of gathering as much info as I can on the "Pros and Cons" of anything pre-1984 right now and you have all been very helpful so far. Please keep the opinions, experiences, and helpful hints coming. I need as much info as possible. I've heard the 1978-1983 911SC's are pretty much bulletproof once you replace the chain tensioner with a oil fed one.

The SC's are great cars with one exception, they have CIS injection.
(Continous Injection System) In my opinion, that is its greatest downfall.

1984-1987 911's known as Carrera's have 3.2 engine (Actually 3164 cc but Porsche likes to "round up" their displacement numbers) with Motronic injeciton. That engine is considered one of the best of that era. The 3.6 came out a bit later and is also considered to be a great engine but it has a carbon build up problem.

I transplanted a 1987 3.2 into my 1973 911S removing an anemic 2.4 CIS engine with continous injection problems. It was like night and day.

Several people in the TYP 356 club have 912's. They're all "Porsche Snobs". I think that's because they KNOW that they have an anaemic Porsche that everyone sneers down upon, but they drive them anyway. OTHER people have 6-cylinder engines that can actually perform. the 912 driver has a flat four that can put out, what? 90hp as a super Carerra, or maybe 120hp if you spend $10,000 to have someone "soup it up". (I'm running close to 150hp on my VW engine, just to compare) They get all excited about getting a "Month-correct" replacement dash knob, having thoroughly researched what parts were used in the factory in every month (sometimes narrowed down to a week in a month) of every year of production of these little gems.

Yes, they can handle, especially in Gynkhanas. After all, you get it into second gear and never move from there, mash your right foot to the floor and almost never lift it off, braking with your left foot as needed and it'll out corner everything except a well-set-up-Speedster-replica or a Fiat Abarth 1600.

Other down sides? You can NEVER get them wet outside of California or Florida, because the rust will set in and spread as you watch. The coupe style is quite nice but if the rubber seals have been replaced ANYWHERE from factory original they'll leak. Sometimes worse than a Speedster replica.

Lastly, you'll have to get used to getting blown off at lights by Scion toasters - that's how much acceleration a heavy 912 coupe has with that little, under-powered-for-the-car engine under there. At least you'll get to see the bumper sticker on the Scion a it pulls away: "You've just been passed by a TOASTER!"

Mickey, you should invest in 2 books Porsche 912 Guide by Duane Spencer and Porsche 911 Buying guide by Randy Leffingwell. These books are excellent information for anyone contemplating a 901 body car.

C'mon, Gordon, tell us what you REALLY think ;-)

Will,
I was just looking for that book (911 Buyers Guide) at Boarders tonight, they didn't have it.
I've been perusing the Pelican Parts site (dem folks is smrt when it comes to Porsches) and am getting tons of good info.
I've also printed out about 6 ads that I'll follow up on ranging from right here in wilmington, de to as far as Boston. I'm going to look at a 67 912 in New Jersey on wednesday and a 74 911 sometime next week right here in wilmington.
Others on the list -
87 Coupe w/ new clutch 110k for $15500
87 Targa w/ suspension upgrades, G50 trans, new clutch 121k for $13900
80 SC Targa pretty stock w/50k for $13000
and a few other considerations.

One thing on the 912's... Don't forget that the early ones (e.g. 67) are short wheel base cars. In 69 both the 912 and the 911 got the long wheel base. If you are getting a 912, I would definately leave a flat 4 in the early cars. They handle significantly better with the shorter/lighter engine than the exact car with a six, less oversteer. More agile. Embarassingly slow, but honestly a more agile car. With care I would remove the original engine and store it and put a beastly T4 in it's place. It will be fun quick and light on it's feet. You can do this without cutting the car or destroying any value it migh have. In the early 912's there are 3 guage dashes and 5 guage dashes. The 5 is much more desirable. Also, just FYI, every early 912 I've seen has solid disc rotors, not vented and steel, not alumimum rear control arms. Took a load of that shit to the recycle station not too long ago.

Once the long wheel base went into production, the oversteer tendency of the 6 cylinder cars compared to the 4 cylinder (912) cars was hugely reduced - 1969. Don't misunderstand, all 911's will bite your butt on dropped throttle oversteer, but the short wheel base cars were especially enthusiastic. This year (69) has some intriguing possibilities for hot rodding. You can swap the front AND rear suspension over from any 911 including the SC's. Every 69 I've seen has been a 5 guage dash (though that could just be a run of luck). All of the six's fit but hotrod T4 would be easier as the motor mounts at the chassis are different 4 to 6. Not hard to swap, but if you are bent on keeping the hard bits original you would not want to do it.

The 911E? I just can't figure that car out at all... They weigh about 150 pounds less than an SC with the same equipment, surprisingly enough often cost about the same and go way, way slower... The fuel injection system is every bit as expensive as an SC fuel injection system to work on. I don't get 'em and never will.

"Hard and fast" - you crack me up Vince!

angela

Mickey,I just happen to have both books on my shelf, and will loan them to you. Send me your address on email and I will send them on Monday. 1980's Carrera Targa, now you are talkin'!

Mickey there are a bunch of 911's listed on craigslist right now. a lot of early to mid 80's available. seems like a good time to be in the market

Mickey, I agree with "Hard-n-Fast" buy an original SWB 66 or 67 store the original motor, keep the stock look including the 912 logo and replace motor with a VW perhaps with a 911 shroud.....they look so cool....you might even want to remove the 912 logo and just leave the holes, make them wonder......
Almost makes me want another one....

I've been told over and over by a bunch of different people that the '82 911 SC is the most maintenance-free 911 ever, with scant updates and yards of fun for spirited driving.
If I ever get past this 356 thing I seem to have going, I'll be considering one of those.
I'm a huge 912 fan, too, but color would be a deal-breaker. I think they're exceptional in a dark green over tan. They just don't seem to command 911 money, so I'd guess you either get a rock star or an abused orphan.
Shop carefully -- but keep this thread alive!

Will,
I wish I'd of looked here before I went to Barnes & Noble today. I picked up the 911 Buyers Guide this morning. Thats sooo much for the kind offer though.


Ouuuuuuch!!! My brain hurts! There isn't much room between my ears and it's PACKED with info right now.

I've come to a couple decisions. Well, actaully one decision and one almost definite. It's gonna be a relatively local buy. And I'm 90-95% sure I want a coupe (NO cabriolet, EVER. and Targas are a slight possibility) It looks like this'll happen pretty much when I find the right car.

The thing I'm struggling with is looks and style vs. conditon and reliability. I REALLY like the late 60's to early 70's body style. The downside is rust, reliability and power. I've found a few 80's SC's that with the proper mods made to the "problem areas" are said to be quite reliable, like Cory mentioned. So it's down to one or the other. I'm going up tomorrow or Monday to see a 1969 912 which looks "OK", we'll see.

There are two approaches I can take:
The first, and more probable, being to get an SC and "Back date" it. Which is to make it look more like an older one. I saw this in GT Porsche magazine done to an 87 made to look like an early 70's Carrera. It's something I feel I can do over time while still driving it. And I'm way more comfortable doing cosmetic stuff as opposed to mechanical stuff. That way I'll get the look but I'll have a solid chassis and a relatively reliable engine with good power.

The second is to find a solid rust free 60's 912 (not an east task with the budget I'm working with) and doing the Type 4 thing. Again, I'd get the body style I LOVE with the power and reliability I want. The other consideration with this one is finding a car that needs some work in regard to rust but can be done while driving (such as floor boards or something along that line). As long as the suspension areas up front and near the rear torsion bars are solid the rest is just cosmetic.

UGH!!!! God I hate being me! Having to make these decisions is so unfair! ;-)

Keep any and all info coming, specifically what