Long block -- To build or to buy?

Ted, I know you said you didn't want to go larger than 1915, but I'd recommend a 2110. 90.5 x 82 is a great combo.  Lots of power and torque.  Yes, it's a bit more work to clearance the 82 mm crank, but it's well worth it.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

You have the right idea if you look at used engines, but it's always a crapshoot. There are good deals to be had, but it's a lot more work. Don't look at any engines with H or F cases (even older than the H); the H series cases were a learning experience for VW as they tried to cope with the added heat from emissions regulations. After looking at the obvious (general condition, leaks, endplay), if still interested, I would want to see the engine with the heads off to confirm size and see the valves/combustion chambers.

 

There are also advantages, of course, going brand new from a reputable builder, as a warranty can be a wonderful thing if things go wrong, and you can build exactly what you want. It just costs more.

 

Are you looking for an engine that will go 50,000 or 100,000 miles before rebuild time? What power level? A lot of the equation is compatability of parts and how you keep it tuned. Gene Berg claimed that 78mm stroke engines regularly went 100,000 miles (and beyond) and even a properly built 82 stroke would go almost as far. Remember, even at 5,000 miles a year, an engine that only goes 50,000 miles could be considered a good investment if the fun factor is taken into account. And you will probably get more life from a bigger, mildly tuned beast than a smaller, higher strung watch winder if both are making the same hp. 

 

Bottom line- big engines can last a long time when properly installed, tuned and maintained. Don't be afraid of a stroker- they are a joy to drive, as the improved bottom end/midrange created by the bigger displacement and lower rod ratio is something to be experienced. Al 

2165 in a high state of tune, 33,000 and still humming along. I figure I'll get at least 50K(maybe a lot more) before I need to start thinking about some freshening.

 

78mm stroke by 94mm bore, FYI. Torque and high rpm fun, YEAAAAHAAAAA!

Ted;

 

Pat Downs at CB is only about 2.5 hours south of you.  You'd save on freight and close enough in a pinch for tweaking.

 

Art

Given all of the really bad engine parts available these days from China and elsewhere, I would tend to gravitate towards one of the several, reputable engine builders we all seem to hear about on here a lot.  

 

If they are building long blocks and full engines a lot and have developed sources for all of their needed parts, they have also found sources for quality parts that may be different from 'run-of-the-mill' parts sources, that will guarantee longevity in their engines and, therefore, happy customers.  They also know how to build a very good engine, on a daily basis, because they do a lot of them.

 

I also feel that a 2,110cc would give (a.) a super SEG for the owner over and over ( more than a 1,915 would) and (b.) at least 100,000 miles for that same owner.  That's at least 15 years of service at most of our mileage burn rates.

 

So call somebody like Pat Downs and have him build you a 2,110 long block or full engine.  You won't be disappointed.

Ditto on Pat Downs.  He built a 2110 for me many years ago that really fit my needs.

Ted,

 

You asked about building it yourself, or having it done-- I'd advocate for having it built. The reason isn't that you can't do it (you probably can), the reason is because there are precious few machine shops anywhere that can do work on these engines, and that by the time you gather everything up from 15 different places, and send your stuff out to a head guy, a crank guy, and a case guy, you'll be better off to just pay $1000 to have somebody who deals with all of this on a daily basis screw it together for you.

 

You didn't ask about the size, and you don't want an opinion, but I'll give you one anyhow. Do a 2110. The reason is: if you do a nice 69 stroke engine, you're still going to have to buy a new counter-weighted crank anyhow. A stroker is going to cost very little more. Everything else stays the same: rods, heads, etc. No matter what, I assume you'd be getting nice heads-- 40 x 37.5 or so, nicely ported.

 

A 2110 with some good heads, and a Engle W120 is a really, really sweet engine. Put a 1-1/2" sidewinder on it, some 40s, and roll that dude anywhere, anytime.

 

If you're going to pay for a nice engine, get a NICE engine.

Ditto, I scoffed at the prices of long blocks when I started but when all was said and done, I spent about the same. Use one of the good builders.

I can't agree more.

 

If'n you're gonna do it, then do it right and that combo just above is about perfect.

I have a Pat Downs 1915 that I love, but if I had it to do over I'd probably get a 2054 like he built for Tom Blankinship.  More torque down low.

Or a 2332 that he built for my car...lots of what you need.

 

As Gene berg used to say "buy the best and only cry ounce". It's a lot cheaper in the long run...

Thanks guys for the advice.

 

I hear you guys loud and clear. Have a reputable shop built it. I want torque, but I don't want a hand grenade.

 

I guess I had better start saving my money.

 

What's a 'bubble top case'?

 

Thanks again
Ted

A bubble top case is an aluminum aftermarket case that has the top "bubbled" to clear a longer stroke (86-90mm) crankshaft.

 

I've been wanting to bring this up for a while, and this seems like a good thread. This may raise a few hackles, but discussing this point might help someone deciding on a new build.

 

I've recently had a new engine built by a SF Bay area builder with a good local reputation. We ended up going with a 2026 mild stroker. This is sort of 'the next size down' from a 2110 - same 90.5 thick-walled jugs with a slightly shorter 78.8 stroke.

 

Why a 2026?  In the course of researching this project, I spoke to Pat Downs about building a 2110 (although I eventually ended up going with another builder).

 

Pat talked me out of a 2110. He said he wouldn't do a 2110 in a Speedster for a car driven in California's central valley where it frequently hits 100 degrees in summer months. He said there'd be more cooling issues with a 2110 in a Speedster in this climate.

 

This really puzzled me, as I've read so many SOC people recommending (and driving) Pat's 2110's, but he was really insistent about NOT doing a 2110 in a Speedster here.

 

He said just the small step down to a slightly shorter stroke would make a cooler running engine with almost the same grunt. I wouldn't think such a small change would make much of a difference. But these are Pat's words, not mine.

 

Don't shoot the messenger, guys.

 

 

As the number of posters indicate in this thread, Pat has built LOTS of 2110's, and they have performed well.  As smart consumers, we need to realize that it takes a guy like Pat, with his extensive experience with both a/c parts and labor, to really feel the pulse of this tiny segment of the engine-building market.  If I was having another a/c engine built, I would listen closely to what a guy like Pat has to say.  He has a big dog in this fight.  Good on ya, Mitch, for raising the issue.

No blood, no foul Mitch-- there's 31 flavors for a reason.

 

I understand the logic you are following, and in that vein-- I'd like to offer another option.

 

Have you ever considered a 92mm "thick wall" cylinder. The old Mahle 92s got a really bad reputation for going out of round, due to the thinness of the cylinder walls. Think of it like this: your case and heads need to be opened up accept bigger cylinders than stock. Malhle 92s fit in the same holes as 90.5s-- the old-style 92s are bigger on the inside, and the same size on the outside. That makes the cylinder quite a bit thinner-- thinner than any other cylinder out there. That's the way it's been forever-- so 92s just got a bad reputation.

 

94s go in bigger holes. They aren't as thick as 90.5s, and as a result are a bit more "out there". There's trade-offs: a guy can build a lot of power with a bigger cylinder-- the valves can be bigger (because you aren't running out of space), etc.. However, they are thinner than 90.5s, and there's more surface area to get hot.

 

That's where the "thick-wall" 92s come in. The cool thing is that they fit in the same holes (register) as 94s, so they are very, very thick. The thicker wall is a bigger heat-sink, and it has less of a tendency to distort when it does get hot. They're bigger than the 90.5s, so you can get more displacement out of them, and they have a (hypothetically) better piston ring seal than 94s when hot.

 

Your same 78.8 stroke (which is not a "little" more than the 69, it's most of the way to an 82) yields 2095cc with a 92mm cylinder. If you just went ahead and got an 82mm crank, your displacement would be 2180cc. FWIW, a guy on the Samba named Glen Ring is running just this engine with some Sims Stage 2s and an FK8 (with IDAs), and he's making really, really serious power.

 

Playing it safe, you could use the 78.8 crank, some thick-wall 92s, a W120, so 40s (Dellorto or IDF, I don't care) and some 1-1/2" headers, and be pushing up hard on 130- 140 hp (Orange County Correction Factor)... and it'd run for 100K mi.

 

Nothing's ever easy. There are tried and true formulas, but there's some newer stuff out there that is just plain nice. I've heard nothing but good stuff about them. I don't have them because when I bought the cylinders for the 2110, the thick-walls didn't exist yet. I don't have them on my 2276 because it's not that kind of engine.

 

I'd love to see somebody put one together. 

i have a 2 litre from a 914 for sale its disassembled, for 300.oo you can have it built to what ever, with plenty of power and long life. bill

 

 

Mitch- I've heard of this from Pat Downs before, and in an unmodified Speedster (which I think he's probably seen more than a few of) I can understand why he's formed that opinion over the years. But one of the keys to long aircooled engine life is adequate air intake into the engine compartment, and I'm sure most of the cars he's seen haven't had the firewall hole modification done. I think the experiences of members in past threads have confirmed that a 6 (28sq. in.) or 7" (38 1/2sq. in.) hole goes a long way to satisfying the air intake requirements of most engines, and if  ovalled (or widened) 3", adds even more (6" hole +3" in the middle= 46sq. in., 7"hole + 3"= 59 1/2sq. in.) air. This is not possible in a beetle, as the firewall is also the rear wall of the passenger cabin behind the rear seat.

 

In a Speedster there is about a foot of free space open to the road below between the firewall and rear of the passenger compartment, and at highway speeds develops positive air pressure which allows the fan and carbs to draw air easily (with the hole). Without the hole, the engine depends on the grille (which wants to pull air OUT of the engine compartment at speed due to the shape of the car) and any leaks between the compartment and the outside for air intake, which is not even close to what the engineers at Wolfsburg provided in the beetle.  IIrc someone reported (again, in an earlier thread) tufts of yarn (attached to the engine grille) standing straight up at highway speeds, and this tells me that with adequate air intake, airflow across the engine sheetmetal would be removing radiant heat from the engine compartment as well.

 

 For someone feeling still more air intake is needed, 4x5" rectangles could be cut into the sidewalls, and K&N even makes flat panel filters for those thinking that too much road debris would end up in the engine compartment (I have some part #'s written down of ones that I think will work, if anyone is interested).

 

No hackles raised Mitch; Mr. Downs has far more engine building and tuning experience than myself (and all the people here collectively, for that matter) and I respect what he's accomplished in this hobby/industry, but this is a case of not having enough information. Big engines can be done in our cars (when properly set up) with only the normal limitations (read Stan's post above for a part list). Al

Here you go, Ted.

Local, too!

 

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/cla...etail.php?id=1671848

That's what I'm having done-using a metal screen and shaped aluminum shield to block water, etc. from coming in the engine bay.

It looks like those Samba parts would make a 1835cc engine.

And those 92's would be the old thin walls...

So, let's say the case is brand new, and I determine that i'm going to need to have the case and heads opened up for true 1915's - what's an approximate of what that machining going to run? Does the AS41 case offer any benefit? Or am I still going to have it opened up for 'full flow', the third cyl are welded, etc? 

 

Obviously I'll need to get better pistons and cans... nobody needs thin walled 92's in an area where we often hit 100 degrees during the driving season. Along that same note, some folks say the 041 heads are kind of 'old school' as well. Are there any other 'gotchas' on those parts?

 

I have a good local air cooled mechanic who is willing to assemble the motor for me.

 

Just spit balling here... nothing is set in stone.

The AS-41 is still a magnesium (sp?) case with all the inherent cracking problems as time goes by...  I see C.B. Perf. has stopped listing mag cases and is now pushing the aluminum units...  The last price comparison I made had both at about the same base price....

The aluminum units can be had with raised roofs to handle truly monster strokers and the cases can be had pre-bored for the cylinders of your choice....  The real clincher is the offer of different deck heights to accommodate the stroke of choice...   Just a thought...  

Just order a CB 2054 from Pat Downs and life will be good.  I wanted to feel it in the seat of my pants when I was driving around town from 0-45.  It's more than enough engine for that and it also hums along nicely at highway speeds.  I agonized over the engine when building my car, but Carey served up this idea and I've never regretted it.  I could go bigger, but probably at the sacrifice of longevity.  I've never once felt myself wanting more power.

Never?

 

I can't really understand that. When it comes to power, more's better. The limit of how far I'm willing to go has to do with dollars, and nothing else.

All stock 1600 cases are pretty much the same (for dimensions and features), other than having either single or dual relief valves, so whatever you pick will need the same work. If you send it to Brothers VW Machining  http://brothersvwmachineshop.com/machine.htm $200 would do cutting the case ($65) and heads ($45) for larger cylinders, align bore if it's a used case ($60), drilling and tapping for full flow ($30). I would also get the oil galleys drilled and tapped ($75) so the passages can be cleaned properly, and the lifter boss height will have to be checked for clearance. Ask it they deck the case at the same time as it's bored for the larger cylinders, and whether they go off the crankshaft centerline or the case half, as the crank tunnel is never perfectly centered in the case, and can make hitting the same deck height across all 4 cylinders difficult (3 guesses how I know this, and the first 2 don't count). You don't need behind cylinder #3 welded. If the heads haven't yet been flycut to the exact combustion chamber size you need, do some calculating beforehand and have it done at the same time they are bored. If you use a shop more local they may be a little more expensive (don't do the same volume of VW stuff), but it gives you a baseline.

 

As you already know, the old-school (thin wall) 92's are trouble, no matter how good the deal is. The 041's (I believe they are the ones with larger intake valves) run hot and make it hard to get the jetting right throughout the rpm range, according to some people. You probably plan on keeping the 1 1/2" sidewinder for this, so just remember that the maximum size engine it will still rev to 6,000rpm with power is about 2060cc's. The chart (James Beahm's header size chart, Feb 013? Hot VW's) lists a 2110 maxxing out at 5850rpm with 1 1/2" primaries.

 

One thing a little more basic, that nobody's touched yet- if you decide to build a stock stroke engine (1776, 1835 or 1915), whether to use a stock or splurge for a counterweighted crankshaft. A stock engine holds together pretty well until revved past 4500rpm on a regular basis, and almost any aftermarket cam with dual carbs will easily blow past this. Coupled with the fact that bigger pistons are heavier and will lower that rpm limit even further, the only choice, really, is a counterweighted crankshaft. Now a stock stroke cw crank is the same price (or just a tiny bit less) than a longer stroke crank, so you might as well go a little bigger. Remembering the limitations of the exhaust mentioned above, I think a great size for this project would be a 78x92 (thickwall, of course!) or 2074. The thicker cylinders (more heat sink) would last forever in your neighborhood, the displacement combined with the lower than stock rod ratio will give it stump-pulling bottom end, and with some 40x35 heads, 40mm Webers or Dels and the right cam/rocker combo will pull to 6,000rpm. Ted, don't even consider messing with a half-pint engine; just step up to a 2 liter and be done with it.  140-145 hp and as I told you earlier, 98% of the other cars on the road won't be able to keep up...

 

Having someone local put it together is always good (as long as he knows what he's doing); if you should have a problem with it and have to take it back it's a lot cheaper than freighting the thing long distances (usually on your dime). By spending some time and helping him out with more basic stuff you'll learn a lot as well. He may even let you do some of the assembly. And then you don't have to buy all those tools.

 

(everybody see what I did there, going from stock to stroker so easily? think he'll buy it?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay okay... point taken. Buy once. Cry once.  I'll start saving my pennies.

 

This 'package' is an old school 1835. It could have been an affordable 1915, if it were really a 1915.  With that, there really isn't a clever way to  back my way into a larger motor.

 

Once I get enough money set aside, I'll decide stroked vs stock.

 

Consider this one closed.

 

Ted

 

 

 

 

 

Stroker vs stock?

 

Ted, I've been reading this board for three years and that one's never closed.

 

 

 

 

Come on, Ted; you should know by now we'll discuss how big you should build and how much power you need until way after you're done. But you do get the last word, don't you...

 

 

Mitch knows...

You can open a thread, but you can't close it......no way......we'll go on and on and on.......

 

I agree with Stan, there is no such thing as enough power.  I thought my V8 powered Miata was fast enough for about 6 months......

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

Lord Acton, April 1887

 Power tends to corrupt, and low-end torque corrupts absolutely.

 

- Sacto Mitch, July, 2014

 

 

 

 

 

Ted - I say get yourself a BIG-Ass motor with a sh*tload of power, then buy yourself a Pit-Bull with a spiked-collar you can walk around Cars & Coffee & Beer & Pickled Eggs while sporting your Mack truck belt buckle and Tap-Out t-shirt! 

Whoa... that's a lot of responsibility. I'm not sure I'm ready to take all of that on.

 

 

OK, leave out the Tap Out t-shirt! 

Ha! So I can't borrow your shirt and your korgi's collar?

I called the guy with the parts and told him that I thought he had the parts for an Old School 1835. He said he would update his ad. With that, $1100.00 for 1835 thin walled cans and old school heads? Isn't that a might bit steep?

Ted

I'm still reeling from the "I've never wanted more power" comment.  Never worked for me in either cars or career.

 

 Stan wrote: "When it comes to power, more's better. The limit of how far I'm willing to go has to do with dollars, and nothing else."

 

Boy, you've got THAT right.  When my son had his '99 Eclipse, he was making 680 dyno horses at the wheels (on a 4wd car...)  I'll let Lane comment on what that feels like during launch, but Chris regularly beat Z06 Vettes and Vipers by several lengths in the 1/4 mile, at a shade over 140mph.

 

OK, so then he looks at what'll it take to go to the next level and compete with the high-end "Tuners".  These are the guys pulling over 1,000 HP out of a 4-cylinder, 2.6 liter engine.  Entry fee was about $20,000 just for parts(!!) to get it to that level.

 

The most impressive car I have ever ridden in was his friend's Eclipse, but set up for road racing, not drags, and running close to 1,000 hp (again, all wheel drive) on a road course.  Launching out of corners in that thing was like nothing I've ever done since.  I don't wanna know how much money he had sunk into that car, but he and Stan could be good friends...