Long block -- To build or to buy?

Yeah, Ted, I think he's asking a lot as well. He doesn't mention whether the case is standard or has been line bored before (and how far it's been cut; it could be junk!) and whether it's been bored for larger cylinders. You would also torque the case together and look through the main tunnel to see if the center mains come together- if you can see light through the case halves around the bearing saddle the case is warped (been overheated) and not re-usable. The crank bearing dimensions needs to be measured and put in a pair of V blocks to check for runout (a use for those fine tools you would have bought!), and is it cast or forged? 

The heads look to have been reworked at least twice (look at the JCS and SIR stamps) but no pics of the intake mounting flange or combustion chamber so no idea what's been done to them. Is the flywheel cast (don't touch) or forged (and if forged, what material)? I would want to mount it to the crank and (using the V blocks) check it for run-out as well. There have been so many having problems with Scat lifters over the years- the lifter faces pit and flake (sometimes during break-in!), wiping out the cam, and if run long enough, just about everything inside and including the lifter bores. Scat has continually denied the issue, telling even professional engine builders and full time racers they don't know how to assemble an engine. Under a microscope, the lifter faces are porous (possibly wrong heat treat procedures). Is that brown grease or rust in the package? It doesn't matter, I wouldn't touch them. No pics of the cam, oil pump or rods, valve covers or pushrods; I'm sure he has them, but are they parts you want to use? And I don't really see a use for the piston/cylinder set. Have I missed anything?

I'm not saying all the stuff is junk; just that it needs to be checked closely. And there isn't $1100 there. You really have to be on your toes when looking at stuff people have.

Tip- I read once that when looking at used cases, it helps to have a used center main bearing-half that's first oversize; if the case is still standard it won't fit and if it's 2nd or 3rd cut it's obvious. Gotta get me one sometime....

And Tom, I disagree; for some of us, horsepower and going fast is an addiction. I just depends on how much money you've got. Gordon and (especially Stan!) get it...

I have a 1911 Harley Davidson and I really like its looks, sound and history, but I want more power so I think I'll put a V-Rod engine in it. Or maybe I'll just buy a Harley V-Rod motorcycle (designed and engineered to go really fast). 

I have a B-25 Mitchell Bomber and really like its looks, sound and history, but I want more power so I think I'll put an F-111 engine in it. Or maybe I'll just buy an F-111 fighter jet (designed and engineered to go really fast).  

I have a 1925 Chris Craft wooden boat and like its looks, sound and history, but I want more power so I think I'll put a cigarette supercharged V-10 engine in it. Or maybe I'll just buy an off-shore racer super-charged V-10 cigarette boat (designed and engineered to go really fast). 

I'm just saying...

No AL, Tom's probably right, I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with me.

I blame it on Larry Petrov and his stupid '75 Trans AM. Larry was a guy from St. Louis who was dating the sister of a friend when I was kid. He had a brand new Trans Am, with a 400/4 sp, and a bunch of white-trash, boy-racer speed parts on it (headers, cam, Holly double-pumper, et al). I was a 13 y/o boy with a typical mix of angst, confusion and testosterone. I begged a ride in the car, which was a mid-70s mix of 12" Cragar S/Ss, header-mounted glasspacks, traction bars, and a screaming chicken on the hood. It was tomato red, and the shaker hood-scoop (made functional) was the Pièce de résistance. I was powerless before it.

I can pretty much mark the time and place of my infection to the moment when Larry hit 130 MPH (on a country road) directly in front of my house. Teh disease ebbed and flowed for years, was in remission when I bought my first speedster, but which is presently fully metastasized. My (very patient) wife is on the edge of an intervention.

So, yeah-- I'm probably compensating for something. There are WAY cheaper ways to go fast, but I've got a really weird strain of this particular illness. I can only hope to spare other people who are also infected the missteps and mistakes that have marked my particular case.

If he's infected, the dude wants a stroker. Really, he does.

Jim Ignacio: Brilliant. Perhaps if I were wired differently... 

My patient and beautiful bride believes I need someone to help me help myself. I'm pretty sure she's right.

Jim I sure get that!  Thanks---keeps us grounded.

OK, so once in my life (thus far) I questioned whether something had "too much power".

I always used to ride and race off-road "Trials" motorcycles (Bultaco and Greeves) until the damage inflicted on my body became too much.

After I had been riding for a few years my older brother came home with a Norton Commando 750 built by John Dunstall.  It was a pure road-race bike (think Isle of Mann TT) and was a very highly modified engine coupled to a six-speed gearbox.  Of course, I couldn't WAIT to take it out so, totally without license plates I went on the same straight road that my son took Lane out on with the Eclipse.

I get out on the road, straighten it out and get ready.  Funny thing about Norton's and Dunstalls in particular - they are such cam-y, radical engines that they shake - a lot.  How much shake?  Well, enough that, at an idle (in fact, for most of the RPM range) reading the needles on the gauges is totally useless - the oil pressure needle simply bounced between the hi and lo stops.  

Anyway, I decide "this is it, Let's see what this thing can do" and get on it.  HOLY CARP!  This thing takes off twice as fast as a rocket - you can barely hold on under full acceleration.  I watch the tach needle swing into the red and bang a shift.  WHAM!  It's right back up there so I bang another shift.  WHAM!  It's back up there again so, Bang! Another shift, all three shifts within 4 seconds.  

Now I'm in 4'th gear (with two more gears to go) and it's starting to settle down a bit and I can see the speedometer just washing past 127mph and gaining!  About that time I ran out of straight road in favor of some gentle curving but heading towards a campus-like populated area so I justified backing down with not wanting to get caught (no plates, remember?).  Turned around at the campus and headed home but, as I got the start of the other end of the straight stretch I figured, "What the heck?" and ran it up to the shift point in 4'th at a little over 135, never shifted into 5'th, but rode it back to the house, pulled it in next to my brother and parked it.

"Whad'ya think?"  he asked.

"I never want to get on that thing ever again.  If I do it's gonna kill me." was all I could say.

THAT is almost what "too much power" feels like.  When you just KNOW it's gonna kill ya.

I have honestly never ridden a road bike since, just convinced that it's somehow gonna kill me.

Stan- Admitting it's a disease means I have it too, and I'm not sick. But you have to admit, there's nothing like your VW powered street car wailing on the black turboed Transam (complete with the gold screaming chicken graphics). Ok....maybe I have it a little bit....in the worst way......but you have to admit, when your little German krout-can economy car can walk on most of the stuff on the street....there is kind of a perverted little dig to showing up the traditional muscle car set....that I have always really enjoyed........

.

.

.

.

.

OK!...I'm sick!!! I have been for a long time!!! 

.

.

.

But somehow, I'm ok with it

Ah, power...  I have to admit that I took a great deal of pleasure outrunning a friend in his '77 'vette (350, 4-spd) with my little 1915.

As for Chris Nichols' Eclipse, I am still looking for my spleen.  It's somewhere on that road Gordon talked about.

It's ALL part of the Madness, my friends! 

Don't get me wrong…I LOVE speed! But my history with fast cars has proven more times than I care to share, that if you look like this...

…and you're driving one of these...

…or one of these...

…or one of these...

…its just a matter of time before you're pulled over by one of these...

…or one of these!!

Where do you keep all these toys?!.... 

I had a '73 Z1 with a Kerker 4 into 1.  I thought it was enough until one night in '83 or so when an Interceptor 1000 left me for dead at about 130 or so. I never liked the bike after that, & sold it just before UJMs were becoming valuable.

My '85 RZ350 was FAR scarier though. I put expansion chambers  (I think they were Vance and Hines, but I really don't remember) and some carbs from a Banshee on it. The front end of that bike would go light anytime I rolled on the throttle. Getting it 3 ft off the ground was just a downshift away... whether I was going 9 or 90 mph.

There have been a lot of bikes built since then that are way, way faster-- but in 20 years of riding, I never slung a leg over something more stupid.

I stopped riding when I realized that my need for speed well out paced my ability. I haven't been on a motorcycle in 20 years.

Now I just play with plastic toy cars.

Deeredriver, I owned a Kawisaki KZ 1000 back in the early 80s. One day, while riding along on the freeway I had to pull off to the side for something (can't remember what).  When I was ready to continue on with my journey I waited for the traffic to clear in the slow lane.  As I got back into the slow lane a car passed me in the fast lane as I whacked open the throttle.  I caught him when I shifted out of first. 

It's hard to explain the feeling of riding or driving something with a lot of power.  It is, I can tell you, addictive.

On another freeway cruise I thought I'd wind her out for a bit of fun.  There was almost no traffic, so I moved over to the fast lane and opened her up.  At about 125 mph the front end started to wobble and quickly turned into a tank slapper.

Scared the crap out of me.  Turns out big KZs had a problem with high speed stability.

I also owned a 76 KZ900 and it was a fast bike but in 1969 I bought a 69 Kawasaki HI Mach three and I survived.

Nothing at the time could touch that bike in a straight line, 5 speed all straight up which worked well as the acceleration was trying to rip you off of the seat. It put down 60hp to the rear wheel with 0 to 60 at 4 sec's and when you rolled the throttle the intake sound sounded like it was trying to ingest the whole planet.

Currently riding a 1994 Ducati 900 SS/SP and have a 1970 H1 that needs restoring and at some time it will get done but would take some serious thought about throwing a leg over it.

I love the smell of two stroke in the morning.

It smells like.... victory. 

What is that wimpy bike the CHIPS guy is on?  Look at his profile and the bike?

Small bike or just too many donuts.

Kawi KZ750 turbo, circa 1982. All the roll-on fun of the 1000, plus about 20 percent. Plus the lag-lash of the turbo whipping you around anywhere over 5000 rpm.

It was my friend's bike so I hardly got more than a couple rides on it. He managed to turn a 12.x at the drag strip--a very good time on a bike that was hard to launch without bogging or shredding the back tire.

He crossed the trap at something like 123mph and, in a moment of triumphant relief, sat up in the saddle. Nearly got blown off the bike.

It was all too scary for me. I never felt any need to own one after that.

Too many years of working in the Emergency Room. No bikes for me! 

Your located in the South Bay. When your ready there is a good machine shop that I use for several customers motors and he could assist you in building the right combo. 

This talk of stroked or not stroked depends on the application. These cars gain from a stroker. It's all about torque!!! Not high rpms.  78 or 82 work great with a good set of heads, valve train, cam and exhaust. Remember it comes down to looking at the whole package. Building a bigger cc motor does no good if the heads, cam, exhaust and carbs don't play into it.

Yes Anthony, you are right. The whole package matters.

And I've always liked more power. But there is such a thing as enough power. It's when the car boogies fast enough to go fast but not totally overwhelm the chassis. You know, like porridge, just right. If I get more power with what I have now, I need to make it stop and handle a bit better first.

I drove an original GSXR 750 once, 1986 I think? Scared the absolute crap out of me once the tach passed the mid-point, I think it really came on-cam around 5-6000. 388 pounds I remember. So nice. Never rode one again, way above my two-wheel skill level.

Anthony hit the nail on the head when he said, "It comes down to looking at the whole package."

When I had my 2275 built (fuel injection, FK8 cam) I reused my old, slightly ported CB 40x35.5 heads.  The engine had plenty of low end grunt, but really ran out of steam over 5500 rpm.  I'm hoping my new Steve Tims stage two 42x37 heads will give me considerably more power in the upper rpm range.

You can have it ALL with this thing of beauty, the "best" of both worlds. Probably need a football field to make a U-turn. Attention bargain hunters! Engine alone could be worth the money.

http://chico.craigslist.org/cto/4598631952.html

Ted,

Both Tony and Joel(jschlotz) helped me spec my engine. Ken Jansen in Belmont built both mine and Joel's engines. Tony is well connected in the ACVW world in the bay area and has done quite a few things on my car as well as a number of other speedster owners cars in the area.

Both of these guys are valuable resources and are relatively local.

This is what people refer to when they talk of the "combo". The parts that make a 1776 go to 6500 or 7,000 rpm (40x35 heads, 40IDF's or Del's, 1 1/2" exhaust, over .450" valve lift) are all going to fall short by a large chunk in a 2276, even with the same duration cam. An engine this big needs some well ported 44x37 heads, 44's (or maybe even 48's?), 1 3/4" exhaust and well over 1/2" valve lift from the cam/rocker package if power all the way up to the rpm goal is to be achieved. It's all about the air/fuel volume each component can move, and they all have to feed the engine while keeping airspeed within limits. Too big and the engine will not have as much power (as it could) down low, and too small and the engine becomes short-winded and doesn't rev with power to the rpm expectations.

I called CB and spoke with Pat Downs.  His recommendation was to go with a 90.5 x 74 (2005cc) stroked motor.  His parts, all balanced, end to end / static /cc'd and all of that ready to build = about 4212.00 and tax.  I'd have to drive to his place to pick it all up. If not, I'm in for shipping.

Then it's another $1200.00 for assembly. I'd also need to upgrade the carbs and possibly my header.

Maybe a nice mild 1915 is more appropriate for my pocket book. It would appear that the price curve for a stroked motor is quite steep.

I'll keep saving my pennies. Once I get closer to 3grand in the safe, I'll start looking around again.

1600cc's... it's where it's at!  There is always that pile of parts in Los Gatos.

I could low ball the guy in LG and get his parts, upgrade to a set of 94's.  Have his case and heads machined. Build a 1915 for under 2grand. 

This doesn't sound half bad, really...

Wouldn't get that low end grunt stump pulling torque I'm dying for...

Ted

So drive the 1915 for a while...see how you like it.  I had a (near stock) 1776 in my IM for a couple of years and it worked fine for 90% of the time.  Passing traffic on the highway was never fun.....

On a 2 liter your 1 1/2" sidewinder will work to over 6,000rpm, so you don't have to buy a new exhaust. And just so you know- 74x90.5 makes 1904cc's; to do a 2 liter with 90.5's use a 78mm crank and you'll get 2007cc's. If you bought that guy's pile of parts for reasonable you could sell the p/c set and the crankshaft and trade up to a better p/c set and a 78mm crank and Voila! it's a 2 liter (or a little larger!). Has the guy in LG said anything (valve sizes, porting) about the heads?

According to the guy in Los Gatos, all he knows is that they are 041s. There are multiple stamps on the head bodies, so I don't know what to think. Maybe they were 'rebuilt'? He said the case is NOS, but I'm pretty sure from the photos, it's not NOS.  There is some mung on one of the buttons/plugs on the case face. Makes me feel like maybe it's not NOSRegardless, that case would need 3 to 400 in machine work to open it up, free flow it, etc. The heads would need their own machining to get them up to the 94's.  Based on what I would use (if I went to a stroked motor) that package makes less sense.  If I were to try and use the crank, lifters (not likely), rods, case, cam and heads (buying new P/C) - it's on the edge of making sense. Barely. I'd have to get it for a song.

Good catch on the 74x90.5.  He listed two options,  74mm and 78mm. I wrote notes and merged the two in my head.

Even CB's 1915 is crazy expensive.  I saw what appeared to be a reasonable package at aircooled.net, but who knows if those parts are junk.

On a lark, I called him up.  He's not budging off of $1500.00.

He quoting retail prices on the parts. "The 92's are worth $400.00 and the Heads are worth $600.00".  They may be worth that to somebody, but not me.

He's also saying the case is NOS. Maybe I'm totally off base, but I don't think it is. The image of the case has what looks like baked on gunk on two case plugs. Why would there be a screw in the engine tin hole to the right of the crank? 

Anyway - there is no 'deal' to be made there.

I'll let that go and keep saving my pennies.

Damn!

Ted

If he's that determined to get full price for everything then you're better off looking somewhere else. There's no way that case is nos, the heads have been reworked at least once (and he's not giving information re porting or valve sizes) and the crankshaft could be cast instead of forged. All this along with the Scat lifters (which I wouldn't use for any engine) says this is a waste of time.

PS- And I didn't even mention the thinwall 92's....

And what Anthony said; you can get a very nice set of heads for just a little more than $600...

Hello Ted, just keep a close watch on the Samba as just last week I saw an aluminum bubble top case and cut for 94s for $350 and it was like new.