I think that this car looks awesome in the British Racing Green, and in fact it was the car that got me interested in thinking about having JPS build me a coupe. However, this vehicle had some teething problems which we all read about. I noticed that the engine was rebuilt with less than 6,000 miles on it. Is this normal for the 2332 engine? Anyway, here's the link. For my future build, I don't know if I want BRG or a deep navy blue.
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It's not normal for an engine to need rebuilding after only 6,000 miles. Even a larger stroker (such as your 2332) should go 50-60,000 miles, if redline is below 6500rpm and it's not driven like a scalded dog from the moment the key's turned on.
Kelly Frazer's car was delivered on the same truck as Tom Dewalt's and it has the same engine. He has not had to rebuild it and has considerably more than 6k miles.
It needed a rebuild because the piston pin circlip got lunched. There was a 3/8" or so groove in a cylinder wall from the pin, so that necessitated the rebuild.
I know, I was there. A few others and I pulled the motor and disassembled it. Then Tom sent it back and it got taken care of. We also put it back in after the repair. Bill Drayer, Cory, Kelly, and I worked with Tom and got it fixed. A couple other guys helped but that was the core group. A WHOLE LOT of other items were fixed as well.
That was a great time with a great bunch who came together and wrenched, because Tom needed the car whole, needed to sell, but shipping it back to the west coast was NOT an option.
The biggest problem was when we got the engine back, the pushrod tubes were all crushed on one side from a forklift! We changed them out, re-torqued the heads, adjusted the valves, and put it in. Major setback on a Saturday in the middle of nowhere. I don't know where Tom found those tubes, but he did!
When the annals of the SOC are written a highlight will be how so many gifted "members" came together to help while others sent some bucks to Tom to contribute to the work.
Still a fantastic looking car.
Putting an engine in with a fork lift.....WOW!
"I don't know if I want BRG or a deep navy blue." Well you're in luck then with now build wait. This BRG one or Chuck Martin's "french" blue one at BHMotors are both for sale.
Is this the same green one that had the yellow tinted windows on the samba awhile back?
Very interesting and informative responses. Thanks. I am still gathering information, but would be curious on hearing from owners of coupes as to whether they are reliable or just money pits. I live in Seattle, so I need a weathertight vehicle.
Oh boy, where to start?? For one thing, the middle of nowhere was in a barn in eastern PA, where Tom ran an RV sales park w/ his parents. And what we were really in the middle of that day was a hurricane, as I recall. Weather was terrible -- on the outside. Inside the barn just a bunch of elves doin' the deed. And no, we did not put the engine back in w/ a forklift. Engine was shipped, and during shipping, a forklift was used to move it, and the pushrod tubes were bent up. And it was a week end. And Danny is right: it was only by the Grace of God, that on that particular week end, there was a shop in eastern PA within driving distance that actually had a set of these tubes. We were deep into the work, and when it came time to unwrap the engine and slap it in, that was when the condition of the tubes discovered. But it all went back fine, and so far as I know, the engine was then and is still in fine shape. The CA builder that JPS uses made good on the engine work since the slipped piston clip, or whatever, was his fault.
As to weatherproof, this car was pretty much S/N 001, and there were plenty of issues there. On that week-end we fixed as many as we could find, sealing up obvious oversights in the original build. In the years since, JPS has improved workmanship and design details to a notable degree, and so water tightness is better. All of that said, I'm going to say that the Coupes are better than the Speedsters -- duh!! -- but still may not be what you have come to expect in a modern built production line car. And the Great Northwest is not exactly the greatest place to be if you like it dry. So, w/ this car or any other coupe for that matter, I'd expect some leaks to be seen somewhere if/when it rains hard enough. On the bright side: it is fiberglass, so it won't rust!
Ron, I've done a lot of weird things working on cars, but using a forklift was never one of them!
I remember Kelly getting real close to the bedliner floor paint, the fumes were getting to him, and us as well.
I forgot how wet that weekend was, but we were indeed dry with a good roof over our heads. Tom fed us, watered us with beer, and gave us a place to sleep. We got it done, and made a bunch of improvements to the car. I remember moving the fuel pump to the front and putting a relay on it. Cory took care of the engine tins. Bill and I did most of the motor R & R. Kelly painted the floor. There was more but that's all I remember.
"watered us with beer" = "but that's all I remember."
This really is a great community and resource. I remember reading about all the help Tom had getting his car sorted. I just forgot that after the car was sorted by the SOC'ers that Tom had to sell it due to the economy tanking. I guess that's why it ended up in Tejas.
I see a few coupes for sale with very low miles, and a couple years ago there was a nice silver coupe in Portland that was sold after about a year and a half of ownership. That makes me a bit nervous, but I have also read a lot of happy people, including people from the People's Republic of the Pacific Northwest who love their coupes.
Some seem to love them and then there are some coupes that seem to change hands annually. It would be interesting to compare serial numbers to ownership numbers to see if there is a correlation.
Carlisle 2008. Tom Dewalt's coupe.
Tom had BOTH his coupe and Speedster at Carlisle that year. When he went home, Chris and I followed him with Tom driving the coupe and Chris driving his Speedster (me in the truck). BOTH of them leaked like a sieve.
When Chris got out of the speedster, his sneakers were soaked, as were his pant legs half way to the knee. He said that he had about 2" of water under his seat and whenever he slowed or stopped, all that water would rush forward like a surfing wave and collide with the front bulkhead, then the wave would curl back and crash over his feet.
We heard the exact, same story from Tom DeWalt in his coupe.
Very interesting and informative responses. Thanks. I am still gathering information, but would be curious on hearing from owners of coupes as to whether they are reliable or just money pits. I live in Seattle, so I need a weathertight vehicle.....
I see a few coupes for sale with very low miles, and a couple years ago there was a nice silver coupe in Portland that was sold after about a year and a half of ownership. That makes me a bit nervous, but I have also read a lot of happy people....
I get the impression from your posts that you're looking to daily drive whatever you buy, and you have to understand that these cars are not just "jump in and drive", like most new cars today. Any VW aircooled powered and suspensioned replica (Speedster or Coupe) is based on automotive technology from the 1930's and '40's, and there's way more regular maintenance to keep these cars running than a modern car. If you're not yet "mechanically inclined", you soon will be, learning how to do oil changes, valve adjustments, replacing points and setting ignition timing, adjusting carburetors, washing out and oiling air filters, adjusting fan belt tension, lubricating the front suspension, chasing down and fixing occasional oil leaks that will crop up (engine as well as transaxle), and a host of other things the guys on here will tell you they regularly do to keep their rides in tip top shape. This will also mean a small, but fairly sizeable investment in tools (more than a hammer, screwdriver and an adjustible nut stripper [crescent wrench], need you will...). The alternative is to find a mechanic that knows older generation VW's, and he will be seeing your car (and you will be paying $$ out to him) every 2-3 thousand miles.
For most, these cars are fairweather toys, have modern daily drivers in the stable, and part of the "deal" with these cars is knowing it intimately by doing your own maintenance and occasional repairs. Being "in tune" with your car, when out on the road you'll hear a change in exhaust pitch or feel something different in the steering (to give 2 examples) when something changes and needs attention. It may be relatively minor and be something to be taken care of before the next ride, or you may be pushing the engine too hard for the weather conditions and have to back off the gas pedal a little bit.
I live in Vancouver, BC, and know the type of weather you live in (it's a tossup which one of us gets more rain yearly; for both locales it's a lot!). I also know what VW based cars are fully capable of, as I drove and hot rodded Beetles for pretty much the first 15 years of my driving career (finally traded a baja bug for a new Toyota 4x4 pickup with heat! in 1985), and can tell you that it will take true dedication to daily drive even a coupe (the lack of real, almost instant heat will sooo suck) for 5 months of the year.
One of the reasons we see low mileage cars for sale so often (I think) is unreal expectations; guys have visions of jumping in them and roaring off on a moment's notice, and discover the reality. These cars are drafty (and leaky) so they don't hold what heat there is well, are not as much fun (usually more so for your significant other) when it's wet and/or cold out (so they don't end up driving them as much as they envisioned) and they spend too much time in the garage needing work done. The dream doesn't exactly fit the reality.
I'm not trying to dissuade you; I just want you to know what you're gettng into. My suggestion- buy the car of your dreams, but don't sell the daily driver until you've experienced the toy through a Seattle winter.
Hope this helps. Al
Hi Al, thank you for your post. It certainly is helpful. My in laws and my wife's brother live in Vancouver, BC, and it's a lovely place.
Fortunately I have a little Mazda for my medium-size daily commute, and my wife drives a very nice Acura wagon for a handful of annual miles. My potential coupe would very much be a weekender or a nice sunny Friday commute to work. The problem is that I have a one car garage and Mrs. Barrett has in no uncertain terms claimed the garage as hers. I reckon I could purchase a water tight car cover for the coupe while it sat on my driveway during the months of continuous rain. (Although to be honest, our winter this year was basically a non-event.)
I can handle some leaks if the water accumulation is more due to the vehicle in motion during a storm, as opposed to the vehicle being stationary and not used in inclement weather.
Also, time is not something that I have much of. I understand that I will have maintenance, but I would probably have to fine an air-cooled VW specialist. I could budget this as I don't think that I'd put on more than 2,000 miles per year (if that). However, even if I have a specialist look after the car, I would probably opt for the least temperamental set up. Likely the 1776 cc engine (although I am curious if this is too underpowered) with the basic small carb set up.
When Chris got out of the speedster, his sneakers were soaked, as were his pant legs half way to the knee. He said that he had about 2" of water under his seat and whenever he slowed or stopped, all that water would rush forward like a surfing wave and collide with the front bulkhead, then the wave would curl back and crash over his feet.
I had a very wet experience in Dunn, NC last year to the extent that I had a couple of inches of water in the left map pocket and I had to dry out my shoes, socks, jeans and even my underwear that night at the hotel. The carpets were likewise soaked.
My seats and carpets are still out of the car and I'm going to install a couple of seaplane grommets on each side of the floor pan.
Cool idea David. i have often wondered about how such a thing might work. My first car (ca. 1966) could have used a pair of these.
As to my Speedster, it is not water tight, certainly, But it does not admit water by the gallons either, just leaks around the sidecurtains is what I would say. I went around the underside very carefully when I got it and used copious amounts of undercoating material at every pan/body seam I could find. I give it an inspection from time to time, and touch it up as needed. My builder, as do others I'll bet, use expanding foam as one of their seam filler materials. If you see any of this exposed on the outer surface, spray it w/ undercoating. I have not logged hours upon hours in driving rain, but I have been through some good gully washers, and of course quite a number of Carlisle events. My floor stays dry. The first Carlisle in particular was very instructive. I learned about rain hats for Webers (had hydro-lock in one cylinder), and how effective a car cover can be (bought a tarp that very day). If the prospective Coupe is going to sit outside, a good OUTDOOR car cover is a must. It will keep the water out, even if the car is pretty tight anyway. California Car Covers is a great place to shop for these. I got mine there, custom fit for the Speedster.
All of the leaks I have ever had in my car come from above, most around the side windows. I did have some leaks around the windshield posts and the wiper shafts, but some rope caulk cured that pretty easily. If I could just figure out the seal at the front of the side windows I'd have a pretty darn dry car in the rain.
Ugh!
~WB
Having owned both a JPS Coupe (Bali Blue) and a Vintage Speedster (Meissen Blue) for some strange reason the Speedster had better heat than the coupe, I tried everything to improve the heat in the Coupe. Replaced the heater boxes with "real German" heater boxes, insulated the tubes running along the bottom, plummed them directly from the heater boxes to the tubes, skipping the frame cross tube, sealed all air leaks etc.,etc.
Didn't drive the coupe much in rain, however when I did it was mostly water tight.
The Vintage Speedster was excellent, reliable, dry and with the top up and side curtains in cozy both in the fall and spring here in Pennsylvania. Didn't drive it in the coldest part of the winter.
Chuck
...However, even if I have a specialist look after the car, I would probably opt for the least temperamental set up. Likely the 1776 cc engine (although I am curious if this is too underpowered) with the basic small carb set up...
A common (and often heated) discussion topic here.
I started out with similar ideas and had Vintage Speedsters install one of their 'stock' 1915cc engines. I don't need something fast, I thought, just reliable.
What I learned is that reliability is much more dependent on the quality of the build than the size of the motor. Quality air-cooled VW parts are much harder to find than they used to be just a few years ago, and you're not likely to find them in the stock motors installed by the lower-end builders - like VS and JPS.
And the parts are only half of the story. A reliable engine takes time to build. There's a lot of careful matching of components, custom fitting, precision machining, balancing, assembly, tweaking, and re-assembly until everything is just so.
VS and JPS make great cars for the money, but for the prices they charge, they can no longer afford to install carefully built engines made from quality parts. You stand a much better chance of having a non-temperamental engine if you pay a bit more to have an engine builder of established reputation build you one to order and have VS or JPS install that in your new car.
That said, most of the cost in that engine will be in the builder's time and in the higher quality parts he will use. There won't be a substantial difference in cost - or reliability - if he builds a 1600 or a mild stroker 2110. But the 2110 will allow you to cruise comfortably at freeway speeds and not start sweating every time you approach a hill with an SUV on your tail.
There are a ton of threads about the merits of various engine sizes on this site. Some searching will turn up hours of entertaining reading. I only comment here because, about 18 months ago, I also started out with ideas of keeping the engine 'simple and reliable' and have spent much time and money learning the errors of my ways.
I have driven air-cooled 1800cc 100hp IM and up hills it was a real problem, a 2110 makes it able to hold the road uphill. I had 30K on a Pat Down unit with no problems, I would not go with less. As for water, both my IM's were fairly watertight but the occasional drip at the windshield and side window area happens depending on the wind direction. Fogging is sometimes an issue, but my new IM with vintage air is much better at defrosting. If your in Seattle, drive 2 hours north and see Henry, your so close it makes perfect sense for support, and I think his cars are more watertight from what I hear.
Size matters, but it's not the only factor. One man's 1915 is not the same as another. I have ~45,000 miles on a Pat Downs-built 1915 that cruises easily at 80 mph. I've driven it to Carlisle, PA and back eight times now and never had any trouble keeping up with, or passing, traffic. The displacement is but one of the specs that determines an engine's power.
Again, Mitch Toll for President.
Great post, Sacto Mitch.
As Mitch said, an increase in size doesn't necessarily mean a decrease in reliability/life. A properly blueprinted and assembled 2 liter (or larger) engine that revs to 5500 or 6,000rpm with power can last almost as long as a stock 1600, will have twice the hp and torque (or more
) which will make the car way more fun to drive and have more than enough power to get out of the way of that big suv that Mitch keeps on having trouble with on the highway
. Even a well built 1776, 1835 or 1915 with the proper components will make 50% more power than said 1600, be reliable as hell (with proper maintenance and not driving the snot out of it constantly from the moment it's backed out of the garage) and be a hoot to drive.
As Lane said- "One man's 1915 is not the same as another." An engine can be thrown together with whatever parts are available and reliablility and life will be questionable at best (a huge problem with today's lack of quality, properly built and machined parts), or painstakingly assembled only after every part is checked and measured to ensure it's built and machined properly as it's supposed to be. This takes time, and one of the reasons some engine builders charge more for their product.
Something that doesn't get mentioned here enough- the power is in the heads!!! When comparing engines and builders, remember that you can't throw stock 1600 heads on a larger engine and expect it to make substantially more power. Stock valve dual port heads will limit an engine to somewhere around 75hp, and slapping them on a bigger beast won't make any more power; the engine will just make that power and be "done" at a lower rpm. It will be a beast 'till it runs out of air (literally) but not the best choice/wizest investment for the combo. Properly ported stock valve (35mm intake, 32mm exhaust) heads are capable of 120hp, and for a smaller engine will often be the best choice for overall power and mileage, as they will deliver the best torque through the bottom end/midrange in most stock stroke engines. Most 2 liter and larger engines will require at least 40x35 heads to allow it to breathe/make power to the cam's/carbs'/exhaust's limit.
I know I'm off on a tangent, but while I'm thinking of it- VW (back in the day) recommended heads be removed from stock engines for service (worn guides replaced, new exhaust valves, seats and intake valve faces recut) at about 40,000 miles, as the magic number for breaking exhaust valves was around 50,000 miles. If your engine is approaching this kind of mileage it might be a good idea to talk to your engine builder (next winter, of course!). I'm not sure if exhaust vave breakage still is an issue with stainless steel (Justin? Pat? anybody else?) or it's simply a performance degradation thing these days with seats/faces and guides wearing. I know, this should have been brought up last fall...
Lane- Do you know what's in your 1915?
Only a little, Al. It has wedge-ported heads that Pat told Carey he was doing "something special" to, but I have no details. With them, the 110 cam (I think), the Weber 44IDFs, the A1 Sidewinder (I added), and the Pertronix Flamethrower II ignition (I also added) I am supposed to be somewhere between 120 and 130 hp. I know that even at 80 mph I still have plenty of punch left in it. If I had it to do over I'd probably match Tom Blankinship's 2054, which has even more torque. I believe this engine is based on specs originally from Aaron White.
If you can't tell, I'm a big CB Performance/Pat Downs fan.
Air cooled all take a beating now days - especially valves and cams/flat tappets. The dreaded lead in gasoline (banned by EPA way back) was there to lubricate valves/valve seats. New 10-15% ethanol "enriched" gas burns hotter (it's alcohol!). Non-ethanol gas is often available (especially along our coasts for boaters) but is more expensive. Add to that, common oils do not contain ZDDP (Zinc dialyldithiophosphate) so cams/lifters wear faster. ZDDP oils are common in racing section FLAPS or specialty oils like Brad Penn/Royal Purple.
Lane, I was lobbing no aspersions at the 1915.
It is a noble engine size. I think what we are both saying is that build quality and component selection are more important than displacement alone.
Stan, thanks for your support, but if nominated I won't run and if elected I won't serve. I think I just don't have what it takes to be a Washington twatwaffle.
I'd rather not be thought of as holding a public office or having a pubic orifice.
And I sensed no aspersions, Mitch. No worries.
2212 is a good sized engine. The stock FI can't be beat either.
... Likely the 1776 cc engine (although I am curious if this is too underpowered) with the basic small carb set up.
Can you find out what parts (cam, valve sizes, whether there's porting, carb(s), c.r.) are in the engine?
Al, I don't remember what parts were in Tom's motor. I do remember it was a 2332, and although it had decent valve sizes, the intake ports were small and round. Too small IMHO. If I was 30 years old or less, I could probably remember the parts. We didn't split the case so I have no idea what crank, cam, or lifters. We pulled the one head off and pulled the offending cylinder with the wayward piston-pin circlip.
I think Wild Bill took photos, possibly Kelly Frazoo.
