Lowering Front Suspension

After reading the various build kits and VW magazine, I'm a little confused as to the right way to lower the front suspension for the speedster kits.

The build kits say that the front end needs to be lowered and go about telling you how to cut the front cross beams and then pivot and re-weld things back together in order to move the front arms lower.

In some of the VW magazines, they talk about using drop spindles to lower the front end. That way you can use stock shocks and the ride should be similar, just lower.

Can you just use drop spindles to lower the front end on the speedster kits or does the cut apart and re-weld do other things that you might not get with the drop spindles?

Any recommendations or advice from experienced builders out there?

Thanks

Chris

Lowered spindles are by far the best option. This will lower the front two or more inches. Stock shocks and original geometry of suspension is retained. The only problem is that the caster is changed when you change the front height without changing the rear.

Also using the adjustable beam with the dropped spindles allows for fine tuning height.

Eric, I believe the question was whether he needs adjustable beams if he has lowered spindles? In other words is the 2

IM builds their cars with dropped spindles and Avis style adjusters on the front axle beams.

I believe lowering with just the spindles should be enough. Unless the rear is lowered drastically. The rear lowering on a swing axle is limited by how much camber you want though.

Eric, are you really sure that 2 1/2 inches is enough? I didn't think so. I understood that 4 inches is more like it. Do you own a Speedster? How much has it been lowered? Don't you think that most people who read this page would not be lowering just the front-end? But would be lowering them together as part of the process of creating/building a replica?

You could start with the dropped spindles and see if that satisfies your fancy. If not, then you could go to the dropped beam. I have just the dropped beam on both my cars. They ride a little rigid, but handle great. Also, I can honestly say that if I went any lower I'd be in trouble. In fact, I plan to pick them up a tad in the rear. I do love the slammed look and have found that the travel on the suspension is adequate. I've never noted a lack of travel and I have truly tested these cars to the hilt. I think they handle great! The reason I plan to pick the rear up a little is I do bottom out the rear sometimes.

(Message Edited 10/25/2002 2:38:24 PM)

Just to give you all the details, I'm doing the flared kit, and have a '69 bug with IRS.

Sounds like from the above comments is to start with the drop spindles and if needed do the adjustable beam.

I will be lowering the rear suspension, but from reading up on that it doesn't involve replacing parts, just getting some tools to release the pressure on the rear tension springs so you don't kill yourself taking things apart.

Thanks for all the feedback!

(Message Edited 10/25/2002 8:36:10 PM)

Ron,

My Speedster is a few thousand miles from me still. I am purchasing one in a few weeks. My answers are based on my beetle experience. The limit to lowering your car is more based on how low you can get the rear. With swing axle rears the swing arm can go only so low before your camber gets ridiculous. /--\ IRS is also limited by clearance. This really limits the whole lowering process.

Back in the old days we didn't have a lot of options. We lowered the front by removing leafs from the front beam and using short shocks. This lowered the front 2-3 inches. I did this to my 62 Beetle. I drove it for a year like this. The car looked cool but was pretty stiff.

Finally someone started offering the adjustable beams. This was a great option but essentially created the same geometry and low travel
of my previous method.

Then the lowered spindles were offered to the world of beetle low riders. I immediately purchased a set, repaced my springs and stock shocks and was amazed by the improvement in handling of my beetle. I have had this set up since.
The speedster is the same chassis as a beetle, and the suspension adjustmenst are identical. I have seen how Kirk of VS sets up his cars. What I see is an adjustable rear spring plate , adjustable front beam, and lowered spindles. Very classy and tunable set up.

Remember if you lower the front too much more than the rear you end up with a car that doesn't return to center after a corner. This gives the feeling of a light front end (no caster). They make caster shims to insert behind the lower beam mounts to correct this.

Hope I didn't say too much. Good luck.

(Message Edited 10/25/2002 8:41:36 PM)

Guys, unless I,m mistaken both John at JPS and kirk at VS only use the adjustable beams not dropped spindles. This came from both horses mouths. But I,d call for yourself if you want confirmation.

I wouldn't know a dropped spindle from a dropped baby (ouch) and as I bought my car used I am still sorting out things, but there was this thing on what I assume was the 'bar' everyone's referring to and when my car was up on the rack the other day I had the guy give it a couple twists...(I had been motivated by all the fender/wheel /ground measuring that went on the month before) and Voila!

When my car came off the rack, my front end was lower. It looks just right for an old style race car.

I emailed John at JPS and here is his response:

On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 Jpsmoto356@aol.com wrote:

We use the adjustable front beam with two adjusters in it. For a Speedster replica you are not lowering the front as removing the excess front spring the result of lightening the front end. To understand this imagine you have removed the engine from your pickup truck. Now the front end raises up. Do you lower it by spindles or springs? Springs. Spindles will leave you with too much spring for the lighter front end and cause bounce. With an adjustable front beam you can use the two adjusters to dial in preload on the springs to the proper weight of the car, but not until the car is finished and full of gas and oil and you have driven it at least 10 miles. The person you buy your kit from should help you with this.

I think that John at JPS left out two important words form his second sentence. I think he met for it to read as follows ( the missing words in brackets):

For a Speedster replica you are not lowering the front as [much as] removing the excess front spring the result of lightening the front end.


In other words, I think he was saying that you are lowering the front of the car but more importantly you are reducing the among of preload on the springs. The bottom line here is that the Speedster chassis should set lower to the ground than the stock Beetle. If you do that in the front only by reducing the preload (i.e, with adjustable beams), you are messing with the front-end geometry and that should effect the steering. My approach is to handle the lowering with the lowered spindles and the preload with the adjustable beams. This is a more expensive approach but I hope it

I think there,s some confusion here. Because the speedster weight is less in front, the stock spring rate ( preload ) is too stiff. Therefore, you need to reduce spring rate (preload) by adjusting the beam adjusters. Yes this will affect the geometry, but is the best way to get the proper ride stiffness. Using dropped spindles lowers the front fine and doesnt effect the geo. , but you end up with too stiff a ride. Using both usually means by the time you get the preload (spring rate) right , its too low.

The reason I know this is because I was going to use dropped spindles, and I called Kirk & John. If you use the beam adjusters only both guys recommended not going too low. You will also need to have camber shims installed, I used 2, and have the front aligned. the bump steer is not bad if you dont go too low. Other parts that can be used are, lowered ball joints (have more arch of trravel), shorter shocks, and bushings to eliminate bump steer.

Chris and Eddie rock!

Sorry, preload does not effect spring rate.

I agree if you have a choice of one method or the other, adjusters are probably the way to go. I'm planning on using both. If I need to do something about spring rate, then I'll see about perhaps removing one of the leafs or getting leaves with different rates.

By the way, who were ypu saying was confused? Me? I think I understand, but if not I'd sure like for somebody to explain to me were I'm confused.

The only confusion I saw was reguarding what we thought John was saying in his post. Since I spoke to him recently on this subject I thought I would relay what I understood he ment. Please correct me if Im too far off base John.

Eddie, I don

I give up.

Ron,

Don't give up we're just sharing our thoughts here.

This may be the case where removing a leaf would lower the stiffness. Removing a spring leaf would lower the spring rate and using the adjusters will change the preload. Right Ron?

Therefore if you remove the preload on just the upper spring tube you remove that set of springs from the equation. Most of the weight is now riding on the lower set of springs. This in effect should lower the spring rate as well. The upper springs would only start working on heavy compression. Almost forming a progressive effect. Hmm.

I still think like Ron that both the spindles and the adjustable beam are the way to go.

(Message Edited 10/27/2002 8:25:50 AM)

Sorry Eric but it gets a little frustrating when you go off on these tangents. If what you

I think we agree more than you think. I think that there is a lot of ways to work a beetle suspension. Ride height, spring adjustments tire pressures, Caster, Camber. My beetle is a low in the weeds car and I've tried a few different techniques. It seems that there is more possibilties than I knew of. This discussion has made me think about possibilities I did not consider. I will be getting my VS in a few weeks and plan on trying some of these techniques. My limitation is the snow that may arrive at the same time.

No offense taken just enjoy the brainstorming. Heated discussions in my house are common and expected. Let's just have fun and share.

(Message Edited 10/27/2002 8:48:10 AM)

Sorry I missed the last part of this exchange. I truly believe there is no one way to set these cars up. like race cars everyone has what they think will win. The IM cars have more wieght up front so they use adifferent set up than JPS or VS. Everybody does their research and decides which set up they want to use. The beauty of this forum is the exchange of information. Without expermentation we wouldnt find better solutions.

Eddie, I agree with what you

Wow, talk about lots of information! I've decided to do both the drop spindles and adjustable beam. It's going to be more money, but not that much more and from all the discussion on this topic, in the end, doing both gives me many more options once I have the speedster driveable.

Chris, since the welded spindles will move your wheels out 1/2 inch or so, you might want to get the new cast spindles. They're a little more expensive. That's what I'm doing because of clearance concerns.

I got the front disk conversion kit with drop spindles from CB Performance. I'm almost 100% sure these are forged not welded spindles. Also looked to be a really good price for both the disk brake stuff and the drop spindles. Also ordered the beam adjuster so I should have the best of both worlds. And if I want to really get fancy I can take some springs out!

I just had dropped spindles put on my tub and man does it look cool if you want to see before and after pic's let me know send me an email @ derekj@cris.com

There is one more method that is contriverial by many but, it will soften the supenciom and and allow a better ride. I did it to my dune buggy and it handles fine and rides like a caddy. . you remove a few of the springs from the beam alowing 50 lbs per spring and 100 lbs for the wider one. Try to keep the wide springs at all cost. The trick that makes it safe is to replace the missing springs with shim stock at their normal bolting locations and hold them in place with electrical tape untill secured. You can use your spare springs to make shims. Don,t forget the center points, you will break springs when you tighten them down with out the shims. It does work. It helps to now the weight of the front of your car before. I used my brothers racing scales. and yes I did it to the D and took it apart 4 times untill it felt just like the Beetle. Maybe a schose firmer.

The drop spindles will help your Shock selection. and the adjusters will give you the abilty dial it in perfect. I pulled 6 springs out of the top tube and 2 out of the bottom. Keep the center shims 6 " or longer so you can slide the unshimed end out to attach those shims.

A lighter car with a weaker springs setup Is the way I think the Germans would have done it.If I can find somweone with a big lathe I would even cut the rear torson shafts down a bit to weaken them.

(Message Edited 11/8/2002 6:14:55 PM)

Barry,
Why'd you choose 6 & 2 to remove, and how does it ride now? The shims you used were made from one removed spring?

At present, I can only bounce the front end, comparing it to a healthy bug, It's a schouse firmer and has just the right amount of return when you let go after bouncing it, And yes, I did use the spring stock. It also helps in the assembley to grind the tips of the shims to help them slide in the beam.

I did the same to the dune buggy years ago, and it had more springs removed than this It handles great, So after trying it Kirk Duncan's way and hating the results I re grouped and started all over, I even bought a new beam ,But did not have to use it.

I was able to reposition the adjusters and weld them back in. I was useing a lowered shock at first and found that a drop spindle lets you use the stock ones.

Thats when I re did the beam and pulled the springs.

The adjusters work best if they are welded to the stock set screw locations and you can adjust the car up from there .


And your right, it would have been better to do both alike, but greasy springs are hard to tape and they had the factoy tylo grease on them , a must save item. It was a very good product . And I don't think it's availible any more

(Message Edited 11/10/2002 2:25:39 PM)

Thanks Barry. I am going to try this .. probably in the spring. get the CB drop s and remove some springs. I am not keen on repositioning the adjusters. Under what circumstances is that neccessary? Did you have any trouble replacing the bushings?

OH yes, the bushings are a pain, If you forget to screw a bolt back in the boss while everthing is a part you will find your self using a coat hanger to get it back in place took me over 45 minutes.

The springs will not come out with the bushing attached remove the clamping bolt of the adjuster first rotate the springs and the bushing untill the set screw apears in the slot then remove the set screw on the bushing and losely screw the clamping bolt back in the set screw hole now your bushing will stay in place and let you pull the springs . Make a pattern of the spring positions, from the driver side, and dont mix them up.

If your beam has the adjusters mounted in the stock beetle degree angle you can use stock spindles and a 2 inch drop shock, That is the way I went. If you use the drop spindles and stock shock,you will have to move them even futher than I did. I can't say for sure If the adjusters will let the beam fit back on the car. after moving them that far.

However, It may be possible to tweek the bushings by swapping mount holes and reposition the springs a quarter turn, leaving your adjusters alone, I haven,t tried it but I think it will work, perfect when you take . the drop spindles into account. its gonna be close .Its a big guess, I admitt ,But no parts are altered this way and I have a few extra springs to spare ,if you need one to cut for shims That way you can put it back like it was if it does not work out.

But I think it will!!


Also Inspect your springs for cracks I found one broke when I first dismantled my( NEW Rebult) beam from So Cal Imports ,,so much for cheap labor. and the steering box was a dud. The guide roller was bad., some one dropped it during assembly.



(Message Edited 11/11/2002 5:56:09 AM)