Master Cylinder

Gordon-

As you may (or may not) recall, Tom Dewalt and Kelly Frazer both had their cars built AFTER I quite publicly and honestly (to my own detriment) outed the problems with my "Brand X" (obviously a JPS) speedster. They both thought (and said) that they would get the build quality they expected because they were going to see to it that the builder honored what he said he'd do (doggone it!). I'm not sure how much more clearly somebody could be warned. If it were (realistically) possible to search the archives, you could read how directly they were told to curb their expectations. They did not, and the cars were delivered with the exact issues they were warned about.

There were well documented issues with VS paint and body work at the time as well (Rick A's comments about nose-hairs in his paint job were pretty darned funny). All this stuff was happening 10 years ago, and like "Groundhog Day" it comes back again, and again, and again. Guys get half-baked, Friday-afternoon build quality, and don't disclose the "issues" for fear of wrecking any hope of warranty or resale.

Forewarned IS forearmed, but only as long as the warning is heeded. Todd said it best himself:

The old site did have an owners review section, but it had basically the same rating for each builder.  It said little about individual experience the way a forum can.  There are some very happy and some very sad owners. A number doesn't represent satisfaction and when all manufacturers rate 9-10, a rating made little difference in peoples decisions.

-=theron

Perhaps a partial solution to avoid Todd's experience (and many others in the past) is to present a replica builder with a veeery comprehensive quality control build sheet that they'll agree to adhere to prior to plunking down $$ and going into contract.

This document follows the build from day one to delivery.

It consists of dual initials per specific item; one is the assembler/wrencher, the other is the 'inspector' verifying the work was correctly completed...A long document covering every assembled item...right down to who wrenched in the oil filter and who checked that the bolt was torqued to spec.

A further stipulation is that the customer receives (on a regular time schedule) a faxed replica of this quality control build sheet whether he lives in Milwuakee, Miami, or Monterey.

Should the builder baulk or refuse to implement this Control Build Sheet...then that in itself is a ringing warning bell to take your money somewhere else! This build control document could be available as an upload off the SOC site. There might be initial resistance from builders...but, if EVERY potential buyer presents one even the most reluctant replica builder will gracefully accept it if he wants to cultivate the good will of the community and stay in business.

To hope that builders, turning out irratic quality, will somehow straighten up and fly right on their own is simply wishful thinking...we as a community have to be proactive and INSIST on quality and safety. Gordon details the past histories of crushing disappointments... I for one, never want to read again of a nut that was finger loose, an item totally missing, or worthless touch up paint of the wrong color!!!! 

Perhaps participants of the upcoming Carlisle and Morro Beach events...those that understand the components and complexities of a replica build...can suggest what items should be included and in what sequential logic they'd be listed.

My 2 cents anyway    

Difficult? No. Likely to happen? Also No.

If somebody is doing just fine for themselves running their business just as they are-- why in the world would they take on a customer with a list of demands that would require redoing the entire system they have in place. Perhaps you missed the part where Todd said there were 10 cars being completed along with his.

We think we're the center of the replica speedster universe here, but we represent a fraction of the actual owners out there, and an even smaller fraction of the prospective buyers. We can't even get site regulars to believe the stuff they read on this site regarding "issues" and the inability to get some builders to change how they do (or do not do) things for out-of-state buyers. The capacity for insanity (if insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result) is nearly infinite.

We are expecting this site to provide some impetus, to push builders into building better cars. We don't have that kind of horsepower-- we never have, and never will. I sold my second car when I came to the cold, hard realization that JPS had built the best car he was going to without me standing over his shoulder. The things he could do well, he did well. The things he couldn't do were never going to get done by him. My choice was to build a car myself, or have it built by somebody I knew would be as particular as I was. Thank the Lord for Henry Reisner.

We collectively welcome new owners to the madness. The answer here is to "stop the madness".

We need to stop acting like "it's all good" just because some guys get decent cars from problem builders. "75% of the time it works every time" is not the same thing as somebody providing consistent build quality. It's madness.

Yeah, Kias have decent build quality for $17K. Kia's new plant in West Point has the capacity to build 360,000 cars a year. For the US market. That represents a fraction of their worldwide production capacity. There's an economy of scale that makes comparing what a Kia costs to what a replica Speedster costs a matter of apples and oranges. We need to stop that. Hand-made custom things cost what they cost. If somebody could build a decent replica for less (and sell it at a profit) I'm sure they would. SAS builds a replica for $30K, and has gone bankrupt twice (three times?) in recent memory. Expecting top-notch cars for below market prices is madness.

"Sorting" is to be expected. Brakes that don't work, paint that is lousy, and steering that is unsafe does not constitute "sorting". Jack Crosby's car had the pan cut incorrectly-- it took Jake Raby a TON of time to try to straighten the driveline out. This is not "sorting"-- this is horrible build quality. I had a car with a $5000 hardtop with a glue-in headliner with raw edges and a header that didn't pull within 1/4" of the windshield frame in spots. I fixed it for another $2000. This wasn't "sorting", this was just criminal neglect. It's madness.

When a prospective new buyer like Annalise or Todd posts excitedly about their new car, and how great it's going to be, and how it's all good-- we need to stop drinking the collective Kool-Aid, jumping on the happy-time bandwagon, and then acting shocked (SHOCKED!, I tell you) when the inevitable happens. It happens a lot. It's happened a lot for 10 years, at least. This is madness.

A buyer does not always get what he pays for, but he always pays for what he gets.

I hereby nominate President Stan of Stanistan as our site Wise Man.

We need to make sure that our expectations, and those of excited potential owners, are realistic.  Replicas built by hand in low volume will rarely be perfect, even from the best manufacturers implementing the best QA processes.  That said, the types and numbers of defects seen on some cars in recent years is alarming.  While I don't want to ruffle the feathers of owners (many of whom are my friends) who have great relationships with their builders, I do believe that it is foolish not to call out the more egregious problems as keeping them quite only enables their repeating.  Like Gordon, I don't want to hear of a member here who died due to a safety-related defect in their beloved Speedster.

Want a perfect, issue-free speedster for under $25,000?

Buy a 2013 Mazda Miata.

You got that right, Terry.  My wife's '09 MX5 (that's what they call 'em now) is so perfect it's almost boring. It does everything well and doesn't leak or shake or backfire or any of the old sports car stuff.

However, when the weather is nice , there is no doubt which car I want to drive.

(warts and all)

Very good discussion going on here.

I think we, as a small replicar community (I hear ya, Stan, we're like 10% of the total), have it within our power on here to generate a build checklist with quality expectations for basic safety features (properly working brakes, lights, steering components), as well as some basic cosmetic things (Like actually having paint on all expected painted surfaces as well as color-sanding where necessary).  Once we agree as to content we could make it available on the site to prospective new buyers to use or not as they wish - a "stickey" at the top of the pages that they could read or print.  At least we make it available to them and maybe get some people to think about things they might have ignored before they plunk down their money or later, before they make the final payment and take shipment.  At the very least, it would give a buyer things to look for and check off as OK or not and a subsequent punch list for the builder before shipment.

Personally, I have no problem going to a builder and doing a very thorough combing through a new car (from anywhere), but I have built cars and know what to look for. This checklist should be for the non-mechanical person who believes that they are buying the quality of a Mazda Miata (and I'm not knocking Miatas, here - they have damn good product quality) and not knowing how to look to see if it has been built right or not.  It should also be useable by any "mechanic" they wish to hire to do this screen for them.  Let's face it....not a lot of mechanics get to work on these cars that much so a guideline/checklist for them would be gold.

This should be do-able, non-threatening to the builders, a great help to prospective buyers and maybe save someone from getting hurt in the future.

Don't ya think??

I'm with stan on this one. I cant tell you the bad quality that was my build. Most importantly was the paint. I have painted a number of cars in my garage and the quality was much better than what i got from vs. I spent a week color sanding and buffing my car to make it "BETTER". For 25k I should have gotten a prefect paint job.

They miss drilled the emblem holes and never patched them, They actually delivered my car with these holes. When I brought the car back, they patched it worse that a high school kid in shop. When I brought up the bad quality, i was told the car would have to be repainted and they were not going to do that. 

Its clear 2 years later that they did not do the prep work correctly either. All the coating that they put in the engine compartment is flaking off. I have tons of chips in the paint after only 2500 miles. The front of my car looks like it have 100k miles on it. 

Thats just the paint. I had gas spewing out of the tank, no check value was every installed. BAD! I had suspension issues, Electrical issues all kind of things to SORT on my 25k car. 

When I complained everyone got on my case. Kirk is a great guy, yes he is, but His cars fall short in the quality department.

For the price of these cars, we should not be sorting much. I get that its a hand built car and problems will need to be addressed, but paint is something completely controllable for a company that builds a hundred cars a year. 

I applaud TDR for telling it like it is, it's people that bought and own a particular car that have the right to state his opinion about the quality and condition he received it in or the company that built it. There are too many off handed ill informed comments made against a builder or builder's car by people that don't own one and in many cases never have seen one. I own a SAS Cabriolet, one of 26 or so SAS cars on the road, I've heard too many remarks made against this builder from people who know little or nothing about the history of the company or it's owner. I've explained the facts about Steve Lawing and SAS, time and time again on this forum and yet there's still untruths and innuendos being posted. If you want to know anything about SAS, JPS, Vintage, IM, TR, CMC or any other builder ask someone that owns one, don't start spreading BS about some one else's car or builder.

My only comment I can make that concerns every builder that sells a turnkey product is they better make safety their number one priority; otherwise they may end up in court like Ford, Toyota and other big name companies who's cars ended up killing someone.

For the record--the pan of my Speedster was not cut incorrectly--it was just fine.

There was an issue with the suspension in the rear that I believe was from a former owner who used the car when it was a Bug and made some mods.  Jake compensated for that isue to where the car rides like silk. He welded in a $400 CSP Chrome traction bar making a rigid structure that you won't see in even the"high dollar" Speedster brands.  He wasn't happy about the extra hours he had to spend (but didn't charge me for the extra labor!)  

great discussion........  as posted I am in the process of having a suby powered speedster built by Special Edition.  before even talking to builders I spent a lot of time lurking and reading through this site and others.  I was also able to ride in a couple of cars from different makers as well as interchange some emails with others. Although I became more enthusiastic to have one of these cars, I became sufficiently scared to up my budget considerably and buy new.  At my age I have bought many cars but have never bought via this process.   I feel extremely comfortable working with Carey and his team although one can't help but feel a tinge of trepidation after reading through this thread.  I am going through the extra expense to have the car shipped to Carlisle (and then home) to not only participate with you all on the drives/get togethers but also to get advise from many eyes with years of experience looking over my car.   Once I have some experience driving, maintaining and getting to know my speedster, I expect to post some honest critiques and opinions.  Hopefully I'll add as a resource as others research their entry into the madness.

I just want to complement everyone on what a great discussion this is. There are feelings involved, yet everyone is working together to help.  It just feels great to read through a thread like this and see the ideas distilling into a resolution that may make the experience of future owners even better.

-=theron

Sorry 'bout that, Jack. I had misunderstood what the issue was. FWIW, your car is fantastic.

The information and contacts that I have made from this site has been worth much more than $40 bucks. I once heard an expression that has stuck with me most of my life and that is this:

"If man could learn from man there would be giants riding upon the shoulders of other giants."

If you are a Speedster replica owner then this site is your best friend. The information written by other members within is invaluable. Support it you tightwads!

Come on Theron - that is a really unfair way to put it.  I will support.  I have the link you sent me to use paypal...just need to do it.  Been a little pre-occupied lately and it is the last thing on my mind.  I agree that this site needs to be supported by all that use it and again, you will have my support.  But I feel that was a little unfair plug for the site.  I just spent with shipping and title over $29,000 and the builder tells me to get it from the SOC site?  What the Fruck is that? Put it on the passenger seat for me when you ship the car.  With the money they saved on my paint, surely printing out a few pages in black and white and using a staple to put them together shouldnt have been an issue?   I will pay the 40 bucks so that I can continue to learn and be part of this group.  But YOU AND THIS SITE are not responsible for the contents of my car, the maintenance of my car and certainly not the manual that should come with my $29,000 car.  I DO NOT ACCEPT your wanting to send me the manual.  I will decline and delete...  I will pay my dues because the site deserves it.  But, to think the builder says go on the SOC site and get it just makes me REALLLLLLLY PISSED...

So I dont hear about it - although I think what I wrote above is dead on...I just paid my $49.  I am a member.  SO ZIP IT

Worth every penny!

Yes sir! A number of the mods to my Speedster were reverse engineered from UFO's.

so if you pay the $49 for the manual does that mean manuell will come fix the car?? or is it an E-manuell?

    Ill be heading to jax in a few weeks, possiably like to see your car&go have a drink if you need one(I dont drink but my wife will have 2 for me) I hope you get it sorted and find some stress relief.Ive had to deal with new power boat owners that bought $250,000 thrown togeather power boats and I know it's stressfull, and when there isant a dealer to directly deal with.... did you have any hair on your head?? do you now?? ittll grow back , just keep smilen and dont ever forget the light at the end of the tunnell......it's probably a train.

I dont drink either.  I used to be THE BEST drinker I knew.  They say no one likes a quitter, but in this case they were wrong.  BUT - would love to have you over or meet you out to see my car.  I am looking forward to showing it off to everyone!  And no, I have barely any hair left...but I attribute that to being the best drinker and smoker I know. LOL.  Let me know when you are coming up...lets get together.  bring your tools...I have some things for you to do!  LOL

Tom B.     Thanks....actually I couldn't feel more comfortable (relaxed) with Carey and company as my build progresses.  I'm  looking forward to getting all your inputs once I get my car to Carlisle.  

Give me your address and I'll mail a copy of the VS manual to you today for free.

looks like Ill be in jax for 17th & 18th, march(sun&mon, then heading back home on tues)

I was going to say something about the manual but I didn't. I suppose VS could spice it up a little with some hot babes posing with a few cars - sparcely clothed and full color of course. Perhaps put a list of options and photos to go along with them. I dunno.

Absolutely; the VS Manual just skims through the basics. You'll do a whole lot better just getting the Official VW Service Manual.

Tom B, TRahn: I'm with you guys. I'm a Spyder guy, and Carey is building my car. I have visited and talked with all of the Spyder builders -- some of whom also build speedsters. 

In all of my life, I have never received customer service, or felt that that I was dealing with someone who had the kind of integrity, honesty, and pride in their brand than Carey and Kevin Hines. Not at the Ritz Carlton, not at the Four Seasons, not at Neimann Marcus.

I have been so happy with Carey, in fact, that if Carey sent me a bill tomorrow, I would pay him whatever he was charging me -- without even reviewing the bill. I would even be tempted to send him more, as I fully believe that he deserves every penny. He has built my Spyder as though it were his own, and refuses to do anything that compromises quality.

As an intensive care doctor for babies with plenty to "worry about" every second of my day, having Carey build my car relieves me of any additional preoccupation about the quality of my car. In fact, it makes me even more excited to drive it, as I know it will be amazing.

-Anand

Would be great if Carey built Coupes too!

Ditto from me