Choices, gents. Get what you want or learn how to want what you got.
As a guy with less than $5k in my car (and it looks it!) I'm pretty stoked when she runs (at any speed), stops (without looping) and the wheels don't fall off. I'm in the middle of an adjustable beam install now and am even psyched-er that the front end is going to actually bounce--as in it will have a "spring action suspension" like a real car--when I'm done with that. $350-$400 well spent, I say!
Some of you have enough $$, and horsepower, in your Speedies that such primitive delights as I enjoy will not cut your muster. So be it. All progress in this world is owed to the man (and woman) for whom too much is never (good) enough.
While I aim for equanimity in all things VW-based, I have deep respect for, and derive great kicks from observing, you madmen.
And you are all quite mad. You know that, right?
"And you are all quite mad. You know that, right?"
Depends who you ask. I don't think I'm crazy, but my wife does.....
Depends who you ask. I don't think I'm crazy, but my wife does.....
Guys,
Sorry I have not replied in a couple of days. I will be shure and get on here and answer questions this week.
Sorry I have not replied in a couple of days. I will be shure and get on here and answer questions this week.
Shuie,
Actualy we found with a few minor adjustments to the rear swing axles even with a regular KYB shocks handle pretty nice. The reason being is that the rear camber gain keeps the rear end tight. It would improve the rear swing axle by adding a rear set of coil overs and loosing the torsions, then adding a set of spring plate replacers with hiems so the toe could be adjusted. The last option would be to add the IRS pivots and change out the trans to an IRS model then install our complete rear kit.
Ed,
your right an additional $2400 for the complete rear kit. Or like Dock said $9000 for us to build you a complete chassis with new pan halves, already shortened, with both front and rear kits installed. Basicaly ready to set your body on, add brakes, wheels and tires and you'll have a roller.
Robert,
I don't know if you know this but you can run 944 front and rear brakes with our kits.
Actualy we found with a few minor adjustments to the rear swing axles even with a regular KYB shocks handle pretty nice. The reason being is that the rear camber gain keeps the rear end tight. It would improve the rear swing axle by adding a rear set of coil overs and loosing the torsions, then adding a set of spring plate replacers with hiems so the toe could be adjusted. The last option would be to add the IRS pivots and change out the trans to an IRS model then install our complete rear kit.
Ed,
your right an additional $2400 for the complete rear kit. Or like Dock said $9000 for us to build you a complete chassis with new pan halves, already shortened, with both front and rear kits installed. Basicaly ready to set your body on, add brakes, wheels and tires and you'll have a roller.
Robert,
I don't know if you know this but you can run 944 front and rear brakes with our kits.
I'm a novice, sorry for my silly questions.
Is your chassis kit for the Beetle or the 356?
If I use it, what 356 coupe body will fit it? I could only find complete coupe turnkeys.
Is your chassis kit for the Beetle or the 356?
If I use it, what 356 coupe body will fit it? I could only find complete coupe turnkeys.
Vincenzo,
There is no such thing as a silly question. Our kits have been designed to fit under any type one based vehicle. Meaning it will fit under any beetle and just about every kit car currently on the market. If your going to buy a turnkey car that is going to be built for you we can drop ship the kits to the builders so they can install it as they are building your car.
There is no such thing as a silly question. Our kits have been designed to fit under any type one based vehicle. Meaning it will fit under any beetle and just about every kit car currently on the market. If your going to buy a turnkey car that is going to be built for you we can drop ship the kits to the builders so they can install it as they are building your car.
Chassis is on my wish list...maybe summer!
Now I have to go collect more cans.
Now I have to go collect more cans.
KEVIN, EMAIL SENT
Sorry old email address. I emailed you back.
I was cruising some other forums and noticed that people wanted to know what and why one kit is better then the next. So I posted this up to help point out some of the things we looked at. Hope this helps out in anyone still trying to make a choice.
Just looking at them the Mendeola looks to be beefier and stronger. Welding is always fun so I wouldn't mind that, but I'm not to keen on the big in your face advert for their company on it, kinda vain. I'd say leave that off and give me a decal I could put on the window if I wanted to. The UK model looks good, but I like the videos on the eyeball site. What's funny is in my Jegs catalog you could buy one of these for a Mustang for about $2k or less, so why are these so expensive? I like the other products on the Mendeola site and wouldn't mind an entire pan from them, if it didn't cost so much. I'm not naive, I'd rather pay for quality than for some cheaply made crap, but someone on these websites needs to say WHY their product is better than another, not just because they say so. Look at Jack Raby at aircooled.net YEARS of testing go into his products and he's not afraid to show off the test data to prove why his stuff rocks.
Sorry,
I had to jump in here on this one.
Like Jake Raby we spent and spend endless amounts of time to fully refine our products. If you look into our transaxle line we've been known for quality products.
Our new chassis line went thru a lot of testing. We first looked at the Red 9 and the Eyeball, we also looked at the Pete's a-arm bolt on kit. They all had good and bad points. Just for the sake of examples here are some of the things we did and did not like. Also to achieve the high level of performance we wanted, we had to design our own.
Please understand we are only pointing out our findings before designing our own. Hell, we made our front end handle so well we needed to design a rear system to tighten up the rear suspension also. Our rear kits features the same great Fox racing shocks, a rear sway bar, toe and camber adjustments. Originally we did not intend to sell these to the public, however after I drove one of these and being a VW guy for over 20 years, I knew I had to make these available to all type 1 based vehicles.
Red 9:
The good
good design
very strong
The bad
no sway bar
shipping cost
wait time to clear customs
very little adjustability
steering knuckles being bolted onto the spindles
Eyeball:
The good
bolts on with out removing the body
The bad
Difficult adjustments. in a-arms
No sway bar at the time we looked it over
Bolts being in sheer
Overall design seemed to light weight possibly a little weak?
Reeling on the sheet metal portions of the pan to support the twist
the use of tie rods in key pivot positions
Pete's A-arm kits
The good
plenty strong
bolt on
uses a stock beam style bolt on frame so that the weight of the car is supported just like it was originally Bolts not in sheer
The bad
not very adjustable
no sway bar
not really designed for street cars more for off road
out weighed a stock beam by 12 lbs
Cost (you still have to get spindles and buy the sway bar)
As far as the MENDEOLA name on it. It's not that we are trying to show off or act like we are better then anyone else. It is to protect our investment. We have 6 major lines of transaxles in current production and a few years back we had a company copy three of the 6 lines. They splashed almost every part. You could even see our Mendeola name in their first cases. Needless to say they saw the inside of the court room a few times over this. Having our name on it does two things. For us it protects our investment. For the customer it say quality. If you ever want to sell your car it will add value.
Just looking at them the Mendeola looks to be beefier and stronger. Welding is always fun so I wouldn't mind that, but I'm not to keen on the big in your face advert for their company on it, kinda vain. I'd say leave that off and give me a decal I could put on the window if I wanted to. The UK model looks good, but I like the videos on the eyeball site. What's funny is in my Jegs catalog you could buy one of these for a Mustang for about $2k or less, so why are these so expensive? I like the other products on the Mendeola site and wouldn't mind an entire pan from them, if it didn't cost so much. I'm not naive, I'd rather pay for quality than for some cheaply made crap, but someone on these websites needs to say WHY their product is better than another, not just because they say so. Look at Jack Raby at aircooled.net YEARS of testing go into his products and he's not afraid to show off the test data to prove why his stuff rocks.
Sorry,
I had to jump in here on this one.
Like Jake Raby we spent and spend endless amounts of time to fully refine our products. If you look into our transaxle line we've been known for quality products.
Our new chassis line went thru a lot of testing. We first looked at the Red 9 and the Eyeball, we also looked at the Pete's a-arm bolt on kit. They all had good and bad points. Just for the sake of examples here are some of the things we did and did not like. Also to achieve the high level of performance we wanted, we had to design our own.
Please understand we are only pointing out our findings before designing our own. Hell, we made our front end handle so well we needed to design a rear system to tighten up the rear suspension also. Our rear kits features the same great Fox racing shocks, a rear sway bar, toe and camber adjustments. Originally we did not intend to sell these to the public, however after I drove one of these and being a VW guy for over 20 years, I knew I had to make these available to all type 1 based vehicles.
Red 9:
The good
good design
very strong
The bad
no sway bar
shipping cost
wait time to clear customs
very little adjustability
steering knuckles being bolted onto the spindles
Eyeball:
The good
bolts on with out removing the body
The bad
Difficult adjustments. in a-arms
No sway bar at the time we looked it over
Bolts being in sheer
Overall design seemed to light weight possibly a little weak?
Reeling on the sheet metal portions of the pan to support the twist
the use of tie rods in key pivot positions
Pete's A-arm kits
The good
plenty strong
bolt on
uses a stock beam style bolt on frame so that the weight of the car is supported just like it was originally Bolts not in sheer
The bad
not very adjustable
no sway bar
not really designed for street cars more for off road
out weighed a stock beam by 12 lbs
Cost (you still have to get spindles and buy the sway bar)
As far as the MENDEOLA name on it. It's not that we are trying to show off or act like we are better then anyone else. It is to protect our investment. We have 6 major lines of transaxles in current production and a few years back we had a company copy three of the 6 lines. They splashed almost every part. You could even see our Mendeola name in their first cases. Needless to say they saw the inside of the court room a few times over this. Having our name on it does two things. For us it protects our investment. For the customer it say quality. If you ever want to sell your car it will add value.
When the time comes to "spec out" my Speedster replica build I would definitely consider a Mendeola transaxle. There's little substitute for actual on or off road experience; ie, you have a good reputation here, based on a "track record" which seems to confirm the design/ engineering; it seems your criticism of others' offerings are based on evaluation of a picture of "other systems" as opposed to real comparative stress tests or other tests. Specifically, you mention a bolt being "in sheer". What do based this on? What grade of bolt is in question? What stresses/limits are we dealing with in a given scenario...? No disrespect, but even Porsche factory stuff has these limits and DOES break. I'd like to see some comparative test results here, not "seems like" this or that. Again, I reiterate that Mendeola products are among the very good products out there. I am somewhat skeptical of your claims made regarding the competitive suspension systems, either to the "pro" or the "con" side of the argument. You are obviously proud of your product and SHOULD be. I would advise to stay away from undue criticisms of others without some kind of data to back you up. That's just me. If you are wondering, I have been involved in space-borne and flight engineering design for over 30 years-I like to see ACTUAL data sheets. I don't want to step on anyone's "wiennie" here, just sayin'...
The one thing on the red9 kit that worries me is the way the steering arm bolts to the spindle. Those bolts are the smallest hardware in the design and they're loaded in single shear. I suspect the size was just chosen based on the width of the stock spindle at that point and not by actually calculating the required bolt shear strength. Every other 2-piece spindle I've seen, both factory and aftermarket, had those bolts in tension.
The eyeball kit has half its mounting bolts attached to an unsupported sheet of 18 gauge sheet metal. This strikes me as about as smart and as safe as welding a roll cage to your floor pans.
That's not to say these things will leave you a smoldering twisted heap in the ditch. These cars are light especially in front and thus the suspension loads are small so they may be perfectly fine. But those design choices do concern me. Probably be crushed by an SUV anyway.
I don't think the way the eyeball kit used tie-rod ends on the inner pivots are a problem in this case because they're loaded in tension. Where they should not be used is with high vertical loads such as in the lower outer joint. The spring loads there will pull apart a regular tie-rod end. A joint with a high pull-out rating like a regular lower ball joint must be used. And using an upper ball joint where you should have a lower one is no substitute either, for the same reason. There isn't a clear enough picture to tell what they've used in the lower outer pivot but I suspect it's a regular ball joint in a collar.
The only problem I see with the a-arm.com kit is the spindle design really limits the turning radius. Fine for off-road, but a pain in the ass on the street.
Hard to tell what the mendeola kit is using for adjustment other than slotted lower pivot points for camber. Probably shims for caster similar to red9. Then again, half the adjustment points on the eyeball kit are superfluous.
The eyeball kit has half its mounting bolts attached to an unsupported sheet of 18 gauge sheet metal. This strikes me as about as smart and as safe as welding a roll cage to your floor pans.
That's not to say these things will leave you a smoldering twisted heap in the ditch. These cars are light especially in front and thus the suspension loads are small so they may be perfectly fine. But those design choices do concern me. Probably be crushed by an SUV anyway.
I don't think the way the eyeball kit used tie-rod ends on the inner pivots are a problem in this case because they're loaded in tension. Where they should not be used is with high vertical loads such as in the lower outer joint. The spring loads there will pull apart a regular tie-rod end. A joint with a high pull-out rating like a regular lower ball joint must be used. And using an upper ball joint where you should have a lower one is no substitute either, for the same reason. There isn't a clear enough picture to tell what they've used in the lower outer pivot but I suspect it's a regular ball joint in a collar.
The only problem I see with the a-arm.com kit is the spindle design really limits the turning radius. Fine for off-road, but a pain in the ass on the street.
Hard to tell what the mendeola kit is using for adjustment other than slotted lower pivot points for camber. Probably shims for caster similar to red9. Then again, half the adjustment points on the eyeball kit are superfluous.
S Slater,
Please understand that while we are proud of our products and spend a great deal of time and money testing to prove said products. My posting my last post was simply to help inform what we saw as the pros and cons of each kit. We are not trying to sling mud on anyone's designs or saying that anyone's kits are faulty. In another forum we were being asked to explain the differences between ours and the other kits. If you read the post carefully I also stated that we had not even intended on selling our suspension stuff by itself. It was only going to be available to car buyers. Sorry if you took it that way. Also I do not think posting test results of said kits here or any public place would good for anyone involved. That is why the comparison was written as a visual observation. Hope this clears things up. Again we are NOT trying to sling MUD on anyone.
Please understand that while we are proud of our products and spend a great deal of time and money testing to prove said products. My posting my last post was simply to help inform what we saw as the pros and cons of each kit. We are not trying to sling mud on anyone's designs or saying that anyone's kits are faulty. In another forum we were being asked to explain the differences between ours and the other kits. If you read the post carefully I also stated that we had not even intended on selling our suspension stuff by itself. It was only going to be available to car buyers. Sorry if you took it that way. Also I do not think posting test results of said kits here or any public place would good for anyone involved. That is why the comparison was written as a visual observation. Hope this clears things up. Again we are NOT trying to sling MUD on anyone.
Kevin-I have no doubt that Mendeola would offer anything other than the best product they could design. Engineering is a process of "iteration", i.e. on-going revision (improvement). It's great you ARE actually evaluating other companies products. (I'd try to work with one of the Speedster replica companies to develope a test "mule"
for your suspension systems. That could be a win-win for you in expanding your market; and you might be able to gather some feed-back from users.)
for your suspension systems. That could be a win-win for you in expanding your market; and you might be able to gather some feed-back from users.)
"The eyeball kit has half its mounting bolts attached to an unsupported sheet of 18 gauge sheet metal. This strikes me as about as smart and as safe as welding a roll cage to your floor pans."
Isn't the stock beam only mounted with four bolts? It seems to be able to withstand the stress of vigorous cornering. The Eyeball kit has those four center mounting points, plus the added side supports for additional support. I agree-not the best method, but not bad for a 'bolt on' kit.
Ron,
The thing you have to understand about the factory beam vs the eyeball is that the bolts on the stock beam were not actualy in shear. They actualy held the beam down into sadles on the pan. In this configuration the twisting stress goes dirrectly into the tunnel of the pan. It is not un-common to see off road VWs actualy stretch and break the bolts holding the front beam on.
The thing you have to understand about the factory beam vs the eyeball is that the bolts on the stock beam were not actualy in shear. They actualy held the beam down into sadles on the pan. In this configuration the twisting stress goes dirrectly into the tunnel of the pan. It is not un-common to see off road VWs actualy stretch and break the bolts holding the front beam on.
Shucks, just use GR8 wherever you have concerns. Cheap investment. Lifetime use.
As the Offshore Boat racer Rocky Aoki famously said as he was heading his new Kevlar made race hull straight towards an island, "Not to worry, boat is stronger than rock"!
As the Offshore Boat racer Rocky Aoki famously said as he was heading his new Kevlar made race hull straight towards an island, "Not to worry, boat is stronger than rock"!
spindle-to-spindle, is the width of the front setup any wider than a standard beam? Im looking at this setup and thinking of adding vented 944 rotors & calipers and wondering if it all will still fit under a non flared car. TIA.
Hey Kevin,
Once the car is built, can your suspension kit be installed? Or does it need to be installed before the body is bolted to the chassis?
Eddy
Once the car is built, can your suspension kit be installed? Or does it need to be installed before the body is bolted to the chassis?
Eddy
Shuie,
Our front end is slightly wider then a stock ball joint beam, however with the use of late model Porsche wheels and or custom wheels they will still fit under none flaired fenders. The offset just needs to be +40mm. As for the use on 944 brakes I'm not sure how much higher the "hats" are (wheel mounting pad).
Eddie, I have not looked at my Speedster kit to see if it can be installed with the body on, so at this point I will say that it does have to installed before the body goes on. I will check out mine this week and let you guys know if it can be installed without taking the body off.... Stay tuned! :)
Our front end is slightly wider then a stock ball joint beam, however with the use of late model Porsche wheels and or custom wheels they will still fit under none flaired fenders. The offset just needs to be +40mm. As for the use on 944 brakes I'm not sure how much higher the "hats" are (wheel mounting pad).
Eddie, I have not looked at my Speedster kit to see if it can be installed with the body on, so at this point I will say that it does have to installed before the body goes on. I will check out mine this week and let you guys know if it can be installed without taking the body off.... Stay tuned! :)
Kevin, I'd like to know too.
Given the size and weight of 356 Replicas. Has any one thought about converting an ATV front end or from a CAn Am Spyder motorcycle?
The street rod people have tons of items in this catagory.
The street rod people have tons of items in this catagory.
Tom,
That is a great idea. The only a few small problems that you'll have to calculate. CG (center of gravity), RC (roll centers), and how to attach it. It does seem easy to do, however there is a lot more to it then just taking a part from one vehicle and attaching it to another. If you can make it work I'm sure others would love to know how it was done, Including me.
That is a great idea. The only a few small problems that you'll have to calculate. CG (center of gravity), RC (roll centers), and how to attach it. It does seem easy to do, however there is a lot more to it then just taking a part from one vehicle and attaching it to another. If you can make it work I'm sure others would love to know how it was done, Including me.
I like that idea~
Yeah, but wouldn't a cannibalized ATV suspension make the car handle like an ATV? Just sayin...
For anyone interested here are some links.
If you want one of our High Performance a-arm kits or our rear kit here is the link to our add on the Samba
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1076832
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1076832
If you want one of our High Performance a-arm kits or our rear kit here is the link to our add on the Samba
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1076832
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1076832
Very Nice kit. You guys must own a laser and a tube bender.
What CAD software do you use to design?
What CAD software do you use to design?
Your right with out those we would be dead in the water. We used a couple of differnt programs. One is a standard CAD design program and the other is Mitchel suspension designer. These would both have been useless with out the engineers we had on the job. One of which is a well known race car chassis designer.
SolidWorks is a great program and you can add real motion to your assemblies to check geometry.
Kevin - those are drool-worthy. Count us as a future customer!
angela
angela
7 i can do 9?
I need to correct a statement from earlier. I said the eyeball kit's rear mounting bolts are just bolted to the unsupported 18 gauge sheet metal gusset on the frame head. Looks like they do actually include an underside stiffening brace to control the vertical forces there. I still think they could do more to strengthen that area and tie it in with the chassis better but it's not going to tear itself off the car this way. In my defense, those parts are not shown in the pictures on their site and I hadn't seen the install videos they posted on their site since I last visited.
So, has anyone actually installed the Mendeola kits on their build yet? If so, we need a report, with photos.
Have Eyeball in Luftig. Drastic improvement in handling, etc. Have photos.
Bob
Bob
Have Eyeball in Luftig. Drastic improvement in handling, etc. Have photos.
Bob
Bob
Bob, I bet it did improve the handling. Wish you could have made down to Pismo, I would have like to see it. By the way, are you running IRS in the back? If so, it should be fine, right?
Rain scared us away, Warren. But sounds like you guys had a good time. Yes, I have IRS and there are no problems. We hope to get to the coast soon. When and if, you can drive it and make your own assessments.
Bob
Bob
Bob - I looked at your pictures on the other post. Very nice installation and probably made a big difference in the handling. I also watched the video, so have a better understanding of what goes where. So, I am still wondering if anyone has done the Mendeola front and back end kit. I suppose if I go ahead with building another car, it won't matter which kit I go with because the body will be off. I plan to visit each shop before I make a decision on the kits. It doesn't look like Eyeball has a rear suspension kit, but then maybe you don't need one if you have VW IRS?
Warren, Bruce suggested that with IRS I didn't need the rear. He thinks it is a bit of overkill. Candidly, I have not driven one with both front and rear. Don't know.
Bob
Bob
Too bad these suspension sections are out of reach dollar wise for most here...
Opps I already said that some time ago...
Opps I already said that some time ago...