messy horn wiring problem

I call it messy because of the mixture of parts.

I have a 60-61 column with a 66-67 turn signal switch on which I am installing a Nardi wheel.

For 60-61 the steering shaft itself carried the current instead of a wire down the center.

It seems like the hub, being connected to the shaft, makes the connection to the steering box.

That would mean that the wire from the horn button would somehow need to make a connection to the outer tube.

How could this be done and what pieces would be needed.

Right now there looks like there is nothing on the steering wheel hub or the turn signal switch that would facilitate a connection between them.

The bottom of the hub is bare. I will be adding a signal cancel ring.

The top of the turn signal switch doesn't look like there is any place where a rotating contact could rub.

Thanks for any help.

Michael, I can pull the engine, lay fiberglass, bleed the brakes and change drums to disc, dismantle the carb... but I still can't frickin figure out how to wire my horn! Many people have "told" me, but I can't figure why/how the column remains a positive charge and the ring is negative. I gave up on the horn, now I just give people the finger!

OD - you're killing me!

In most instances the power for the horn comes from the fuse box, through a relay and to the horn + terminal. Hot current in, Done! Now all you have to do is ground the negative terminal wire to something and it blow loud and clear. No hot current passes up or through anything, it ends at the horn, every other wire or assembly or whatever is simply a means of grounding the horn via a button of some sort.

The - horn terminal has a wire that either passes through the column, connects to the button and grounds to the shaft, through the button, when the horn button is depressed, or grounds through the blinker housing, which has two thin flat contact bands at the top, which contact a thin brass ring cast into the plastic cancellation ring. There's a wire lead coming from this ring which passes up through a hole in the steering hub to the horn button. The button is grounded to the wheel which is grounded to the steering shaft which is grounded to the steering box via a small jumper strap which spans the fiber steering connector and eventually grounds to the chassis through the beam.

You probably have a mix of parts and assemblies, none of them complete enough to let you see how things go together. Of all the systems in a vehicle, the wiring is the simplest. Just stand back and look at everything.

Luck,

TC

I think that you need a late '60's steering column bearing, which is at the top of the column just under the steering wheel. It is made of copper and designed to transfer electrical current from the column to chassis ground.

Not sure about the comment about early VW's used the steering shaft as the only conductor. The steering column tube is the "other" conductor, and all of the VW's I've seen had the wire running up through the center of the shaft. So... you had +12V on one side of the horn relay, the wire to the steering column connected to the other side of the relay, and THAT got connected to one side of the horn button (on some years it was the only connector on the horn button), with the other side of the horn button grounded through that copper bearing, through the steering column to chassis ground.

Beep, Beep!

When (if) I make it to Carlise in 3 frickin weeks... instead of the 24 hour build, we'll have a 24 hour horn installation. I bought the bug me videos so I could someone do it. But they skipped it and gave a head nod to the location of the knuckle and pulled a loom out of their a$$.

TC, can you see the contact bands you mention in this picture?

Gordon, the wiring for the horn for different years is described here: http://www.thebugshop.org/bsfqhorn.htm . It differed some for different years. The 60-61 steering shaft is insulated from the outer tube so the shaft takes the place of the wire down the center.

I think I need to make the connection TC describes from the horn button to the turn signal switch. I just need to know what parts I need.

Mike

"O .........I'm about on the floor laughing ! Tnx !

In looking at the link I posted again, it looks like if I use a later bearing so that the shaft and column are electrically connected, I could then run a wire from the horn button to the steering box without a connection to the turn signal switch.

Now I wonder if the later bearing will fit my steering shaft.

YIKES ! ! All these years I've been wiring my horn(s) backwards! They have all worked fine, but I've never run hot up through any column or used a rubber gasket to keep the current from shorting out. Of course, I've never owned anything but odd ball rides that have pretty much gone through the crusher LONG before I streeted them.

Sorry man, just ignore my previous post, except for the electrical systems bein' the easiest of all to figure out . . . THEN ignore me a LOT ! ! !

Michael, that turn signal switch is probably used on one of the year VWs that carried the horn wire up through the column. No "contacts" necessary.

I copped out. Horn button on dash.

I think if I remove the fiber washer on top of the steering shaft I will have an electrical connection between the shaft & tube. Then my setup should function like the 62-67 arrangement on the website I posted.

This actually is a pretty simple setup requiring no connection for the horn to the turn signal switch.

I still have a smerk on my face .
Id say the early colum is a keeper. and works even better on these cars. But the 66 bug switch is a Vs type setup I never liked .A 66 bus trn switch is a better and more correct looking and working switch. If you want it even better 67 bus switch has a dimmer on the switch .Either way you will need the matching cancel ring to put on the wheel. Get the upper colum bearing while you have it down this is a good time for a new one, to help keep the rattles away.

I have a spare 68 bus switch but the stalk is crummy looking . BFY offers the 66 bus the 67 is kind a hard to find

These are my preference and Im pleased with the fit and appearance

Is the diameter of the bus switch the same as the beetle switch?

Would my hub fit the same?

As a quick aside. . .

If anyone runs into an early Beetle blinker assembly with a crumby stalk just slide a piece of nice shiny collapsible radio antenna "tubing" over it and screw the little knob back on the end to hold it in place. I think that I used the second section from the bottom, maybe the third.

I'll post a pic if you like.

The early Bus blinker housings won't fit the larger diameter Beetle steering columns. Outwardly they're the same, but the inside is a MUCH smaller diameter where it clamps in place. The inside electrics are the same, however. The later Bus housing are different, they probably fit.

I just finished up a nice housing using Beetle and Bus parts. If anyone wants some comparison pics, I can post them this weekend. OR just look at an early Bus vs Beetle assembly and you'll see what I mean.

I also did up a late Beetle housing on which I removed the in-housing key switch in order to move that to the dash. The housing itself really looks vintage all cleaned up. Got a pic of that as well.

I also (also) stripped and drilled a stock Beetle housing and blinker shaft for a SWEET "race-only" look that'll rot your socks. Again, pics a-go-go.

Yup . . . went a little blinker crazy last week. I couldn't stop myself.

Of course, you have to run this advice through the, "He says WHAT about wiring the horn ? ! ? ! ? !" knowledge filter.

Honestly, I wouldn't listen to a word that I say, and I'm right here beside me . . .

A 68 bus switch as a much different stalk you would never get a sleeve on it but 65 through 67 will and On mine i have a 66 bus switch with a chromed sleeve that has been altered into a dimmer switch.

Flat 4 has a colar for the banjo. I know the nardi requires a bigger colar Im not sure about flat 4 having one. I took the big alumium spool that VS sent for my banjo wheel and lathed it into what I wanted.

im sure you could do something simular with the small colar flat 4 does offer,and just lathe up a colar cover that matches the nardi.

" A 68 bus switch as a much different stalk you would never get a sleeve on it but 65 through 67 will"

Yeah, it's kinda squared up isn't it. I bet that a piece of thin flat aluminum sheet stock, shaped and scored, then bent and trimmed up could be placed over the stalk, almost like a saddle (?) to make it sweet again.

It's just that the '68 has such neat built-in dimming/flashing features, and looks so "Porsche" that it would be a cool alternative for the right car.

You know . . .

TC? You want this Old switch? I'd be glad to ship it to you. But i should offer it to the guy in trouble first for free. After all this is his thread.

What say you Micheal. If you need it its yours, Its just waisting space in my shopa and may wind up broke before it gets used. But If I were you Id just paint the case and stalk and be happy its free.

TC What you said is true. But the 67 bus switch also had the dimmer but looks more correct.

So If Micheal would rather have a new one Id try a bus web site or 2 like BFY or the BUS BOX.

"But the 67 bus switch also had the dimmer but looks more correct."

SWEET! Learn something new everyday over here! There ought to be a compiled interchange booklet/web page of all this cool stuff somewhere. Maybe there is.

Thanks!

I sure wish there was. I scavanged a bunch old bugs and waisted a lot a time finding all this stuff out.

If there had been Vw interchange book, it could been a simple process.

Also I still have a snecky feeling the 66 bus switch was a carry over from the 356, from pictures and expanded drawing, I have found it sure looks the same.

I had a NOS '67 bus switch for my JPS. It cost me too much to think about. Everybody here is right-- it was the bomb-- very correct looking and it had the dimmer switch incorporated.

The inner diameter of the housing is too small for a beetle column, but the housing is pot-metal, so making it fit isn't all that hard. There are a couple of extra wires in the bus switch, but a wiring diagram and an ohm meter showed me which ones to eliminate (it's been 4 years, so I don't really remember specific colors).

It's very cool, and rare as hen's teeth to find one in good shape.

Stan I have seen a reproduction, but I have toured so many web sites the last few months I can't remember where I saw it .

EIS offers the 57 to 65. and I found a listing 66 to 67 bus switch $99.00 But it looks like a 68 the stalk is a dead givaway. I'll have to run though my favorite links Aaagaiiin....

Also, remember I said the early colum was a keeper. and ,you said, you had to file the switch to get it on the 66 colum. It should fit his early colum just fine.

FOUND IT at Wolfsburg West for $85.00 and its the correct one and they make it.

Bad news I didn't see the cancel ring. it will be a 3/4 ring with 1/4 slot. A backwards design to the beetle cancel ring. he could make one with 1and1/4 peace of scrap conduit or small muffler pipe scraps and a large flat washer, weld the 2 together and cut the cancel slot . But Id bet Stoddards or Klasse 356 has a real 356 ring that would do the trick

Update; I went ahead and got me a spare 67 switch from Wolfburg West. but Im leaving the old one on the car untill it gives trouble.

Y'all are makin' this way too hard:

Just SCREAM really loud.
angela

Its not hard at all to put together a correct period looking colum. But it helps a bunch if you know what fits and what doesn't

Michael? Give me the Nardi base diminsion of your wheel and if nessary I will make you a adapter that fits. but you will have to drill and tap your own bolt holes to mount the wheel.

On the early steering boxes the wire goes all the way down and throught the box. Most kits are based on newer vws Don't, as in mine I had to make a insulated brass spool that is atached to the colum shaft that has a brush contact, that muonts on the colum shell.

Way over engineered but it has worked perfect for 5 years.

IF I make you a colar I will include a kit with instructions for the horn lead.

Will this hush everyone up?

Barry,

I never thought about changing my turn signal switch until most of the way through this thread.

It seems like you think the 66-67 bus switch will fit my column tube. Is this right?

If you are going to make something, would it help if I sent my Nardi hub to you?

The Nardi hub has a little lip that the hole in the wheel fits around. I haven't tried it, but I suspect the horn button fits inside this lip, so it may be necessary to have it.

It seems like I could still wire it like the 66-67 Beetle which would only require a wire from the horn button to the steering box.

Look closely at my banjo wheel and you'll have your answer. I am useing 61 beetle colum . a 66 bus turn signal switch, a homemade cancel ring and a remachined aluminum spool like came with my banjo wheel.I only used a third of the spool

The 67 bus switch is the best one When I ordered my spare that was the one. If you want to wait untill it arives and I can post the measurements of the new one to be sure. IT IS AFTERMARKET!!

I don,t want to leave you stranded without any parts if you need to move or drive the car. i want you to be able to.

Can you take digital pictues with a good ruler laided acoss the hub . I can usauly scale parts pretty acurately form that, and a scaled drawing with meurements

I do not know much about the nardi wheel specs but measurements of the horn button and cancel ring would also be good to have. and a picture of the steering wheel. Again with the ruler trick.

Also If you want it to have aditional clearance between the dash eyebrow
and the steering wheel. The hub can be made a little thicker to gain 3/4s of a inch if you need it. I can bowel shape it a schose to help hide the extra thichness. I did this for the banjo which is kinda flat And Im glad I did. If its to much return it and I will trim it.

Post your pics here and your drawings and I will try to get right on it this week.

Barry,

I tried to email you directly and the email address in your profile didn't work.

I really appreciate your offer to make a hub for me.

You don't need to worry about my car not being drivable while you do this. I am still building the car.

It still seems like it would be helpful to you if I sent you the Nardi hub I have now. You can see how the splined part attaches to the bottom and the top surface where the wheel mounts.

What do you think about this?

Would a bus steering column be longer than the beetle column I have now? The on-line illustrations look like they do not have the flex coupling at the bottom.

I know you can make the hub such that the wheel is farther from the eyebrow. A longer steering would also move the signal lever away from the dash.

I plan to order the signal switch from Wolfsburg West.

I sent you a email. Use the address in it . In what stage is our build and can you test fit you colum and check the distance between the dash eye brow and the stearing wheel rim . I just went back and rechecked

If you dont have a eyebrow on the dash you want at least 5 inches. with the eyehrow that will give your nuckels 2 and 1/2 inches but thats enough. The 61 colum is shorter so do measure it with care.

You need to decide if you want a fully polished bilit new hub or brushed aluminun finish or just painted. And Im not gona charge you. and I can not garrantie a perfect polished finish. But Im gona try. if you want to paint it or scotch brite it to match your wheel thats up to you.

Barry,

I didn't get the email.

Can you check the address and send it again?

Thanks.

I see one problem zegfredgrummin with a (e) at earthlink,. net


I will also try again.

I think I have a turnsignal switch somewhere that anyone is welcome to. I installed an 60 something switch in my car to get the period look, it was a pain in the butt trying to get the right size. As discussed already the diameter of the column vs. the diameter of the switch changed from year and model. I just bailed on the cancel and just turn it off when I've made the turn. I went the Cory route and made a dash switch for my horn because of the headache of wiring it through the column. Someday when I redo my dash I sort it all out and do it up nice nice. Anyway, if anyone is interested in the switch it's theres, no charge.

It can be done right. also check out the emblem on the back of my replica also homemade.

thanks to the engineering minds of Lane and Gordon, I now have a working horn. Once you get past the stupidity (my part) it really is as easy as everyone says it is... so long as the horn button is set up correctly. Having wired the horn numerous times before and no go... within two minutes Lanes suggested that I check the horn button. Yeah, that was the problem. The spring in the button was not separating the connection points. Once that was settled, the horn sparked up, just as described. Tech days are a wonderful thing. I was busy breaking down another TIV engine while Lane and Gordon got busy bleeding lanes breaks and installing a new shifter. I highly suggest getting a couple brains together when trying to solve a problem. I am toooting away now! no need to store empty soda cans in the car anymore.

What does the bottom script say, Barry? I can't make it out -- but it looks cool!

Hey, even an old guy like me can read it. It says "Automatic".

Young whipper snapper.

this is the only pict that I have from the first charleton tech day

Yeah, but it was a lot of fun, wasn't it? Damn good steak burgers, by the way.

Got the reverse lockout pin moving freely with a little work with a jeweler's file. Marking the shifter and reverse plate with white paint BEFORE moving anything made the job a snap. Have I mentioned how much I reeeeeally like that shifter?