Mexican crate motor engine failures

Colton,

I'm glad you went to Kurt,I'm even happier that he pleased you......if a customer is only concerned with a warranty, they need to buy a brand new car.

I did what I had to do to cover my self (this is not a corporation, my name are on teh checks) and part of that was releasing many liabilities..

Not "many" but "all" liabilities as well as guarantees of (id est claims of) performance... so, since I have your attention, does the latter mean you could tell someone the dyno says their engine puts out 180hp, but if they find out later it is really only 130... well, that's too bad and tough cookies, there was really no guarantee? Just curious... because you were always vague when I asked you.

Anyway, Jake, as I said in my e-mail to you, what I wrote was in response to what Alan wrote and was not meant as a personal attack on you. You are a businessman and those are your business policies in black and white, plain and simple. Some people can and are happy to live with them and others, like me, can't and take their business elsewhere. However, Alan implied something I felt was quite to the contrary of your stated business practices that, in fairness, had to be rebutted. It's as simple as that and I am sorry if you took it personally... but they are your personal business policies and if there is an issue with that, then I suggest you change them.

I personally take comfort in the fact that if my engine experiences any problems, I have a builder who is committed to taking responsibility for it. However, heaven forbid this happens to any "Type MassIVe" owners:

www.geocities.com/unknown_haxxor/baby.html

It has happened.......and I took care of it.

Hell I took my vacation time while I was in Florida to go see a memeber of this forum and get his MassIVe TIV engine running in his speedster...that was during my Vacation, the first one I had in 10 years, in an unventilated garage in south Florida in July....Didn't charge him a dime.

I'm decent to those who are decent to me,those who aren't can go fly a kite and I'll teach them how...

As for Alan, his company bought a pair of engines from me, and he had never fooled witha TIV engine before. I gave him detailed instructions and even part numbers for accessory items that would be needed for the install, and walked him through it on the phone on a few occasions.....I don't think he was implying anything about a warranty, but his engines still are covered by a warranty as they were purchased before July 1 2002, thats when everything changed....so his post is accurate for HIM, but his company did pay me for extensive dyno testing, something that is now included with every engine in Lieu of warranties...

You got mail.

I bought a T-4 from Jake and yes, I saw the warranty before I made my dicision. I'm sure Jake needs to protect himself. What sold me on Jake was his honesty when I spoke to him on the phone and that was a lot. I have no doubt that Jake supports the engines he builds. I also know that Jake probably builds one of the best T4 and T1 engines
in the US. I've never seen anything but praise from those who bought his engines. He is one of the most respected guys out there and spends his own time helping others with their T4 engines even if he didn't build it. Just go to the CA Look forum. I also got to spend a day with Jake and know he's for real.

My Raby T4 is a great engine and I love it. Sure he has a warranty, he needs one. And if my T4 blows up because of something he did, I know he will fix it. THAT'S JAKE!

We offer longblocks for sale. The stock engines (mexican) have a 1 year warranty. Performance engines (OUR performance engines) have NO WARRANTY. Why? Because some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox.

If you want a warranty, buy the engine from Mofoco, GEX, or Bergmann. I don't know for sure, but I can pretty much guess that

Adam Wik
Roger Crawford
Jake Raby
etc, etc

isn't going to have a warranty in writing. If the motor grenades on the dyno, you own all the pieces.

Now, that's not to say that any of these guys aren't going to work with you, I guarantee you they will (so do we). But shite happens. How do you guarantee that a guy adjusts his valves, doesn't put the valvecover on right, it runs out of oil, and he's busy driving 85mpg listening to his favorite music, and the thing siezes because it's out of oil?

Secondly, you can build the best engine in the World, and there are guys that break it. In fact, I have found that the guys pushing for the big warrantee/guarantee are the ones you better watch out for, because they view it as a license to be an idiot.

A perfect example is to read the fine print of the warranty offerred by any company selling you an engine. That fine print gets them out of anything they darn well want, with the exception of not providing you with the parts you paid for (they sell you one thing, you find out it's not what they said). So the warrantee is worthless.

A man's honor is what you should believe in. They feel their reputation is worth a LOT more then one engine. I'd be surprised if any of those engine builders above had a customer that had blown up an engine, and had felt they didn't get treated fairly.

I don't want to omit Kurt Metzger either, I hear nothing but praise about he and Ann.

And that's all I have to say about that. Back into semi-lurk mode. :-)

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

Ha! This is funny. No offense but I hardly see what good a dyno test could do in replacement of a warranty. The only thing it proves is that at some time, some motor was running (not necessarily the one ordered) as the motors are then crated & shipped according to how all that was worded...........SO unless you're standing over watching the entire process, how do you know if the results you get are even true? I'm not bashing Jake here, he's one hell of a saleman to pitch that one & have it stick. Personally I feel it's a big red flag to fly that many disclaimers. The way I've always done business & what I expect from other business's is to stand behind the products or work 100%. High performance or not, one of the reasons there are so few options is because people don't take pride in their work. Removing blame or consequence from every possible circumstance in writing before a situation arises is nothing more than A GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS & that you will recieve no compensation because you basically agreed to purchase a polished turd & you deserve whatever punishment results from your stupidity. Sure it's not spelled out like that, I'm merely translating a disclaimer but you get the idea. Please people, be a smart consumer! If not for the sake of saving your money than do it for my sake - I'm sick of fixing other people's hack jobs & would rather use that time putting my own car together. Additionally, while it may be true that some amount of abuse is to be expected by the consumer thus being the reason so many HiPo parts have no warranty, I feel a responsable engine builder / parts supplier should consider repair or replacement. If anyone tries to tell you such backing doesn't exist I'd like to say that's not true. Again, do your research. Every company I deal with knows that under no circumstances will I do business with them unless I know they will stand behind the parts I am putting in a motor I'm building. 9 times out of 10 the customer doesn't associate the parts with my supplier, they associate the parts with me & I won't allow someone else to ruin my name with an inferior part. As a responsible builder, I've done my research. I won't take a job unless I know the customer has too. Maybe I should put a 'no tard customers / no polished turds for sale' release on my estimates since disclaimers seem to make for good selling points?

Anyway.....! Sorry George, didn't mean to rant under your post. I'll make up for it by offering that the Mexican crate motors fall under the polished turd category in my book. They are mass produced using cheap internal parts - note I pluralized parts - for a high profit margin. The manufacturer doesn't expect your car to exist much longer so the figure why should the motor be built to last as long as an original engine. There's a high profit margin on cheap parts.

BTW - Colton that link is way TOOOOOOO FUNNY! I feel bad for the guy who bought THAT motor :P

Wow, how do you guys write such long posts within the 10 minute period before your time allotment is up?

Re warranties in general, a good shop doesn't need a warrenty because they will stand behind their product, or in the very least work with you. Who is to say if you have a bullet-proof warranty that seems to cover your butt as the consumer that the builder will do the warranty work the right way and not cut corners to save labor/parts? Having something in writing isn't fullproof insurance that your butt is covered.

When all is said and done, at the end of the day, it is the measure of the man, or woman, and their intregrity that matters.

I agree, if someone wants an all-inclusive warranty I can understand them being gunshy of Jake's boiler plate language. He stays two to four months behind with orders so that tells me his phone is ringing due to the quality of his work. Also, if you lurk the sites he ranges on you will find he admits when he has problems with parts, suppliers, etc. I have no problem with his lack of written warranty because I have full confidence in him. He is a aviation turbine technician; helicopters can't just pull over to the edge of the road when they have mechanical problems. You do it right the first time.

PS: I have read Jake post about bad batches of parts, the quality of work by a certain head shop, a poor balancing job by an area machine shop, etc. He calls a spade a spade. I have read Jake posting that he was going to give XYZ supplier a chance to make the problem right... he was doing it in public. I reckon a "problem" engine not dealt with fairly (by both parties) would be widely posted on various sites so Jake will take his hits. I haven't read one yet.

One of the reason he invested in his dyno, his harmonic balance machine, his flow table, etc., is so he has total control of as many variables as possible, thus the buck stops with him.

All that said, Jake, bro, the boiler plate language in your disclaimer is a bit terse. I am certain your lawyer could add a line or two to give the consumer a bit of a security blanket. We have all owned businesses or work high stakes jobs, elsewise we wouldn't be driving these toys. We all have liability. As a sincere suggestion, read the text through the eyes of your customers. I am sure a line or two added wouldn't increase your exposure.

I an employed as a vocational auto shop teacher at a non profit alternative school where, we have two auto shops that serve as a venue teaching "at risk youth" basic automotive skills. This is acomplished in a unigue setting by building speedster repicars from the shortened type 1 pan up to completion.

My post regarding Jake Raby's is accurate to the "T". I aquired my "attention to detail attitude" dad was a man of perfection........ the "old german" occupation of tool and die maker. I must admit at times working along side of him was P.I.T.A Being "my father's son" what I did learn......was to reconize high quality when I see it.

Jake Raby is to be praised and applauded for his engine knowledge skills and attention to the customers needs. Prior to selecting Jake's engines, my counterpart from our other vocational auto shop, Rocky, Jake and I spent and hour on a 3 way phone call discussing the Raby T-IV engine and believe me we grilled Jake with details!. After our conversation we were impressed beyond doubt! Jake also took the time to keep in contact as the build's progressed at his shop. We received the engines in a timely manner and found them to be all that Jake assured us they would be.The engineered Type IV engines we have purchased are an excellent product, the attention to detail is astounding.

To conclude ....Do your homework, spend time with other suppliers ASK questions and make you own conclusions.....we did and without hesitation would do so again!

Alan Merklin

Soooooooooo, what have I learned here about the engine that powers my car? That it had a warranty when it was new, it has expired and it probably wasn't a good guarantee in the first place. Also, my engine will probably not live very long, especially if I don't continue to baby and maintain it. That's just GREAT news!
As far as having a new engine built, I hope that day will come someday whether the engine lasts or not. I want an engine I know I can count on, that's for certain. I would go more by the reputation of the builder than a piece of paper. My recollection from a business law class, many years ago, is that typical warantees offered by large auto makers have exclusions in fine print about "merchantability" and "fitness for intended purpose." The instructor, a practicing attorney, pointed out the limits this language places on the value of the guarantee. Give me a good, honest man/woman with a reputation to protect any day. Going forward, let the customers speak up if things don't go well with your built engines as well as when they do. The (future) buying public wants to know.
jph

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 10:59:26 AM)

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 11:00:03 AM)

I have had 3 customers read my proposal that did not go through with the engine build, one of which was Mr. Perry.

I have a 30,000 dollar engine ( you read right, 30 thousand) engine on my teardown table right now. It took 18 months to complete due to parts and time problems. I assembled the shortblock 8 months before I owned my balancer and had another shop do the balance work. I fired the engine up and after 35 minutes the left side carb was ready to fall off from harmonics......Guess what, that engine had no warranty either, but I took it back apart and rebalanced it at no cost to the customer.

I gave the balance shop every chance to make it good, they did not, een though the engine will all parts indexed the way they marked them was 42 grams out of balance, and they personally saw that on my machine. Teh engine is still apart and is going back together slowly. The first time I assembled it it had 250 hours of labor spent to make it as mechanically perfect as possible.This is not a line of BS, some guys here have been following its progress for almost 2 years....THIS IS NOT A RACE ENGINE,its a daily driver..No Joke,and a TIV at that, but a very extreme one.

You will notice that Mr. Perry posted above an excerpt from my proposal to him, notice that there is NO FINE PINT and that the print is actually BOLD. Thats exactly who I am, no fine print here, cut and dry, like it or not. BTW, No lawyer wrote that, that was written by a dunmmb redneck working in a barn in North Georgia. Hell, Look on my customer forum, I admitted to getting a crappy batch of Pushrods from scat and told my customers what to look for for signs of wear and even said I'll pull their records(yes I keep a blueprint of every engine) find their pushrod lengths and recut them a new set of Manton pushrods free of charge...do you think Scat is gonna give me a dime for any of the bad pushrods????? 2 words, Hell No!

Kurt, since I made the changes to my warranty I leave engines on the Dyno for a solid day or atleast 6 hours letting them purr away and with a good load, all this after tuning.....I try to break the engine on the dyno and sometimes I do, if I do I take care of it..

short story, if you don't trust me, I don't want your money, one bad transaction is enough to cost me more than 3 good ones profit me. If you trust me, I'll do your job, and we'll get along for many years.Heck one of my customers new I collecetd Guns so he just sent me a WWII German Mauser for Christmas, the one that I needed to complete my collection....My customers are good people, and my friends.

So I'm a liar when I say there was no fine print?? This is REALLY starting to piss me off, tell the truth if you have it in you, else get off the soapbox and cry on someone elses shoulder.
Tell the truth!

You have proven your point time and again, and once again I'll say that I'm glad you chose Kurt and not me. Now let it die. I hate being pushed, when you back me in the corner you better get ready.

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 11:43:32 AM)

It is my HOPE to build my own engine.

I guess It never hurts to go over your parts humpteen times, My brother is heavy into Induro Racing 6 banger chevys He had had the machinist leave out gally plugs in oil gallies and missdecked heads causing the pistons to touch and even incorrect push rods that had to much lift causing valve contact,

There's alot you can overlook and It only takes one mis matched part to put you on the scrap heap .If jake will help me get It matched up right, and be willing to do the parts selection and prefit.. for my engine???

I will do my best to inspect and check every single part over and over as I asemble it and even have my brother go in behind checking it again and again. And If we run into ANYTHING questionable. We will ask Jake for advice and sugestions.

Uh, Jake... I bolded that part of your agreement with html bold tags for effect... in your agreement, it looks just like the rest of the text. :-) Are you full of crap or what?! (note the bold text) Why are you taking this so personally? I have never questioned or commented on your engine building skills. I am only discussing your business policies and my lack of comfort with them. Are we insecure about something here? So, when you wrote me that you haven't had an engine come back THIS YEAR? Hmm... this year? Is that a personal best or something?

And as for the agreement being written by a "dumb redneck", you TOLD ME (note more bold text) that YOUR LAWYER wrote it (more crap). Of course, I figured it wasn't with all the spelling mistakes and was really, in the end, probably so full of holes that MY lawyer (yes, I have one) would pick it apart. The issue is that if ANYONE has to say all of those things I am going to wonder, "WHY?" It isn't about a warranty per se because I am not buying a KIA here... it is about a business person trying to so completely and utterly distance himself from any form of liability for a product he produces. I also want to make it clear that I only have the implicit assurance that builder or parts-related problems (other things are my responsibility and I know that) will be taken care of by my builder. He didn't present me with a laundry list of things he wasn't responsible for and I don't have some magic piece of paper that makes my engine seem impervious to me. See what I am getting at?

Want me to be straight up here? I seen some of the forums and Jake does nothing but stir up debates (sic SHIT) full of half-truths and is DISLIKED by many... CLF, Shop Talk, here(?), etc. But don't take my word for it, go to www.cal-look.com and search the forum for "Raby". You will find postings like this:

"griznant has the typically bad case of type 4 "raby syndrome"... wherein the afflicted substitutes lies for the facts, like jake raby just did... for the record, griznant, check out the life cycle on the n/a 2165 here:"

By the way, Jake, if you are so busy, successful, and turning away so much work, where do you get the time to do so much posting? Either you aren't fully concentrating on the engines you build or maybe you have found a way to cheat the clock and add a few hours to the day? And with being so busy and successful again, why is the cost of insurance such an issue? You should have plenty of money for that and should, in the end, figure it into your bottom line.

Anyway, my point in stirring up this "hornet's nest" was two-fold:

First, everyone needs to realize there are other great engine builders out there besides Jake... so do your homework. If you are more of a novice (we're not all like George Brown capable of installing and FULLY servicing our own engines) you also might want to take into account that there are builders who also install your engine so that everything is running perfectly when you get your car back. That was also important for me.

Second, the fact that someone distances themselves so extensively from liability is an issue FOR ME in MY decision and that others might want to take that into account. So, EXCUSE ME for having an opinion, exercising my right to free speech, and stating the ubiquitous "BUYER BEWARE."

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 12:00:01 PM)

Jake, I am more than willing to let this die... and excuse me, but who's shoulder am I crying on? I have better things to do than post on this forum all the time. However, I have to ask, how can I have proven my point time and again (according to you) if I am not telling the truth (again, according to you)? That makes no sense. Dude, stick to building engines...

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 12:13:14 PM)

Mr. Perry,


I take things personally that I make personally for a business that I personally own.

So many people don't like me, think I care???? Most of those guys are on the CLF and don't like me merely because I build TIV engines and they don't like a TIV for some reason.

FYI, I have a laptop in the engine room, as we speak there is assembly lube on my hands.

You have made your point and exercised your free speech,why don't you give it up and let those judge me on their own,pressing the subject just makes you look like a whiner, and thats exactly what you are. Now leave me alone and go drive your speedster.

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 12:14:29 PM)

One question for you is why do you have a point in the first place, who asked you for anything?? You wanted to slam me for having a policy, and you did so.

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 12:18:10 PM)

Whiner? Because I call into question/bring to light parts of your business policies because they concern me? What are you, 12 years old? Hmm... if anyone is being a WHINER here, it is you. However, I will just call it being very unprofessional. Here are some quotes:

• "This is REALLY starting to piss me off"
  
• "cry on someone elses shoulder"
  
• "when you back me in the corner you better get ready" (Are you implying a threat? Do you want to meet me out back after school?)
  
• "Now leave me alone and go drive your speedster"
  

Jake, grow up. And, I guess you just have to get the last word in don't you? Do us all a favor and YOU let it die by being PROFESSIONAL and not responding anymore, doing some research on discussion group etiquette, and let this forum get back to what it is meant to be about and who it is for... not Jake Raby, but SPEEDSTER OWNERS.

Anyway, to get back to the topic. Barry, I wish I could build my own engine. My skills are limited to basic maintenance, adjustments and tuning, and what I read in the "Idiots Book". But, I am really learning now which is great. The parts chosen are crucial to the application as I have found... as I consider a turbo in the future I realized that it isn't as simple as just slapping a turbo kit on there. I am no expert by any means when it comes to engines, but I am learning more which either makes me smarter or more dangerous. :-)

(Message Edited 12/7/2002 12:50:06 PM)

Guess I'm not a professional.

I owe this group an apology however.

See, I'm a really nice guy that tries his hardest. when someone questions that I take it lightly in the beginning but when things keep going on and on I start to take it seriously. Its not the fact that I want to win, it the fact that I want to be understood fully.

I'm a realist, and the reality is that nothing is gained by huge pissing matches, and that all I do is get wound up and ruin my day.

Contrary to the latest belief, I'm not a jerk, but I just stand up for what I think is right and I probably do that way too much.

As far as I'm concerned it takes more of a man to admit his mistakes than it does to fight, but I never realize that till I'm at my wits end with guys that push me to the max, most of which have never even built a single engine.

I have had a series of articles written on my shop, and had a magazine from the UK do a feature on me personally because of what we are doing, and even made a video about how to build the TIV engine that has sold in 15 countries. To come here and start crap is not needed, all I do is try to take up for myself.

Those who know me, or have spoken to me on the phone know that.

Forum: This is my apology, its hard as hell to make, and I'd rather get into a backstreet brawl than to have to make it, but here it is I'm sorry.

Have who you want build your engine, last time I checked this is the 21st century and "Aircooled Technology" is what we are.

My new years resolution has a great deal of time budgeting in it, so you won't be seeing me much after that anyway, I'll just be lurking to make sure nobody slams me.....This stress coupled with life in General has stirred up a real bad case of Ulcers and the doc says it won't go away as long as I stay wound up.


(Message Edited 12/7/2002 12:56:55 PM)

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***MODERATOR MESSAGE
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THIS TOPIC IS CLOSED, please comment no further on it.
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I'm sorry to say that it took a private email to bring my attention to the fighting going on here. I do not read every thread.
thank you for understanding
-=theron