mid-engine Porsche 356 help needed

I need some help from those who might have done a mid-engine VW installation or know of a mid-engine VW install under a 356 Porsche shell. I know that it's common place for the Spyder, but I just can't seem to make everything fit under the 356 shell and still have room for the seats and all.

I have a old Berrien Classic sand rail tube frame that I'm using for the basis of the chassis. Aluminum Porsche trailing arms with the rear discs, and coil-over rear shocks rather than the VW Type I torsion housing/bar. The length of the transaxle from axle center to bell housing is 7.5", the engine length is around 12.5" depending on which pulley and belt system I use.

This puts the VW engine right in the middle of my seat back, and not accounting for sound deadening/bulkhead/engine cover/etc. A VERY tight and impossible fit.

I don't really mind using a rear engine configuration, I'm used to it, but with a custom tube frame and so many options, I though that a mid-engine set-up might be an interesting idea.

I know that complete Subaru drive lines have been installed, those have a different axle/trans dimension. I just thought that with all of the Spyders using a mid-engine just fine that I might be doing something wrong/measuring something wrong/etc. The Spyder has a wheel base of around 82.7', the 356 is the exact same.

Am I doing something wrong? Any help would be REALLY appreciated as this project has already be started, front end all done and part way into the rear, I need to know what direction to take.

Thanks for any help in advance,

T

SAW cars don't have a rear seat, they have a hump over the engine. So make yourself a nice 2 seat sportscar and leave it at that. I don't think you can get the rear seat too, look at the cayman and the boxster, even with no fan they don't have a back seat.

Interesting project by the way, I'd like to see/hear more TC.

The folks at Special Edition have developed a mid-engined chassis, but it's based around a modern, transverse drivetrain, so I don't know if Carey Hines could help you or not.

The whole rear "seat" in the car will be covered by an engine cover, no question. The problem is that I just can't get it to fit without drastically intruding into the seating area.

It just seems so weird. Anyone know the wheel base of the replicas? Maybe the original 356 coupe is shorter by an inch or so? How about the back of the front seat, anyone know haw far that measures from the rear axle center in a replica?

OR . . . is there a schematic diagram anywhere that I might download showing the side view layout of the rear engine replica, spyder, or mid-engine offerings from the manufacturers?

It really makes no sense to me that the mid-engine configuration won't fit and allow for correct seat placement, but I can't get around the measurements that I have in hand.

Hate to give up on the project this early on, but if the math won't work, that's it.

Thanks,

T

Another option is to switch from the upright cooling system to a Type 3 cooling system.. It's drawback is that you have a large fan attached to the crank pulley but, it's flat and thus less upright room is needed.

The drawback to a mid engine car in a coupe body is the difficulty level in doing tune up's, timing, adjusting carburetors, oil changes, etc etc etc especially if you use a VW engine. If you go to Fuel Injection, that will help a litte but it still will be a hassle

Something along these lines (Type III):

That looks like a pre 1968 engine.

I guess that I'm not making myself heard, or not being clear enough in my request.

The engine for the car is a Type I with a stock fan shroud and alternator assembly. It's the best cooling apparatus available for the engine and works superbly as VW designed it. The tin and shroud aren't the problem, the cooling isn't a problem, access won't be a problem in the end either, the length of the engine/transaxle IS a problem, but an unexpected one. They're just too long (not tall) to fit successfully in passenger compartment of the coupe and STILL provide for the correct seating positioning. I thought that possible/hopefully I was figuring things wrong, or that maybe there was something that I wasn't doing correctly.

I checked the lay-out of the Spyder, which has a mid-engine design and saw that the seats are MUCH farther forward than those in a 356. The rear deck cover is longer and the nose is shorter. Plenty of room for the mid-engine., but not the case with the 356 unfortunately.

The Type III engine is WAY too long to be of any good. That extra length and bulk caused by the aluminum fan shroud and generator as it's attached to the rear of the engine makes it even MORE impossible to fit inside the car without knocking the seats up under the dashboard. Of course the IV engines are even longer and wouldn't come close to fitting.

I guess that a successful mid-engine Speedster or 356 Coupe is impossible to build using stock VW transaxle and Type I engine.

Anyway, thanks for the input, could have been a good idea, but the math just won't work without resorting to alternative engines and transaxles. I'll probably shift to the more traditional rear engine configuration and just use the shortened VW pan. Save the tube frame for another time.

Thanks,

T

OH but it is possible. If your willing to cut and lengthen the 356 body and chassis, just behind the rear door post and put in a flat firewall against the seat backs.. Then the old engine bay becomes a second trunk..
LOOK at a 1948 0001 version you will have to remake 2 rear lids for it to look correct.. Lots and lots of hand laid fiberglass work to make the trunk compartment and lids fit and work.. and the forward lid had louvers ,,, More work!!

My POP use to say time isn't nothing to a poor man.. But what if you don't have any spare time..

My job at work has begun to rule my life.. i could do something like this..Now If I had too

Can you go IRS and put an angle on the axels by shifting the trans rearward?

You got it Mark - the IMs have their whole drivetrain moved forward about 3 inches (I was told) for better weight balance. It does require and IRS. Therefore, in a mid-engine application, you should be able to move an IRS drivetrain REARWARD at least 3 inches. Where does that put the back of the tranny relative to the rear of the body?

Mark and David, I was just thinking the same thing. TC, how much room do you have behind the trans nosecone? And use the Beck/Special Edition shifter, it's the shortest one I think.

I think Spyders are lengthened a little, to 85" wheelbase, since people are just plain taller than in the 50s.

Moving the entire drive train rearwards by a couple of inches is a GREAT idea ! ! OF COURSE, I NEVER thought of it, but I'm SO glad that someone did.

The frame is set up for IRS, and I'm using the aluminum trailing arms and brakes from a friend's Porsche 944 so that's all set. I've also got several sets of axles, some from the BMW 2002, VW Type I, 914, and others from the 944 Porsche along with a box of varied spacers so I'll probably be able to put together a set up that'll work out well. If the drive train sets back a couple of inches, I'll just add an inch to the axle length and not have to worry about the CV joints being stressed or coming apart, just to be on the safe side, you know?

I also really like the idea of the rear of the transaxle and shifter mechanism coming through the body and showing from the rear. Those early Can-Am cars had their transaxles hanging out in the wind and always looked SO tough ! ! ! I think that a bit of mechanics busting through a nicely vintage looking shell would make for a fine juxtaposition and be a reminder that the 356 Porsche was meant to race.

I'll have to begin mapping this out/mocking this up and check to see if it'll work as well as it sounds. I think that I'll probably fashion a set of empty dynamat lined suitcases that snap together and easily un-snap and come apart to act as a multi-piece engine cover. This would make it easy to remove in small suitcase sized sections for engine access, plus not look TOO awkwardly out of place in the back of the car. I really don't want a massive bulge in the back seat with an engine under it, hopefully this idea will provide more of a "believable" masquerade.

The body has been unbolted and cut lose from the VW pan and will be up on saw horses soon to be further gutted out, strengthened, and have the body panels straightened. I was looking into some fiberglass panels earlier on, but have come to like the idea of ending up with a near perfect, all steel, panel numbers matching Pre-A shell covering a mid-engine birdcage chassis.

Thanks ! ! You guys really came through ! ! ! I was just about to shelve everything . . . .


T

Uh TC - another thought, if you proceed with this project:

You will still need room to slide your engine FORWARD in the chassis to remove the driveshaft from the transaxle, so you just lost at least one inch from your total rearward relocation.

Course you could make a complete sub-frame and drop the whole driveline when you want to remove the engine? Don't ya just love folks who are so genrous with YOUR labor?

In talking with Henry at Carlisle, I believe he said something about the CV axles being Porsche ...I think.

Also, to this adventure TC, certain CV joints are MUCH more amendable to axle angles. T1 are the least forgiving, need to be very little angulation. But 930 CV's can take something crazy like 30 degrees. A little study-a-fying in this area will help you pick the CV that will work and give you the best angle of the dangle.

The more angulation that you can run, the further rearward you can stuff that engine (and hang that sexy transaxle bit right at the rear)! More interior space.

As you get more angulation, you may have to go to an aftermarket axle like Swayaway so that you don't have a length issue.

Also, I would plan on building the mounts so that you remove the engine and transaxle as a unit. Again, because of forward space considerations. It's almost less hassle to just drop the engine/trans together than screw around with sliding it forward for removal and then stabbing it back on while you are bent at some very awkward angle. I guess if I had a lift or a hoist it would be different, but I've always got to remove the stuff by myself and find the "drop as a unit" system a lot easier for both rear engined cars, mid-engined cars and FWD cars.

angela

More great information ! !

I'll check into the CV joints, I was planning on using those from the BMW, but I could easily grab a set of Porsche units from my buddy supplying the aluminum trailing arms and brakes. I had a couple of VW CVs out last night and they DID seem a little less than forgiving. On the plus side, after doing the math, the rearward mounting of the drivetrain only extends the axles 0.17 inches, so I won't need to install spacers. The Porsche CVs are thicker than those from the VW and BMW so that will be a plus as well.

No worries on moving the engine forward to disengage it from the trans. If there's a big enough problem in the clutch pack or the engine that requires the engine/trans needing removal, I'd much rather drop the whole assembly out through the bottom as a unit and look at everything at once. We have a four pole lift and an overhead chain fall for that kinda stuff.

Of course, nothing's gonna happen until the chassis is fully built and the body work is addressed. The body is in my Father's garage and won't be touched until the Winter. I still have my little Fiat 600 to finish up before starting in on that. For now, I'm collecting all of the necessary bits and pieces and working out the engineering problems. As I mentioned earlier, I was just about to revert back to a rear engine set-up when you guys stepped up; now I have a whole new set of equations, but it sure seems possible all of a sudden.

Thanks ! ! !

T

If you start to go crazy, foaming at the mouth and all and then want to (God forbid) SPEND SOME MONEY, then a BUNCH of folks in the South use Raxles down in Jacksonville. I took my old set down there to rebuild for the new car and they did a fabulous job. Felt like a lepper, though, with my little, puny, custom 930 axles sitting next to a mountain of axles destined for Cobras and high powered tuners.

http://www.raxles.com/

gn

You forget where I was born and raised. I'm a Yankee, we're . . . thrifty. If I might ask, what was the tally for your two refurbished axles fitted with 930 CV joints? I'm MOST curious.

Found a source for brandie new 930 CV joints at around $40 each, but I've re-done VW joints and would mind doing up a set of used 930 joints at all. One of the local COM racers has a pair of modified 240Z axles done up for his 914 which ought to fit my needs pretty well. I may be able to trade/buy them next month when the car comes off of the track for a re-fit. Until then, I'll grab up any 930 CVs that I can. Snobishly though, I'd really like to keep as many genuine Porsche parts in this mix as I can.

Thanks for the extra info, ALL of this helps a TON ! ! !


T

I supplied the original axles and didn't need to have them shipped - I think they were something like $125 each, balancing included, and picked up (I was going that way for something else). The CV joints were German.

gn

And the stub axles and transaxle flanges?

Did you replace/alter/drill and tap those as well to match the 930 CV joints or did things fit back together as is?

Just wondering how much coin it's gonna take to wrap up the axle/CV assembly correctly and what parts I'm going to need to source or cajole out of George.

Thanks !

T

Regarding CV joins. One of my friends went through 4 sets of 930 CV's during a sand season (Nov-March) The reason???

He was buying Empi CV's that were made in China (usually around 40 bucks each)

Last season, he purchased Lobro German CV's and they are perfect, no evidence of wear and they weren't even blueprinted. (which by the way isn't difficult to do)

This is one of those cases where you get what you pay for. The Empi's or Chinese brand are crap.

I eventually went to a set of sliding axles (outer and inner splines) so the axle can shrink and grow during 20 inches of travel and instead of CV's they are fitted with 3/4 ton truck U joints.

I THINK that I might be able to score a set of sliding axles (modified 240Z) from one of the COM racers, but I won't know for another month when he takes the car off of the track and brings it in for a re-fit.


Gordon,

Wondering about your boys that did the CV/axles for you. That seems like an extraordinary price! A quick figure puts the CV joints at close to $60 each, and the 930 "over the top" CV boots at $15 each. That's $150 per axle in parts alone . . .

If at all possible, would you contact your boys for me (I'm thinking that they might take a friendly call from an old customer) and double check that price/maybe find out what today's price is for a couple of VW axles re-fitted with 930 CVs and boots?

Thanks ! ! !

T

I would get a 914, install a 911 6. Then rebody it as a fiberglass 356 coupe.

Then I urge you to start your own thread. I'm in need of some hard and crucial information here, not a silly pipe dream . . .

Just now got an email from Gordon answering all of my questions and solving all of my problems. Thanks all for your help with this, looks like I can actually proceed with this and have it come out successfully.

I now turn the thread over to Bill Webster.

Bill, if you're really serious about skinning a six cylinder powered 914 and covering the unibody with a 356 coupe shell, you're going to want to check this out:

http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=94288&sid=da30ff4d0d8a830b07d148deb08b848f


The result is just a smidge short of ANAZING ! !



Again, thanks all for the information and especially Angela, Mark, Alan, and David for the suggestion to slide the drivetrain rearward to make up the necessary room, and use 930 CVs, brilliant ! ! ! If it works out, everyone gets to drive it . . .

T

I realy like that mid engine outlaw! Good luck with your build Evil! Bill, lets do a patina one!!

Oh . . . I got patina . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGG8wHcVd-c

Too much patina.

HOLY SCHLITZ, TC!!!

Yeah, I'd say you got the market on Patina pretty much cornered. Should that car become drivable, I suggest that you redo the end of that video with it driving off into the sunset. Just don't hit a speed bump too hard, ok?

Larry is right about the source of the 930 CVs. If it's made in china, it's a 930 style POS... Get German. Should be illegal to call a CV made in China a 930 but I guess it's considered a style an may/may not be a proprietary name.

Hope you post pics, TC. This sounds like a cool project.

angela

Yeah, the ones I got at Raxles were supposedly from Firth in Germany. Not as rugged as the Lobro puppies (which, I think, were about $80 per end) but rugged enough for what I needed them for. I bought mine 1-1/2 years ago and in that time, with the weaker buck, prices have gone up over 30% (!!!!!!) So the moral of THAT story is spend your money NOW before prices go up even more!

gn

Oh, and Larry: WOW! Buggies have changed a LOT since I had my last one in 1973! I just checked out a few buggy sites and WOW! What sand machines!!!!

I have seen the Silver Bullit before here. It's Hot. that was one of the things that put into the idea of a 550 spyder fastback'
But with Gullwing doors to make it easyer to get in and out of

Did you notice on that pre-A car tha thad it not been for undercoating and body sealer the outer skin would have fallen off. Also, someone installed a VW transaxle in that car. The transaxle appears to be circa 1967. Whom ever owns that car has a bunch of work cutting out rust and welding in patch panels But, I've seen worse that have been resurected

Gordon, my car is 10 years old but I continually try to improve it, better engine (Subaru turbo, FI, last dyno 367 HP at 5300 RPM's) addition of bypass shocks (now has 2 shocks per corner, 1 is a coil over and the second is the bypass) The car has 20 inches of wheel travel both up and down. Last season I installed power steering and it has made it a joy to drive. At the same time, I installed taller front tires and wider rear tires

Here's a couple of photo's of my car and my rig

Hey Larry that's a nice buggy.I may need to your advice when and if I ever get back to work on my Veepster dunebuggy I need to hurry up and finsh it too.