Might switch to type lV

I have a 75 914 that I was going to restore got as far as building the 2.0 engine to 2056, the project got shelved and then I picked up Speedy. I think the Speedy is way cooler all around and I've had a 914 already so I think I will let the 914 body go and focus on the 356. It has a good little 1600 dp in it and I have a 1904 type 1 I was going to install but I think I might just drop in the type lV as it has plenty of grunt and its already built.
What configuration seems to work best in a Speedy,upright or pancake?

Most seem to convert to upright cooling - but several here have installed the flat version. With the flat you keep the thermostat and the oil cooler stays in place - plus it appears to be easier to work on. To convert to upright add a good $1k (fot kit) or go the Joe Cali conversion route (book available). Either way the rear steel frame needs more support as you'll be hanging rear of engine off it (plus can fix any butt sag at same time). You may have to clearance the rear cross member a bit (but there's good 5" more available). You'll also need a different flywheel to mate to the T1 trans (a bus T4 flywheel works or special made flywheel is available). Exhaust/headers get costly.

I wouldn't think you would need to do a rear support if you run pancake cooling. it's just a few pounds more than an upright cooling (aluminum pieces).

I have an upright T4, but i didnt even think a pancake cooling would fit - or i would have tried that first.

butt sag would be huge if you hung part of the weight of the car off the rear box frame.

wolfgang is right - exhaust can be pricey if you cannot weld.

Converted to upright with my DTM cooling system, the complete Type 4 engine weighs 23-27 pounds more than a Type 1 with a magnesium case.. If the Type 1 has an aluminum case, the difference is less than 10 pounds.

The extra weight is not notable with the engine installed into a car.

If the engine is not converted to upright the weight difference is about 60 total pounds.

There's one year where the VW bus crossed over to the type IV that has the right size flywheel for the VW trans and the right bolt pattern for the 914 engine. I think that it's the '72.

The engine hanger for that year is simple and elegant and could be used, along with the end brackets if you add the bracing to the pan to meet up with them. The type IV isn't terribly heavier, and the various steel brackets can be duplicated in aluminum, but I saw that it's a bit longer with the fan housing and such.

The flat engine will fit OK. I was looking into one for my 356 coupe and the measurements would work with a bit of trimming for the housing and side tin.

If you are strapped for room above, they make a neat KADRON set-up for the type IV that's an easy fit and looks good in place.

Use an aftermarket bus exhaust as the beginning of your system (it's already pointing in the right direction) and it'll cut the costs way down.

If you do a flat version, take TONS of pics and set up a blog as well. EVERYONE is gonna want to follow your lead.

Luck,

TC

Greg, you'll probably have to do some 'glass work on your decklid with an upright cooling system. I have the first-generation of Jake's shroud, and I was already chopping up my car with that in mind when I bought his products.
Since Wolfgang is in the process of finishing up his car (RIGHT, Wolfgang?) for Carlisle this year, you might want to give him a call.
Dude's a wealth of knowledge.
All told, my out-of-pocket expense for installing Jake's system on the Hoopty's 2424 was about $1,400 bucks. That was the $900 for the DTM kit, a new alternator, modifications to the existing generator stand, a new fan assembly (compliments of Warren Miles), the tins I had to fab for my application, a remote cooler and a box of rivets. I added steel braided lines and AN fittings for reliability's sake.
Installation with Jakes tins in a "normal" Speedster application would have been pretty painless, I think, and cost a bit less. The parts he supplied really are top-notch.
I've had no cooling problems whatsoever, and I've abused my car plenty.

Bonus, it's not a Type I. Heh, heh. ...

On mine Jake used the nice brace that CSP sells. I could tell zero difference as far as weight between my new Type IV and the Type I I started with.

Thanks for the info Guys, one of my concerns is weight and according to Jake the difference between the upright and pancake config is around 30 lbs which would also be cantilevered off the very rear of the engine. We know the CMC chassis wont even hold its own butt up never mind another 30+lbs without an ass-end suspension bridge built off of the rear shock towers I would guess.
Aesthetically I think the upright looks better but cost is a factor as well.

Gregg - I alo run an upright converted type IV. JPS included a rear engine support bar to even out not only the mild extra weight, but to stiffen up the whole engine mounting and help with any engine torque issues. Later, I built my own rear support to jog around a merged header install.

I still have an unused rear support that came from (I think) a bus. Bolts right up to engine. Frame mounts are on you, but simple. I also have a copy of Calli's conversion book. Contact me if interested.

Thanks David, I still need to buy those front wheel spacers off of you as well, just to much work, no time. I talked to Doc Clock and Bruce Stumpp about a new tank and maybe centering the filler on it, probably need to do that first, then start configuring the type lV.
I need to first come up with a way to hang the mount bar like you have, must check out your pics. Or take you up on your kind offer to meet up some where. Hey how about the R.S.F Mobil for some $9 fuel? I drove past today and saw some hot Euro metal filling up there.I should ask Wolfgang as well.

Jack, I looked on the CSP website and couldn't find the brace, it may be something they make for Jake only? I'll look on Jake's site, Tom Slider has a lot of info too, it seems there is or was some collaboration between those two. I saw somewhere a Corvair looking fan arrangement but I seemed it was poo-pooed as not efficient. I dont want to re-invent the wheel but it would be neat to use the stock flat config in this Speedy. I wonder if Joe Cali and Jake worked on the upright version because most of these were going into bugs? There seems to be more room in a Speedy engine compartment.

Their may be plenty of room, but the fan is horribly placed with the stock arrangement.

I always carry out upright conversions to make for a more compact, lighter, cleaner installation that is efficient. Plus, that dreaded 75 degree temperature delta between the left and right cylinder heads is eliminated completely..

I drove 3,450 miles with a 180HP engine and maintained less than an 18 degree temperature delta at an average speed of 76 MPH. Spending oney going upright will be money saved in the long run.

Jake, I certainly acknowledge your technical experience with type Vl's, but with your above comment being said, would you run an upright cooling systemor if there were overhead room in a 914 or a bus? I didn't really have any cooling problems with my other 2 liter 914. I just mean if it was good enough for a heavier 914 it should be acceptable maybe not perfectly optimal. I know you go for the best possible solution with your installations but there may be a satisfactory economical solution using the stock flat configuration in a Replica Speedster? Just curious. : )
I'm not talking about a half-assed install, that would be throwing money away.

My thought on rear brace was more to handle torque/power than extra weight (plus fixing butt sag at same time). Disadvantage of the flat cooling is with all the exhaust right there where the fan sucks cooling air in you'd have to seal the area so you weren't sucking in hot air for cooling. On the VW bus and 411/412 the muffler is pretty much exposed, on 914 it a long heat exchanger and fan is clear other end. Just add a 16 gallon tank (6 gal x 8# = 48#) and all is balanced pretty much the same.

Good point Wolfgang, moving the fan away from the exhaust is probably a main reason for an upright config. The Reichert system puts the fan on top but flat, any current examples of that I wonder?

I'd think main reason is the extra 6 inches in length - which would not fit into a T1 Bug. The 1 year 1976 912E used it flat and just separated the engine air from the hot exhaust air. Some metal tins would do the trick. I was going to use VW 411/412 heat exchangers since I could still have heat that way. Probably with a Monza or Bursh exhaust. I'm sure its restrictive but was going to build pretty much stock 1.8L (thinking 80-100 hp). The 412 heat exchangers apparently pre-heat the air going into the gas heater (no internal fin heat sink) - I think it would be enough to clear windshield and thaw out fingers though. The bus exchangers appear longer and are heavier due to aluminum cooling fins - they would work though. I think any T4 bus flywheel - probably up to wasserbox engine would work (a 210 or 215mm from a 1.7/1.8L - not the 228mm).

http://www.tunacan.net is a great reference on what's needed.

Although it's a Type 1, scroll through these photo's until you find the engine

http://www.spyderclub.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=11980&start=0

Oh yeah, don't drool too much on your keyboard after you look at these photo's

Larry - WOW! WOW! WOW!!!

Not sure what I was thinking, the engine listed in the link above IS A Type IV, not a Type 1 as I stated (my bad)

gb:

The unit I bought was a CSP product and I got it from cip1.
It's called a "Torque bar kit" (C31-301-255-100-CSP)) and consists of a triangle affair , CNC machined aluminum bars with corbner brackets and a hardware kit (AC-C10-5461.

It is used to support the weight in the rear plus control torque.

You can view the installation directions on the CSP website.

Do NOT do what I did which was to get next day air shipping for $144.00. The cost of the unit is about $350.00 with a 15% discount they had running when I bought ine.

It's a well made item and looks really good installed.

That's watcha need.---Good luck with it!

Larry - your photo is of the the other alternative cooling that someone referenced. I call it the Corvair solution. It just doesn't look very elegant to me -- compared to the 911 Porsche shroud or DTM --- or even the OEM flat cooling. Somehow long fan belts bending at 90 degrees don't look right. Looks like its just waiting to ingest a rag or your tie or fingers!

Hey Greg! Do you want to sell that 1904 type 1? I am in San Diego.

Mike

Wolf,,,,
Yes, I agree about ingesting "things" but, It sure does look nice!!

Wolfgang, I agree about the length,thanks for the info on the heater boxes,even tho in Cali its still cold a night like right now!

Larry , thanks for the link to Antoine's Speedy, I had seen it before on the 356 registry site but forgot where it was.

Jack, I'll look for the mount on CIP1 Thanks, Jake sure did a beautiful job on your rig! Very well thought out and executed.

Mike, I think my son is putting the clamp on it for his Ghia were restoring. If that changes I'll let you know.

I'm still doing research on the project and its running (kinda) right now so I will probably build the type lV for future install, and just have some fun driving Speedy for a little while as it has been reconfigured from the roller skate it was and not drivable.

Doing some looking into using the 914 5 speed trans too which I see has been discussed here before. Some one here mentioned Erco sold a swingaxle conversion for the 901 trans. I'll have to look into that.I sure like the Riechert fan tho, its a little bit Corvairy. Sure is different.

One of my friends suggested to keep the 914 complete as they are coming up in value and use my Manx irs pan to build another base for my Speedy body,seems like a lot of SOCer's are doing or have done this. That way I can build what I want with the body off(easier) and still drive Speedy. A 1.8 wasser VeeDub (not bus) sounds cool,or Suby. I like the idea of stock or close to it h.p. versus built up aircooled. A built up type 1 or type lV is not cheep anymore even if doing it oneself. A stock or close to it watercooled engine can give lots of reliable hp and seemingly not cost as much if DIY. Then there is the whole,: its a old Porsche replica so why change it? But every one is changing it anyways so WTH. I just wanna drive it and not break down as economically as possible.

GB - I sound like a broken record on this topic, but for me, stock or close to stock engine is the way to go. To me the few times I would stick my foot into the accelerator of a big HP motor in my Speedy is not worth the increased COST, maintenance & repair. But that's just me! Besides, if I did have a big HP motor I KNOW I would have to deal with the traffic tickets I would get.

All I can say is, EVERY single time I've turned the ignition key on my daily-driver 1835cc Speedy, it starts right up and I drive off to my destination, near or far, and it gets me there and back without issue or worry. It has done so relatively trouble-free for 120,000 Km (75,000 miles).

...I'm just saying...

You already got a good running 1600 in it , right ?
All you need is a little more OOMPH .
This could DOUBLE your HP
Prob run a few grand at most.

http://www.lowbugget.com/main_page.html

Jim and Dave, I apologize for not making myself clear.
I agree that a mildly built air-cooled type 1 is enough for daily driving. I was talking about a stock 1.8 water-cooled inline 4 cyl.They put out 140-150 hp bone stock and are pretty bullet proof and cost less or the same as a built up type1.This has been discussed before and there are Speedy's with 1.8T "New Beetle" engine already.Of course there is a fir amount of engineering to utilize a new water-cooled engine so its probably a wash.
All that been said I can build any config of type 1 or type lV I was just thinking about picking up a 1.8 WCVW and not having to maintain a type 1 with carbs ect. Rather be sailing than wrenching every 3000 miles,ect air cooled chores.

I realize its not much work and keeps in the spirit of the 356 ACVW mindset, but new technology and relatively stock ,economical HP is an interesting diversion sine its going to cost upwards of $2500 to convert a typelV to upright configuration.