Any of you citizens had any working experience with a mild turbocharger? Sure would appreciate your thoughts?
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Any of you citizens had any working experience with a mild turbocharger? Sure would appreciate your thoughts?
When planning my new engine I considered including a turbo. In the end I decided not to, because to run properly, and produce decent boost, a turbo needs to be intercooled, and installing an intercooler in a speedster (with proper air flow) isn't the easiest thing to do.
True to a point but not totally accurate. A turbo will boost until the waste gate opens or the heads explode, intercooler or not.
An intercooler cools the compressed air which can and will reach high temperatures due to two distinct factors: the compressor side of the turbo is attached to the turbine which is fed directly from the exhaust, thus "heat". The second is that compressed air heats up during compression.
As the compressed air increases in temperature, it becomes less oxygen rich and less dense.
In many cases, an intercooler causes a drop in pressure but makes up for it by transferring heat from the compressed air.
An engine will produce a lot of power without an intercooler and for years, no intercoolers were used. As we progressed and discovered new things, the use of intercoolers became the standard by which most builders adhere.
In the 80's I had a 2276 VW engine with a pull through turbo, no intercooler and a 45mm Delorto side draft carburetor in my sandrail. That engine was extremely fast and nobody could touch me when pulling the largest sand hill at the Imperial Sand Dunes (Glamis)
But, that was the 80's My built 2.5 Subaru engine in my current sandrail has an intercooler and lays horizontal about 12 inches above the engine. I also have an air scoop that directs air across the cooling fins as I'm moving forward. On the dyno, it was good for about 15 more HP.
An intercooler cools the compressed air which can and will reach high temperatures due to two distinct factors: the compressor side of the turbo is attached to the turbine which is fed directly from the exhaust, thus "heat". The second is that compressed air heats up during compression.
As the compressed air increases in temperature, it becomes less oxygen rich and less dense.
In many cases, an intercooler causes a drop in pressure but makes up for it by transferring heat from the compressed air.
An engine will produce a lot of power without an intercooler and for years, no intercoolers were used. As we progressed and discovered new things, the use of intercoolers became the standard by which most builders adhere.
In the 80's I had a 2276 VW engine with a pull through turbo, no intercooler and a 45mm Delorto side draft carburetor in my sandrail. That engine was extremely fast and nobody could touch me when pulling the largest sand hill at the Imperial Sand Dunes (Glamis)
But, that was the 80's My built 2.5 Subaru engine in my current sandrail has an intercooler and lays horizontal about 12 inches above the engine. I also have an air scoop that directs air across the cooling fins as I'm moving forward. On the dyno, it was good for about 15 more HP.
If your goingto turbo an air cooled engine there is only one way to do it and have it be reliable. Turbo injection... I've done several of these and made over 300hp on pump gas. Go race gas and we can make over 800 depending on what you want to do....
As for you application, I would do a mild engine like a 1914 to all the way to a 2276 with a turbo injection system and youl make 200hp + on pump gas with about 8-10 pounds of boost. I did a 2276 engine in a Manxter build and broke the driver's seat.....
I'm building a 2332 turbo injection powerd bug right now that should make around 300hp on pump gas...
What else would you like to know about turbos???
As for you application, I would do a mild engine like a 1914 to all the way to a 2276 with a turbo injection system and youl make 200hp + on pump gas with about 8-10 pounds of boost. I did a 2276 engine in a Manxter build and broke the driver's seat.....
I'm building a 2332 turbo injection powerd bug right now that should make around 300hp on pump gas...
What else would you like to know about turbos???
If you can weld exh tubing , you can do this for under $1000. Heck you could blow that ona set Webers !!
TheSamba has some informative turbo threads .
I've collected most of the components to do this , but the stock 2L TIV still has enough powa to keep me intrested.
Prob will save them for the Volvo1800
Alu heads+aircooled = disaster unless you got telemetry. At least a WB, and CHT/EGT
would be nice.
Then Knock sensor/sparkretard for down-the-road reliability
TheSamba has some informative turbo threads .
I've collected most of the components to do this , but the stock 2L TIV still has enough powa to keep me intrested.
Prob will save them for the Volvo1800
Alu heads+aircooled = disaster unless you got telemetry. At least a WB, and CHT/EGT
would be nice.
Then Knock sensor/sparkretard for down-the-road reliability
One BIG thing to consider when welding exhaust tubing specifically for a Turbo set up---- When you weld, metal builds up on the inside of the tubing. If any of that metal breaks off, it will travel right into the turbine blades of the Turbo and more than likely cause serious damage. I know of a header builder that uses a aceletyne/oxygen torch and fuse welds all of his header pipes. This ensures that no metal builds up on the inside of the tubing. He's expensive but does quality work.
In regard to what Kevin said about Fuel Injection. He's correct. Ak Miller who was a forerunner in turbo application worked with carburetors and developed many tricks to enrich the fuel mixture when under boost but, it was always a hit or miss proposition.
With programmable fuel injeciton, it's relatively easy for the a trained person to set the fuel curve to enrichen during boost thus causing more power to be generated and, it keeps the engine from going lean and exploding. Also, EFI has the ability to retard spark as turbo pressure builds and some can even trigger your turbo to blow off boost should detonation be present and, it makes for a much cleaner running engine. Proper engine management also provides more efficiency in the burn mixture which translates to better mileage.
In regard to what Kevin said about Fuel Injection. He's correct. Ak Miller who was a forerunner in turbo application worked with carburetors and developed many tricks to enrich the fuel mixture when under boost but, it was always a hit or miss proposition.
With programmable fuel injeciton, it's relatively easy for the a trained person to set the fuel curve to enrichen during boost thus causing more power to be generated and, it keeps the engine from going lean and exploding. Also, EFI has the ability to retard spark as turbo pressure builds and some can even trigger your turbo to blow off boost should detonation be present and, it makes for a much cleaner running engine. Proper engine management also provides more efficiency in the burn mixture which translates to better mileage.
Interestingly enough, when I ordered my CB fuel injection system I asked Pat Downs about also including the CB turbo. His first question to me was, "City or highway driving?" When I said, "Mainly highway," he told me to just go with the fuel injection. I did.
Thanks for all the good info! About 60/40 city to highway driving. CB says to include FI. I'm just talkin at this point so it's just BS so far. Kevin, I wouldn't want the turbo to change runs to the grocery store, etc.??? Ive been told that I would have much less tinkering with a turbo and FI than with just a larger engine.... Currently have 2110, webers, etc. Maybe 115 to 120 horses. Thank you all again. Bob
I like the turbo kit from DRD http://www.drdracingheads.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=80&products_id=164
Single throttle body is nice.
Single throttle body is nice.
$4K without the turbo or fuel injection!?
3200 geezils for turbo kit from CB. Not sure if that includes FI. Will get update on monday. Mark at CB states that turbo increases hp about 2x. Any thoughts?
A turbo will make an inordinate amount of HP but it all depends on your engine. You'll need to start with low compression or drastically reduce the amount of boost. It's not uncommon to easily get 2 times the amount of HP but,,, it's a deceiving statement. If you start with a low compression engine that produces only 70 or 80 HP then doubling that isn't worth the investment since you can get that amount of HP without a turbo.
On the other hand, if the engine is built correctly and the turbo boost and fuel curve are engineered to give you HP and reliability then 250 HP isn't uncommon with pump gas.
You really need to plan your goal when investing in FI and a Turbo.
On the other hand, if the engine is built correctly and the turbo boost and fuel curve are engineered to give you HP and reliability then 250 HP isn't uncommon with pump gas.
You really need to plan your goal when investing in FI and a Turbo.
I forgot to mention that there are numerous sizes of turbo's on the market. Small turbo's give good bottom end and get up to speed in a very short time (""The infamous "THEY" call this spooling up"") and they run out of compressor power early in your RPM range. In other words, it reaches it maximum boost "compressing incoming air" early on. This is great for quick get aways from a stop light and up to about 1 mile but, after that, they can't compress any more air and your power band flattens out. A larger turbo starts to build boost at a higher RPM and is great for top end power. Most VW engines work best with a smaller turbo. I'm sure you've heard the term "turbo lag" That occurs during the time it takes for the turbo to come up to speed and compress the incoming air. During this time, the car is "sort of" normally aspirated but when the turbo kicks in, hold on to you pants. On my fuel injected Subaru in my sandrail is a relatively small turbo as I'm looking for bottom end power to climb sand hills.
On my firt turbo Subaru, I had a turbo that came off a Chevy Syclone pick up truck that had a V-6. The turbo was too large as power didn't start until around 4,000 RPM's. Of course that car was about 500 pounds lighter than my current long travel car so it still had a lot of power.
On my firt turbo Subaru, I had a turbo that came off a Chevy Syclone pick up truck that had a V-6. The turbo was too large as power didn't start until around 4,000 RPM's. Of course that car was about 500 pounds lighter than my current long travel car so it still had a lot of power.
Bob, $3200 buys you the full kit-fuel injection and turbo. I paid $2000 for my CB Fuel injection kit.
Mango, unless I'm missing something $4000 buys you the fuel injection and turbo package.
Mango, unless I'm missing something $4000 buys you the fuel injection and turbo package.
ready to roll with FI and modest Turbo kit. All the thoughts and knowledge boosters sure helped. Thanks. More to follow upon completion. Bob
Hey Bob. Keep me posted on this.
Troy
Troy
Ron - you are totally right. don't know how i missed that!
"*This system is desgined to be used with the our Haltech fuel injection kit, to eliminate trouble some carb tunning problems. The EFI is fully tuneable via external computer and windows software.
*This kit is complete, with all parts need to install the turbo kit .
* High output fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator, included new distributor locked out.
*New Garret t3 super 60 turbo, good for 14lbs of boost, and up to 300hp output, with built in waste gate.
* Pre programmed HALTECH Efi computer with injectors, wiring harness, connectors, sensors and programming software included.
*Intake manifold, end castings, with all intake plumbing, clamps, air cleaner, turbo header, gaskets and oil lines are included, throttle body and required parts to complete installation.
*This kit is designed to work 1900CC and larger type 1 engines. This kit contains all the parts needed to COVERT over your engine to a turbo apllication. The engine is not included with this kit."
"*This system is desgined to be used with the our Haltech fuel injection kit, to eliminate trouble some carb tunning problems. The EFI is fully tuneable via external computer and windows software.
*This kit is complete, with all parts need to install the turbo kit .
* High output fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator, included new distributor locked out.
*New Garret t3 super 60 turbo, good for 14lbs of boost, and up to 300hp output, with built in waste gate.
* Pre programmed HALTECH Efi computer with injectors, wiring harness, connectors, sensors and programming software included.
*Intake manifold, end castings, with all intake plumbing, clamps, air cleaner, turbo header, gaskets and oil lines are included, throttle body and required parts to complete installation.
*This kit is designed to work 1900CC and larger type 1 engines. This kit contains all the parts needed to COVERT over your engine to a turbo apllication. The engine is not included with this kit."
Dont fget the FI gas tank (has return fitting) .
and a stage 1 clutch kit (now or later)
Is this the setup ?
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=286
Sure it'll fit?
Thats why I recommend making the header y'seff
(and also i'm a cheep bastid)
If I was designing a header I'd route the pipes so the turbo mounted to L or R of the engine rather than behind.
and a stage 1 clutch kit (now or later)
Is this the setup ?
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=286
Sure it'll fit?
Thats why I recommend making the header y'seff
(and also i'm a cheep bastid)
If I was designing a header I'd route the pipes so the turbo mounted to L or R of the engine rather than behind.
One of the things that turned me off the CB and DRD turbo kits was that they can't be used with heater boxes and air tubing from the shroud.