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I would like the power benefits of an A-1 Sidewinder, but I want it to look more like a 356 barrel muffler.  Is it feasible to add a barrel on the last section so that it is more 356ish?  Obviously, I suppose I'm looking for a custom solution.

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I copied this photo from a 2013 thread (thanks, Henry, whoever you are).  I understand this isn't a sidewinder because it has two mufflers, but it illustrates the concept.  What would it do to the physics to make the final stage before the tailpipes a barrel?

I would think that it would even improve the draw factor, causing more vacuum by having a bigger muffler box.

There is also the problem of clearance and scraping, so that is an issue.  I do live around speed bumps.

I literally know nothing about exhaust.  Can people here weigh in who actually understand the way an exhaust system works for power?

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Last edited by Teammccalla
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It Is an A1 sidewinder. Henry (owner at the time of Intermeccanica the picture was posted) bought a header from Tiger at A1 and built his own exhaust after the header collector. I (and others) have done the same thing.

Exhaust tuning is a huge subject, but you can get the basics in a book called Four-Stroke Power Tuning by a guy named A. Graham Bell (seriously). There is a section in the book on exhaust tuning, which is worth the price of admission.

Regarding the picture - this setup is excellent for power, assuming those are magnaflow mufflers (I think they are).

Last edited by Stan Galat

@Stan Galat  Thanks, Stan.  So it IS an A1 and magnaflows!  Sounds like those may be the first two building blocks.  I suspected as much, but I wasn't sure about Henry's setup.  It look 90% of what I want, just missing the barrel.  I wonder if he put it through the bumper to give him extra speed-bump clearance.

I will call Tiger and see what he can do.  The more I can get through him, the better, as I see it.  Maybe he has an end to end solution?  If not, I am sure there will be a way.  There are plenty of hot-rodders here in the Bay Area.

Here is one possible solution that looks like it is from Tiger https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3530.htm :

3530-4

The thought is that we already have dual pea-shooters, so the trick would be to have a barrel.  One member suggested that a muffler place could build a sleeve around the existing structure that does nothing except look like a 356 barrel.  Interesting idea because it would do nothing at all to what Tiger already has here.  I notice that the pea-shooters tend to be mounted through the bumper.  I would not prefer that.  More questions to answer....

I will find the book.  I believe in situations like these that nothing is a good substitute for learning and understanding for yourself.  I am sure I'll ask plenty of dumb questions, but I appreciate the tips.

So, dumb question #1, Stan.  Don't sidewinders have a single muffler on one side?  Any idea why Henry used two?

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Last edited by Teammccalla

My old 356s had what I came to understand were called Abarth mufflers: routing to the large can at tye rear with four small 2x2 "pea shooters" out the back, under the bumper.  I have always understood this to be the quintessential 356 set up.  I would have had that on my Speedster but was told that with the 2332 there really was just no way, and besides the Sidewinder would work much better as it was correctly tuned for good flow, and folks understood that. It was a proven set up for that large engine.  Mucking about with the pipe lengths and routing can seriously affect engine breathing, hence power.

@Teammccalla wrote- "Don't sidewinders have a single muffler on one side?  Any idea why Henry used two?"

The term sidewinder refers  to the orientation of the header tubing going across (from left to right) into the collector.  Henry used 2 mufflers to quieten down the exhaust noise for his customers.  There's no reason you can't build a section to look like a stock 356 muffler that goes around the last part of the exhaust tubing with the tips coming through.

@ALB posted:

The term sidewinder refers  to the orientation of the header tubing going across (from left to right) into the collector.  Henry used 2 mufflers to quieten down the exhaust noise for his customers.  There's no reason you can't build a section to look like a stock 356 muffler that goes around the last part of the exhaust tubing with the tips coming through.

That's it exactly - "Sidewinder" is the layout of the header. A1 sidewinder headers are available from any number of places, including direct from Tiger. I got two custom headers out of Tiger (collector further back to clear a dry-sump) and it took almost a year in both instances. He's a good guy, but he's busy doing things his way.

Regarding the A1 Sidewinder header: His collector is second to none. The primaries are not equal length, and they're too long to be optimal - but "optimal" points the collector straight out the back. When I was going down this rabbit hole, I talked to John Connelly about it (John was a ME who quit to start a VW parts business, no longer in business). John said, "you know - optimal is great, but an exhaust has to work acceptably well and still fit the car. It also has to be quiet enough to be drivable". It was good advice - the location of the engine and the layout of the package make "perfect" impossible. We get what we get, and don't throw a fit.

Exhaust tuning is pretty cool, and if you read the section covering it in the A. Graham Bell book I referenced, you'll feel like a small child in a physics class. There's not a lot new under the sun.

The thing about a true 4/1 header (as opposed to a can collector) is that because of the Bernoulli effect, a properly constructed and sized collector will actually draw a vacuum on the closed exhaust valve of any particular cylinder. Forget the nonsense about "back pressure" - this vacuum is what makes an engine with cam overlap (both valves open at the same time) even run, and it's very, very strong. Optimizing that vacuum is what exhaust tuning is all about. As I said two paragraphs above - we're not going to get to completely optimal under all conditions because of packaging limitations, and because a perfect header for making power at 7000 RPM is not the same configuration as one making power at 3000 RPM. Creating a nice wide powerband is where the magic is, but everything in life is a compromise. Again, we get what we get, and don't throw a fit.

The outlet size of the collector is super-important. Tiger's headers are built so that what happens after the outlet isn't nearly as important as if the collector outlet was full sized. What you'll see if you get one from Tiger, @Teammccalla, is that the ID of the collector is pretty small - the collector cone is long and at the appropriate optimal angle, but you'll need to blow up from there. This is the "normal" way a good VW header is built (small collector), but not normal for V8 headers or the cheesy EMPI headers with no real collectors -- so if that is your frame of reference, they'll look wrong. What you want is to blow up to a long 2-1/2" pipe, or a shorter pipe dumping into a chamber. A Porsche/Vintage Speed/Bursch style "can" is fine, but a chambered muffler works too, as does the big wide world (if you can stand the sound). I love the sound, so that's what I do (with an exhaust cut-out).

Henry's pictured design was ideal because Magnaflow mufflers (and glass-packs in general) work just like a straight pipe, and there's nothing as sweet-sounding (no droning, mellow sound, nice "bark") as a long, straight pipe with a couple of glass packs in line. With the can, you never know what you'll get as far as a sound, but the look is right (if that's important). The sound might be great with a short pipe going into it or it might not. It'll sound good with a long pipe no matter what.

I built one almost exactly like the one pictured about 10 years back. The sound and performance is great, but you'll need to drop it every time you adjust the valves. I don't think that's a big deal, but there are those who think it is.

Last edited by Stan Galat

While we're talking about mufflers, I'm looking for two quieter ones for my Speedster.   I have two, but they're fed from  "Y" in the middle of the car by a Berg 932 header/collector with a muffler on each side.  

The dimensions are as follows, but I could fudge around them a little to get something that works.  

Inlet/outlet = 1-3/4"

Length = 18"

Width = 6"

Height = 3-1/2"

Anyone have a good source I could talk to or can you point me to a good website??  These are relatively high flow, but they've always been loud so looking for something quiet.

Or should I just head for the Magna-Flow website?

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

@Stan Galat I don't know the validity of this claim, but I was recently speaking with an engine builder (Powerhaus) that is doing a motor for one of my clients and he was resistant to using the A1 sidewinder built for heater boxes.  His claim was that the heater box version has the order of tubes at the collector switched around from the non-heater box version in order to make it easier to build, and it was pressurizing the overlapped valves instead of scavenging them.  He went as far as to say he spoke with Tiger about this and include a note on the customer's quote that said Tiger was going to custom make the "heater box" headers in the "old style" sidewinder with the proper 1432 firing order for proper scavenging...  

I haven't paid enough attention to the A1 systems we use today to notice the change in tube order at the collector, BUT I've also not experienced any issues that would lead me to start looking either...

That would be deeply troubling, Carey.

I've got a 1-5/8" A1 sidewinder header for heater boxes I haven't used in years (big heater boxes long ago sold), but 18 years ago they were correct. I've got 4 A1s (one on the car, three in my stash) ranging from 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 primaries -- all at least 7 or 8 years old. All of them are configured correctly.

Last edited by Stan Galat

FWIW, my 2332 A1 Sidewinder has a passenger side mounted Magnaflow, and I have heater boxes.  It is all JPS speced equipment, or what he received from his engine builder.  I do have to remove the Magnaflow to adjust the right-side valves.  Some extra wrenching, but it goes pretty straight forward.  The system has a rather large single pipe out the back, centered.  At modest throttle, just putting along, it is pretty quiet, considering the inherent noisiness of an air cooled mill.  I believe, and as others who have followed along behind me have bothered to explain, when I get on it, it sounds pretty good.  Is it optimally tuned, given the physical constraints?  I have no idea.  It is what it is, I ain't changing it.  "we get what we get, and don't throw a fit."

@Teammccalla also wrote- "Does anyone know if there is a sacrifice to smoothness or other aspects of performance or reliability with the A1?"

One unique 'feature' of Tiger's Sidewinder design (because of the longer than optimal primary tubing? or could it be not enough volume after the collector/before the muffler?) is a slight dip in power from about 3,000- 34 or 3500 rpm.  The more cam timing an engine has, it seems, the more pronounce the dip is.  It isn't really noticeable when driving (most don't even feel it) or cause much in tuning troubles in milder engines, but it gave Darren K (a local VW head porter and engine builder who really knows his stuff) fits when he installed a 1 5/8(?)" Sidewinder on the 2276 cc, Engle K8, 48 IDA equipped engine in his Cal Look '63 Beetle.  This is a combination (with a regular merged header) he has recommended and built several times over the years for customers, isn't normally hard to tune, will go past 6500 rpm with power, normally give 12 second ¼ mile times and because of it's size is quite drivable in traffic, even with stock gears.  Despite numerous jetting (air and fuel), emulsion tube and even venturi changes he couldn't work the dip all the way out and get it to pull cleanly through the entire rpm range.  After throwing on a conventional merged exhaust (and returning the carburetors to the jetting, emulsion tubes and venturi's he knew from experience would be a good start) it responded to tuning as expected.

I know there are hundreds (maybe by now thousands?) of A1 Sidewinders out there that people are apparently happy with, so I don't know what the answer is.

Last edited by ALB

@Teammccalla

Randy, here is a video I've posted several times for an audio reference to the sound of an A-1 Sidewinder. This video was made years ago with my previous VS with and 1835cc engine.

I have the similar set-up with my current VS and 1915cc engine. I like the throaty sound during acceleration and it tones down quite a bit at cruising speed and not an annoying droning sound that gets old on a long cruise on the highway.

Anyway, I hope this info and video is useful.

@Teammccalla posted:

I would like the power benefits of an A-1 Sidewinder, but I want it to look more like a 356 barrel muffler.  Is it feasible to add a barrel on the last section so that it is more 356ish?  Obviously, I suppose I'm looking for a custom solution.

P1050727

I copied this photo from a 2013 thread (thanks, Henry, whoever you are).  I understand this isn't a sidewinder because it has two mufflers, but it illustrates the concept.  What would it do to the physics to make the final stage before the tailpipes a barrel?

I would think that it would even improve the draw factor, causing more vacuum by having a bigger muffler box.

There is also the problem of clearance and scraping, so that is an issue.  I do live around speed bumps.

I literally know nothing about exhaust.  Can people here weigh in who actually understand the way an exhaust system works for power?

Beautiful but impossible to do a valve adjustment on it. Wonder how they manage?

@IaM-Ray Is it really that easy to remove, using his v-clamps?  They come standard with the “deluxe” package he offers.  I texted Tiger to confirm he won’t make the dual muffler style.  That is still what I would prefer.

I am excited about getting it.  I may go to Weber 44s, as well.  I want “go fast” as much as the next guy, but I don’t want hassles either.  A new clean set of Webers should be a happy medium.  My plan is to install the simple inline filters before and after the gas tank to help reduce jet fouling issues.

@Teammccalla I can tell you from years of experience that Tiger (A1 owner) dosn't like to stray from his original formulas too much.  We do something similar to Henry and make all of our own exhaust sections from the sidewinder collector to the tips, sometimes a single muffler and sometimes a dual, but we do it in house, using Tiger's parts.  Fortunately he sends us the systems in raw steel so we can work with them immediately and then we use a local ceramic coater afterwards.

@Stan Galat posted:

I got two custom headers out of Tiger (collector further back to clear a dry-sump) and it took almost a year in both instances. He's a good guy, but he's busy doing things his way.

@chines1 posted:

@Teammccalla I can tell you from years of experience that Tiger (A1 owner) dosn't like to stray from his original formulas too much.

The manreally doesn't like custom work.

@Impala posted:

Beautiful but impossible to do a valve adjustment on it. Wonder how they manage?

@Stan Galat posted:

I built one almost exactly like the one pictured about 10 years back. The sound and performance is great, but you'll need to drop it every time you adjust the valves. I don't think that's a big deal, but there are those who think it is.

It's really not a big deal.

Checking back in to give an update.  I went with a standard 1 5/8 A-1 Sidewinder with dual peashooters.  I bought the little sound restrictor Tiger sells and punched holes in it until I found the sound I liked and the power was optimized (without detracting from the sound I liked.

For posterity in case people are considering upgrading, the Sidewinder without the optional restrictor made significantly more power.  My guess is 10-15 hp at least.  It could even have been 20.  I didn't like the sound at all though.  If you want hot VW sound, it was perfect.  If you want something more like a hot 356, it was not it.

When I put the restrictor in, it was basically back to stock as far as power, but the sound was much more like a Porsche.  Punching bigger holes in the restrictor gradually bigger until I had the power and sound I wanted was the ticket.  I am very happy with the result.

Also, per @JoelP question, I didn't need to make any adjustments to the tune of the Kadrons Greg had on there stock.  It was just bolt on and go.

Personally, I would highly recommend the upgrade.  It absolutely unlocks more "fun factor" in the car.

FullSizeRender

Here is the restrictor piece I punched bigger holes in to “tune” the power/sound balance.

IMG_4940

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Last edited by Teammccalla

I swapped the stock mufflers on my BMW R100. It was so quiet stock, it was like riding a sewing machine!

I got some Café Racer type glasspacks. The mufflers were way too short, so I got some Triumph TR-something chrome exhaust tips that worked as extensions. The glasspacks came with steel many-holed inserts similar to the above. There were three large holes around the central exit. These mufflers went way over to the too loud side. I simply welded up one of the three holes on each insert. Perfect! A little growl and noise without making my ears ring.

It is a fine line to walk, but kudos to getting it done, @Teammccalla!

20220630_143046

I know, not the best photo, but you get the gist. Besides, the bike is gone now.

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