More Ethanol...How will it effect our engines and fuel componrnts?

Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced that it was increasing the allowable percentage of corn-based ethanol that could be legally blended into gasoline, raising the limit from 10% to 15%,

Read more: http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/2010/10/13/energy-the-epa-will-put-more-ethanol-in-your-tank%E2%80%94but-its-going-to-cost-you/#ixzz12LWSdK5h

I think some of the problems I've had lately are ethanol-related. Now this comes along. Are they trying to kill our hobby?

Really need to avoid the ethanol in older vehicles. It tends to be significantly corrosive to rubber and certain plastics. My prediction is that you'll rot the fuel lines from the inside out with the first indicator as clogged jets, followed by dangerous fuel leaks.

Your fuel economy will suffer (proven) and your horsepower will also go down (proven).

This is not good stuff for any engine, but it's really pretty bad for older carbureted engines.

angela

Look up both Bioroot Energy and Envirolene on the web. They are making a single alcahol fuel from waste.. Have proven the systems and are working on funding. I'm not a tree hugger but if this can work they can take municipal waste and have a final product that is a top notch fuel. Do not know if they have tested for engine degradation but they can go as high as 25% blend and increase HP and fuel economy. Once they get this off the ground I believe we will begin to see a drop in mixed alcahol corn based additives and a move towards Envirlene. Stuff even works in Diesel.

All this from suits in D C who don't even have a diver's license and get visited regularly by the farm lobby.

Other interesting fact about Ethanol is that it has an octane rating up around 100. Unfortunately, to take advanage of that, you need to do some serious engine redesign, especially on fuel induction systems and cam profiles. They have done some work in those area down in Brazil where they regularly run E-85, or something like that.

But then we all ready got home built engines. And we got JAKE and ART and . . . . !

I have just been through this

Change all the rubber hoses to Ethanol compatible, increase the jetting by about 12%, clean the fuel tank and lines out REALLY well or the ethanol will do it for you and bung up your carb/injectors, and rebuild the carbs with ethanol compatible rubber bits - this may be a problem.

You may need to increase the compression and timing. The good news is that it will run cooler, but consume more fuel

Curious Robert , Whats the price of gas/whatever it is you burn there in Siam ??!!

that SINGHA beer will burn

The article I read said the 15% blend would have to be dispensed from a separate pump alongside the 10%. That should discourage most retailers from selling the stuff, unless the EPA says they have to.

Whatta bet the farm lobby is working on that angle? Notice that the difference between 10% and 15% Ethanol is 50% more Ethanol. Now if I were the CFO . . .

Maybe a silly question...but, in their infinite wisdom of saving the world from everything that might theoretically warm the Earth .0005 degrees over the next century or so, or even a far flung theory of such.... did any of the saviors come up with a rubber-like compound that will allow people with autos, (and boats) that run on gasoline continue to run them without eating up that stuff and clogging up the fuel delivery system? This should be a moot point, but somehow I think they have a mentality of "just act now and fix it later". Duh...oh yeah...never thought of that...What are we supposed to do, just rebuild everything every year or so?

Al - you just passed Politics 101.

nascar just announced that next year they will be using 15% enthol in all the fuels, a special truck from sunoco will be at the track, so it wont get mixed with the other stuff. they claim already that it makes more power. bill

Just came back from a 3 day ride on my Harley tuned to run on E10/95. Seat of the pants power meter seems similar to good old petrol, however consumption is WAY up.

Fuel here in Thailand is 95 octane using an average of RON + MON which equates to 91 on the US AKI system. Cost is 1.14 US per liter or 4.39 per USG using the 10% ethanol product.

Good old petrol is still available but only 91 (RON + MON) at 4.62 USG but the government seems determined to discontinue it as all their friends have build ethanol plants.

I have just finished outfitting my teat equipment to better gather the data associated with the fuel changes. Over the next few months my primary R&D goal is to gather CHT and EGT data as well as MPG, torque and HP from the various fuels with back to back evaluations. Coming up with a standard enrichment ratio for existing engines that will have to change fuels in the near term.

This has the possibility of creating issues for the entire industry unless we understand the effects of the fuel on aircooled engines ASAP and make the necessary changes.

Nothing has been done to help our old engines, first oil changed and now fuel and it will get worse... A lot worse.

I'll be posting my findings on my forums.

When I and Mr Vestal built the engine. thats now in the D last year we talked about the ethenal problem I put longer rods and pistons with the wrist pins higher up near the rings to help it some . But seals and hoses and even the fuel pumps will be problems. PLEASE! Post us a list of suppiers that have ethaneol compadable parts.

I want to finish my upgrades as soon as possible I have teflon hoses on the D It's Ok..

But It needs to be done to the bug NOW. I have already had one hosed and the fuel pump.. Go bad on the Bug ..I drive it 30 miles everyday.

The ethtanol is already a problem..

Tnx Jake ~

Jake, I'd like to know more about that "teat equipment".

The new 2332 for the Wife's car is FI using Megasquirt and part of the FI VS carb decision was the ability to handle the new fuels with minimum hassle and maximum flexibility.

The link below takes you to a website that lists gas station in each state that offer ethanol-free gasoline. If enough people patronize these stations because of their ethanol-free gasoline, then the station owners will have an incentive to keep buying that type of fuel.

http://pure-gas.org/

Call me a sucker, I actually looked at the list. Naturally, California isn't listed, cause there ain't none here!

Hey Jake... any plains to make a upright single plenum intake for the type 4s for easyer super swirt installs?? in a beetle

Over a period of months, the ethanol seperates from the gasoline.
Ethanol, being heavier than gasoline, sinks to the bottom of your tank, bottom of carb bowls, etc. Once seperated, it is much more concentrated (100%) than when it was (15%) suspended in gasoline.
This is what really eats most rubber and plastic components over the course of the winter when we aren't typically driving and replenishing our gasoline regularly.

Using the blue STABIL is supposed to keep the ethanol in suspention. Many boat owners have been using it with success.


By the way, in NJ it is illegal for any gas station to sell ethanol free gasoline. The only place you could find it in NJ is at airports. It is illegal to use ethanol laced gasoline in airplanes where sudden fuel problems can have much more serious consequences.

Guess the government feels that it is just another way to rid the highways of old cars.

Barry, single common intake systems work poorly on the TIV with their long runners.. I don't have any plans for any single carbureted arrangements, they kill tunability and efficiency. This is the reason why no Porsche engine except those used for industrial applications and steady state running use these.

The old "Bluebonic Plague" is sitting back on her own wheels with a new gearbox installed ready to accept our purpose built engine that'll be used for fuel testing as well as exhaust system development.

The test equipment is being updated again and will go into the car next week.

Thats the goal for this winter and through the summer of 2011.

The higher ethanol levels are going to be hard on the float material used for both Weber and Dellorto carbs..

Can you coat / dip the floats with teflon. That might do the trick..

I have also been talking with a friend about Nickel coating the carb bowels to futher help prevent the metal corsion. But that still leaves the needle and seat and the diaphram on the accerator pump.

We discussed a solid brass cone verson Of the needle and seat with a O-ring set in a grove. Al the parts would be coated with the nickel coating..

I usally prefer smaler displacement engines for their economy. So I run solex and solex/brosols .. Please keep me posted on your progress And I will use every resourse I can to help you guys beat this ..On the Webers..

I can monify a Acelerator pump kit to make it dismantle.. But I need a good Diaphram material..

We'll beat it... Its just another small challenge.

Partr of my testing will be done with even higher ethanol levels to see how the future will impact our engines.. I'll be testing fuels all the way to E85. We may have to travel 3-400 m iles just to buy the fuel for some of this!

Actually, you guys realize this is turning out to be a disaster for "newer" cars as well?

Brand new cars that are flex-fuel allegedly have no problems with ethanol. But it turns out that cars just 2 or 3 years old that were also thought to be able to accept ethanol are occasionally failing.

Five to ten year old cars running on gasoline 90%/ethanol 10%, which was supposed to be a very safe level, regularly suffer fuel system failures from hoses, injection bits, and oh yeah, let's not forget gasoline tanks. Alot of vehicles use plastic gasoline tanks. Some tanks are attacked by the mix.

What the hell? Fuel that eats your tank? It's almost as if the idea was to guarantee a certain number of automotive casualties across all value levels to either keep repair business in operations, or vehicle replacement (dealerships/makers) in business.

Sound like silly paranoia even as I write it. But as there are no advantages (worse fuel economy, less power, definately chance of damage) except to the corn industry - can't really think of why else this has been allowed. Not just allowed, encouraged, even dictated.

Screw 'em. I'll replace what I need to replace and ride my bicycle if all else fails.

angela

Ditto Angela......

Is sugar based ethanol (brazil) also harmful to internal combustion engines?

Here is another question for Ya, A friend told me this evening that Neopreme is already ethanol safe..

I'm scrugging my shoulders .

It's a gasket and diaphram material. presently avalible..

BUT!! Is it safe and is it being used.. NOW in our carb's?

Quote - It tends to be significantly corrosive to rubber and certain plastics.

In so much as rotting / breaking the rubber down

I have all ready read several articles on the concern that Hybrid cars, especially owners that operate primarily in the electric mode, may also fall victim.

As stated above, Ethanol attracts water. If that fuel sits in your gas tank unused for too long, it will be water laden and screw up the injectors, et all. Just about then, your hybrid will run out of electricity in the middle of nowhere on a Sunday night . . . .

Boaters have used cooking alcohol (ethanol) for decades to regularly treat their gas tanks. Ethanol would attract the water from the tank bottoms, re-mix it with the regular gas, and allow it to burn off. That only works for small quantities of water, so regular attention to ritual is required.

Umm, does anyone remember drygas? Isn't that ethanol, at least the good brands were anyway.

Angela and Leon,

"Screw 'em. I'll replace what I need to replace and ride my bicycle if all else fails."

I've learned that motorized trikes are cooler than bikes, although no one knows it yet.

I've already made my switch ;-)

I here ya Michael ! But I'd rather ride in Da speedster.. The big riggs here will run over a bike in a blink..

In Alberta, Canada we have been able to by 5 to 10% ethanol fuel for decades. I used it in my 89 Golf: trying to help the envirinment. Well, It cost me a few clams. Seems my exhaust system corroded every 3 years. The guys at the muffler shop were sending me Christmas cards! %( Oy the Madness

Madness is now the way of life in the USA. Another effect of the stuff is water formation. Exhaust components are now stainless steel. Your fuel tank rusty yet?

My tank is plastic. It has the standard fuel-cell foam in it, and I figure the first signs I'll have would be the deterioration of that foam. No problems yet, and the filter is clean.
No problems at all.

My Tank was coated with that Eastwood tank sealer.. Now I'm even worried about that.

But I have been experimenting with coated samples of the stuff in glass jars of the new blend it been 3 days. I'll let YA Know Saterday.. If it's Ok that might also work on floats..