The split back seat I believe is 1960 onward, the 59 coupe had a full back seat and the jump seats were one solid piece that folded down and you then had a parcel shelf a la vw bug. sacrilege comparison 
I agree with you guys, if you can buy a used car first and get your feet wet you can build your want list.
El Guapo has a great formula for simplicity but then it also depends where you live and the terrain you drive on. Then you need to factor what PITNAL, (what pain the neck and lower) you want or rather can live or not live with.
The whole A/Cooled to Subie, more or less turn key, carbs no carb etc etc.
The lighter the car the less horsepower needed or the more reasonable cost horsepower will propel you like a motorcycle aka, Phil's spyder. (beauty Phil)
Or, IM 6 cylinders can scare you as well on the other end of heavy but 350hp or muscle. Or other Subie variants with turbo.
Possibly the biggest challenge is not being able to take a ride in a car with features you might like without jumping in and building it yourself first or flying all over the country to see the car(s).
In any case, it is all choice, and the greatest thing about the madness is that it might keep you engulfed for many years, and burn a lot of greenbacks if your trying to get it perfect but there is room for all kinds of equations and all kinds of budgets and all those cars make us all smile or at least all their owners. So go for it.
550 Phil posted:I would like to make a comment about the IRS/swing axle debate. I'm not going to argue that swing axle is better than IRS. But everything has to be taken in context. My current car is a 1400 lb mid engine car with front VW torsion bar suspension and rear swing axle. My previous car was a 2000+ rear engine car with front Porsche 914 torsion bar suspension and rear IRS. My current car would run circles around my previous car. If I tried to drive my IM 356 D half as hard as I drive my spyder I'd be looking at where I've been real fast. Ask me how I know. Just saying.
And to tell you the truth there's not that many of us that would challenged our rear suspension enough to switch ends. If I were buying an authentic looking 356A speedster or coupe I would get a pan based, front VW torsion bar, rear swing axle Vintage Motorcar. The whole key is keeping it light. Go outlaw. No bumpers, AC, stereo etc. Get the aluminum wide 5s. Just my 2 cents. But its really all about weight and balance.
My older IM has a '67 swing axle rear end and only once have I experienced that nasty feeling in the rear end that some of you more experienced drivers know the name of. I was driving alone on a nice sunny day a year or so ago up in the Gatineau Parkway nearby. I came around a left hand corner at maybe 40-45 mph and encountered a couple of smooth "whoop de doos " in the pavement where it was like riding over a couple of smooth waves in the ocean while in a left turn at moderate speed. I didn't get any air but got a bit light and I experienced some "wiggling" / "wobbling " in the rear that I had never seen before and don't want to see again. I didn't dare brake but just steered the best I could. I was near the edge of out of control just briefly and felt a bit embarrassed to myself. Glad no one was around to see it. The place is full of hard core bicyclists too and I wound up taking more than my share of the road. A young couple died in a one car accident up there recently at night. I looked at the area of my event on the way back down and you really cannot see it in time to make an adjustment. I'm guessing a vehicle with modern suspension would have little problem.
David Stroud posted:...only once have I experienced that nasty feeling in the rear end that some of you more experienced drivers know the name of...
I think it's called 'pucker factor'
Rustytubs sells the correct rear seat section for $895 that you can cut and paste (fiberglass) in -
http://www.rustytubs.com/porsc...convertible-550.html
I don't want to argue with Phil but it's worth mentioning, especially for Frank, that the 550 is a different design than the Speedster. The mid engine helps some, by transferring weight forward and lessening the pendulum effect both on oversteering and unweighting or "jacking." But the big difference is the length of the torsion arms/spring plates. The Spyder's are longer, and that helps dampen the tendency to "jack."
They still do it (just ask Danny) but not as readily.
Now back to your regularly-scheduled detail-rich thread.
I guess that brings a whole different conotation to being jacked up
The IRS design is a safety and performance improvement from the older swing axle configuration, especially in a rear-engine configuration. IRS, among other improvements, effectively lowers the center of gravity (CG) of the rear by a few inches, and that lowering results in vastly improved cornering, with much less tendency to "jack" or tuck under.
When you change platforms to a Spyder with lighter weight, mid engine configuration, and differing wheel base, the difference in in performance with IRS vs. swing is diminished, but not eliminated.
If roads had no curves, swing axle would be preferred for its simplicity and strength. However, for our street cars, increased safety and performance make IRS a no-brainer.
Of course, the subject is car stuff, so the majority opinion has little effect on the minority, who will go to the mat in defense of their view. Kind of like politics, eh?
I’ve had 3 of these cars, 2 IRS and 1 swing-axle.
There’s definitely a difference.
Alan Merklin posted:All the expense to make these modifications, when done you're wallet has been drastically lightened and you still have, a reproduction speedster that will only fool a general audience. IMHO do what appeals to your eyes and if it's not P' correct so be it. That's why I like doing flared and super wide body speedsters, I get to do what ever pops into my cob webbed brain and it works... Enjoy the ride ~
True on most accounts, unless you have the ability to do the modifications yourself, or are willing to learn. As my car stands now, with all the mods, extras's and boxes of spare parts and the engine swop, I'm in it for R92 000 or $7200 USD. I've done my sums and I have about another R20 000 or $1600 left to put into it. My materials cost basically the same as if I were to buy them in the US. The labour is where I'm saving.
To put it into perspective a well sorted speedster in South Africa is about $20 000 and that has everything, but will still pail in comparison to the vert D that's currently on E-bay. The quality and fit and finish locally, just isn't there. Manny, myself and firebird are changing that.
I don't deny for one second that the first thing that someone will do when they see my car up close , is to tap the body..........damn I hate that.
Stan Galat posted:I’ve had 3 of these cars, 2 IRS and 1 swing-axle.
There’s definitely a difference.
I would love to have IRS.......
WOLFGANG posted:Rustytubs sells the correct rear seat section for $895 that you can cut and paste (fiberglass) in -
http://www.rustytubs.com/porsc...convertible-550.html
That is an arse rapez of note. For the amount of work needed to still get it in there, I can see how you guys are reluctant to do this mod if they're selling it for that price.
Our local guy says it's $80 in material and he adds on another 1/3 for labour.
You still have to cut down the rear cross support by at least 2 inches to get the seat low enough and (while not necessary), it makes the job easier, WAY EASIER, if the body is off the pan and upside down.
I would imagine that the chance of being able to retrofit that to a tube-framed car is pretty close to nil.
flatfourfan posted:Stan Galat posted:I’ve had 3 of these cars, 2 IRS and 1 swing-axle.
There’s definitely a difference.
I would love to have IRS.......
The trailing arm pivot mounts are available-
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...uctCode=ACC-C10-4336
just weld them to the pan and you you're on your way. Narrow the trailing arms, find a pair of left side type 3 automatic axles (they're 1" shorter than the rights), have some 5 1/2 or 6" wheels widened 1" to the inside and with 205's that thing will be badass!
About the swing/IRS debate,: First, I'm talking about swing axles. The weight distribution is different between Speedsters and Spyders, which we all know. Speedsters have a larger rear weight bias and hence, a lower limit to when the rear-end pendulum effect comes into play. Spyders have a longer trailing arm, but the axle is the same length. You have way less toe change with suspension movement. Camber change is the same, but jacking effect is less, due to less mass on the rear axle. Plus, Vintage Spyders have less wheel travel on the back, further limiting camber change.
Bottom line, you get more of a warning before physics takes over and recovery is possible with a Speedster.
Spyders have a better balance and a higher limit to losing rear-end traction. However, once that limit is reached, the difference between going and gone is very small.
I really don't have a whole lot of knowledge when it comes to IRS rears, all I know is they are obviously better.
Carry on, lads.
A Spyder is a different animal than a Speedster. The weight, balance, and suspension layout all work to mask some (most) of the limitations of a swing-arm in a Spyder. We will never know how much better an IRS Spyder would be, because nobody makes one. That is a crying shame, because I believe a lightweight, IRS Spyder with around 200-250 hp would be the equal of cars costing many, many, many times as much.
For the vast bulk of how Speedsters are generally used (sunny days, good roads, <6/10 stress), a swing-axle is probably fine. Until it isn’t. A few years ago, we had a forum member roll over and die in an accident a lot of people blamed on snap-oversteer. He was in California, and the weather was clear, sunny, and dry.
The limits of a swing-axle are out there a bit past “just cruising”, but not much beyond “spirited” driving on a smooth road. In 1969 (50 years ago), VW felt like they needed IRS in a freaking Beetle, for crying out loud.
When push comes to shove, if you want to be able to run with the Spyders (or most anything else designed in the past 60 years) in a Speedster, you need IRS.
Period.
Boy am I learning a lot. Thank you. So, as it pertains to my potential/eventual purchase of a Speedster IM is the only IRS vehicle currently being sold with the possibility in a year or two Beck having IRS. Is this correct?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think JPS and Vintage Motorcars will do IRS but only on a pan. They would both have front VW torsion beam. IM only does space frame with IRS and will do front VW torsion beam, 914 or 911.
I'm thinking Stan's comment should probably be one of those dashboard warning labels you see plastered all over new cars today:
If you're lucky, with swing axles, you have one of those 'Aha' moments early on, before you do something really stupid. Mine came a few months into ownership, on my way to Cars and Coffee one fine morning.
About a mile from the event, I pulled up to a light next to a newish Lotus. At the green, he took off and I, well, you know, sort of gave chase. A short time later, we were both exceeding the posted speed limit to some degree.
Suddenly, we were at our destination, at a narrow, S-shaped entrance. We slowed, but were maybe still a bit quicker than the highway designers had intended for that entrance. The Lotus squirted through uneventfully. Quick right, quick left, and through.
Me, not so much.
I remember wide-eyed pedestrians watching me go sideways to the left as I hit the first half of the curve. Somehow, I caught it with the steering , straightened out, and thought all was good. But then, I was sideways to the right, approaching the second bend and more wide-eyed pedestrians. Again, God and some counter steering saved the day, but only just. In just a few seconds, I had become 'that assh*le' that everyone always rolls their eyes over.
Since then, I treat the little beasty with respect. I've learned a lot more about just where the excitement begins in a corner and try to stay short of that. I've adjusted tire pressures, watch for reverse camber and bad surfaces, and generally pay attention. There is a little 'squirrelly' warning, but it comes on pretty quick and you'd better be ready.
I could pour money into making the handling more like a modern car, but for me that's not what this car is all about. Once you learn the game, it's a kick driving it at its limits but you need to understand just what you've got - a rolling relic. For better or worse, this is what it was like back in the day.
And I'm perfectly OK with that.
Attachments
I know this may be hard to believe. I've owned 3 spyders. I have driven them all aggressively. I've been on the track many times. I've never experienced anything other than predictable oversteer. The 2 LSD cars are actually tougher to drive than the one I had without an LSD. The one without the LSD was much more forgiving I guess because the inner tire was always planted. The previous LSD car I had and the current one are faster that the car without LSD. And you have to pay a lot more attention trying to get the best exit speed out of that corner but I always thought that they were very communicable and predictable and (knock on wood) I've never had a spyder sideways. Had my IM sideways the first time I tried to duplicate spyder antics in the mountains.
Obviously I'm a big Vintage Motorcar fan. My car is a great example of the quality that can come from Hawaiian Gardens. I just received a text from Greg Leach. He is currently doing speedsters and 356A Coupes with swing axle or IRS. Obviously these are pan cars. They can be had with Type 1, Type 4 or Suby engines. I know its a pan car with front VW torsion beam suspension but a 230hp Suby 356 with IRS would still be pretty sweet. I've owned an IM. Greg's quality, fit and finish is very close. And much more reasonably priced.
Now that your back to wearing a spydie suit, your back to driving close to the edge. ...
It is good to hear that there is another builder that is coming up with great skills and good offerings.
ALB posted:flatfourfan posted:Stan Galat posted:I’ve had 3 of these cars, 2 IRS and 1 swing-axle.
There’s definitely a difference.
I would love to have IRS.......
The trailing arm pivot mounts are available-
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...uctCode=ACC-C10-4336
just weld them to the pan and you you're on your way. Narrow the trailing arms, find a pair of left side type 3 automatic axles (they're 1" shorter than the rights), have some 5 1/2 or 6" wheels widened 1" to the inside and with 205's that thing will be badass!
lol.......so many "i wish" when I was reading that comment.
IRS beetles, type 3's are pretty much impossible to find in South Africa. The mounts wouldn't be hard to fab, but all the arms and parts would have to be early porsche and then I'd be looking at $5000 plus before I've even thought about trying to find a tranny.
550 Phil posted:I know this may be hard to believe. I've owned 3 spyders. I have driven them all aggressively. I've been on the track many times. I've never experienced anything other than predictable oversteer. The 2 LSD cars are actually tougher to drive than the one I had without an LSD. The one without the LSD was much more forgiving I guess because the inner tire was always planted. The previous LSD car I had and the current one are faster that the car without LSD. And you have to pay a lot more attention trying to get the best exit speed out of that corner but I always thought that they were very communicable and predictable and (knock on wood) I've never had a spyder sideways. Had my IM sideways the first time I tried to duplicate spyder antics in the mountains.
Phil, you know I'm on my second Spyder. I've had my Spyder sideways on many occasions. The oversteer is predictable, until that one time when it isn't. I knew that first car like the back of my hand. It truly was a part of me when I was driving it. I could predictably drift that car in second gear around autocross courses.
Lenny and I were on a Carlisle cruise, I think it may have been the five covered bridges tour. I was just in front of Lenny. I went over a sharp rise that had a slight left turn over the hump. The road dropped off very slightly over the hump and the rear stepped out at around 50-55 mph. A VERY quick counter steer to the right, then the rear end cam e back in line. I looked in the mirror and watched Lenny do the EXACT SAME THING. None of the Speedsters did this.
Right time, right place, right speed, it CAN happen and will happen. It's a matter of time, especially if you're driving anywhere close to the limit. That limit was pretty high, but once exceeded, impossible to catch. And there isn't any warning.
I completely agree with Greg Leach's attention to detail, quality, and fit/finish. I'm very pleased with mine. The first car was great, the second one 14 years later is sublime.
Yup Danny. My time will likely come. I think the suspension instability problems are completely about road conditions. Out of level, bumps etc. All of my previous spyder driving was done in central FL where the roads were completely flat. And a few trips to the track. My car is now in the mountains of Virginia. Got a feeling these roads will introduce me to the perils of swing axle. Still safer than going fast with my IRS IM.
"Still safer than going fast with my IRS IM."
Phil. We'll have to put that to the test in the Smokies... :-)
Looking forward to being there.
Off to Mosport next week for a track day, and a chance to really drive my car. My son is joining me in his older BMW that he has somewhat tricked out, so should be a lot of fun.
Bob. Your car is a completely different animal from my old car. All that meat you have on the back makes up for a lot of rear engine challenges. I'm thinking I can probably still keep up with you.
Have fun with your son at the track. Great bonding experience. One of the most fun I ever had was going to a go kart track with my boys when they were young. My oldest son beat me every time having never driven a motorized vehicle. Those video games must be good.
Yeah, I know - completely different set up on my car. Just havin' some fun (and you can probably outrun me).
My son can drive circles around me, too. He learned to drive on our old Volvos, plus a couple of small dirt bikes. Now that he lives five hours away, any chance to see him is a bonus.
Plus Phil's car had that Audi engine, which moved the CG up and back. Always wondered what that did to the balance.
Yup. Upright cast iron straight 4. Like one anvil staked on top of another. Not good.
Good thing Henry and others discovered Subarus, for those wanting a water cooled Speedster. That flat four just fits back in there as if it was meant to be.
Yes and the Subys don't require the crazy CV joint angles resulting in boot failure like in my old car.
The high center of gravity in the IM's with Audi 1.8T or the 2.0L were not my favourite when I looked at building one in 2009. I was later to be told the issues with the universals and I always found it strange that some of the nicest ones ended up on the market soon after their build.
As most of you know my car is full subie and there are and have been no issues with CV joints at all and the car runs really well. A Normally aspirated 2.5L with stock ECU at 180ish hp makes it so I won't win any races off the line but it does move quite nicely.
I could always have the cam changed and add a different ECU for 235hp ... madness, yes madness and it continues.
I had asked Henry a few years back at Carlisle while looking at an Audi powered IM he had there, he said because of the increased angle, that he used a specific CV joint but I am not sure what he said it was from....may be Porsche ?
Yes I believe they were from the turbo 911 if I remember right @DaleBates could tell us for sure. In any case it still brought the CG too high.
Mine were type 4 meaning they were from a VW 411 or bus. Stronger than a bug but not as strong as a 911. All of these CV joint configurations have maximal angles allowable. The least for the bug and the most for 911. Problem isn't the joints themselves. As long as they don't exceed the maximum allowable angle they are fine. Henry knew this. The problem is the boots wear out much faster at these exaggerated angles. Sand rail guys also know about these angles and have developed larger CV boots. I had bought some sand rail boots but sold my car before the latest boots sprung a leak.
That's why the best set up is an air cooled car or a suby. Even bug CV joints and axles can be used because of where the tranny is mounted resulting in small CV joint angles. Stick with air cooled or suby.
Lot of good info here guys, thanks.
So, Mr. 428Street.......
Are You getting information overload yet? 
ALB posted:flatfourfan posted:Stan Galat posted:I’ve had 3 of these cars, 2 IRS and 1 swing-axle.
There’s definitely a difference.
I would love to have IRS.......
The trailing arm pivot mounts are available-
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...uctCode=ACC-C10-4336
just weld them to the pan and you you're on your way. Narrow the trailing arms, find a pair of left side type 3 automatic axles (they're 1" shorter than the rights), have some 5 1/2 or 6" wheels widened 1" to the inside and with 205's that thing will be badass!
I've made a mistake here; the widened (to the inside) wheel/tire combo will fit on stock trailing arms and type 1 brakes; you only have to narrow them if you got to type 3 brakes or discs...
Lane Anderson posted:Plus Phil's car had that Audi engine, which moved the CG up and back. Always wondered what that did to the balance.
To notice the differences between the inline 4 and the flat 4, you have to be driving it on the ragged edge. To a person driving one in traffic and add to the mix a bit of spirited driving with a weekend cruiser, you’d be hard pushed to notice the difference.
The C of G will always be there and yes the inline 4 sits higher, but I have had a 1.6 AC flat four, a 2.0 AC type 4 flat four and now an inline 4 2.0 8v VW WC motor all in the same chassis and set-up and honestly, with daily driving, you won’t notice the difference. Do some basic suspension mods (squat bars, camber compensator, properly sorted shocks) and you won’t believe that it’s the same car when it comes to really pushing it. Move the battery up front and play around with the weight distribution and Robert's your mothers brother.
It’s a shame that the scene has shunned the inline 4 and decided that a flat 4 is the only way to go in order to stay original to the ideals of a speedster. I think that cars running an inline 4 instead of a flat 4 will always carry a stigma and thus a cheaper price when it comes to sell them, which is a shame.
That D currently on Ebay is one properly sorted car and a beautiful example and anyone thinking that it’s less of a car than a Scooby 4 based car needs their head examined.