Skip to main content

My head is spinning with info for sure but when this thread dies down or when I have time I'm going to summarize the thread on my own and see what questions I have for the group.  I do love this stuff.  My problem is I have no point of reference because I don't have a car, never sat in one, never drove in one so the suspension and engine talks although informative are hard to make concrete.  This will all come with time.  And as always there is differing opinion even on rear suspension for example.  Sounds like you can make either happen and perform well.  IRS does seem to be the winner if your car can be fitted with that type of suspension.

Like I've mention in the past I am not a "speed" guy and the times I would be driving on crazy S turns or track type driving would be minimal.  It also seems like many guys have had numerous cars which is telling to me.

This current engine debate is of main interest and I have to re-read it to fully understand.  I'm also torn between how much non-orignal I want to make my fake car .  I was/am going towards the suby engine because of reliability, I prefer not to be tinkering all the time with the older VW engine, and I have zero experience with either to be honest but now I am going back and forth between the suby and VW engine. 

This could all change.

That car on ebay was my car for 3.5 years.  It is a great car.  It is a great cruiser with a bullet proof engine.  Only real limitations to the car were relative lack of power, 125hp before I bumped that one to about 140-145hp.  It shredded CV boots.  Those are pricey replacements.  Not the boot, the labor if you can't do it your self.  But I really think the sand rail boots will solve the problem.

Last edited by 550 Phil

"My problem is I have no point of reference because I don't have a car, never sat in one, never drove in one..."

One of your first tasks should be to remedy that.  I'm sure there are enough folks within a couple of hours drive that would be happy to help you with taking care of this.  Once you've done so you should be able to process the info being provided to you a whole lot better.

Agree Lane and it will happen for sure.  This is a journey.  If possible, if any has pictures of the two suspensions so I can "see" the difference or pics of engines you'all have before you put them in your cars that would be great.  I'd love to have a german (period) correct engine with similar horse power to a suby as an ideal but pretty sure it doesn't exist without major mods.  This is a research point or when I know more asking more specific and knowledge questions.  Where the VW and Speedster engines interchangeable back in the 50's & 60's or was the speedster engine something very specific to the speedster?

When building the engine for my Cobra I was told that the higher the HP I wanted the more money and the more less care free the engine will be.  Again, I'm not an engine builder or mechanic.  I can do some stuff but it's not something I have been doing since I was 18 or anything.  I went with a mild build engine with 400 HP and that was 10 years ago.  Up until a couple of weeks ago and determining I have to rebuild the carb probably from sitting the engine has run flawlessly.  

A comparison for starters- 

Swing vs IRS

The very earliest 356 engines used (36hp) VW cases but by about 1952? '54? (not sure exactly) Porsche was casting their own 3 piece cases. A VW engine will bolt right up to a 356 trans with only some details (flywheel, clutch, sheet metal to seal the sides and over the exhaust off from the outside and ??) to make it fully functional. A used complete pushrod 356 engine will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-$10,000, another $5,000 (or so) to have rebuilt with any hotrodding being extra. They come in a few displacements- 1300, 1500 and (I believe) 1600 and flavors- 60, 75 and 90 hp, and big bore piston/cylinder kits will take it as far as 1720 cc's. While a 140-160 hp 2 liter (or larger) VW is a wonderful street engine because peak power happens relatively low (5500- 6,000 rpm), got a great torque curve for around town driving, can live a long life and it only requires relatively little maintenance (by VW standards), 140 hp in a 1720 cc 356 will be a completely different animal, high strung with a 7,000 (or more) redline, street manners that suck in comparison, shorter life and higher maintenance.

Wilhoit Restorations strokes the 74mm crankshaft to 77mm and their 2002(?) cc engine makes similar power to a VW 2 liter, but at much higher cost. 

Hope this helps. Al

Water cooled will be more reliable and you can get a reliable 230 hp without too much fuss or cash.  If you go for a type 1 VW air cooled engine as you exceed about 160 hp your costs go way up and reliability goes way down.  If you go with type 4 air cooled you can get a pretty reliable engine above 160 hp.  But type 4 will be the most expensive.  And almost all air cooled engines will be carburetor and almost all water cooled engines will be fuel injected.  My elementary understanding.  Many on this site can give you a much more technical and in depth discussion.  But be careful climbing into the rabbit hole.  It can get pretty deep around here.

Last edited by 550 Phil

All 356s (coupes, cabriolets, speedsters, “D”s, roadsters) from the mid-50s until the advent of the 911 used a variation of the same Porsche air-cooled flat-4 engine (with the exception of the Furmann 4-cam GS/GT). 912s from 1965-1969 also used a variation of this engine.

The early Porsche engine shared the basic architecture (and some bits and pieces) with the VW Type-1, but they are just enough different that most of the internals are not interchangeable. The cases are different, the heads are different, the crankshafts are different, etc. As Al said— the transmissions are pretty easily interchangeable (adapter plates are not required).

VW and Porsche developed an engine jointly in the late 60s for manufacture and use in the Porsche 914 and VW Bus. This engine was called the Type-4. It also shares the basic architecture with the early Porsche 4, and the VW Type-1, but is its own animal. Again, there are a few bits that are interchangeable, but the cases, heads, and internals are all different. Type-4s are bigger and more rugged than either other air-cooled Flat-4. They are also quite expensive. Again, no adapter plate is required for these engines.

Any of these engines can have EFI and electronics spark— but as Phil said, the vast majority of them have carburetors and distributors. It’s worth noting that there is no “off-the-shelf”, readily available electronic package for purchase for a high-performance air-cooled flat-4. Mexican Beetles had EFI and electronic spark, but they were by no means a high-performance engine. Guys who go down this road put together their own packages, getting throttle bodies from here, logic modules from there, etc. It’s super-cool, but a hobby within a hobby, and probably fun for about 5% of prospective market.

On the air-cooled side, the old 356 engines are becoming horrifically expensive, and don’t offer much more than a Type-1– I’d leave these for guys with original cars who put a lot of value having a “correct” engine. The Type-4 is a highly desirable engine, and if you have deep pockets it is clearly superior to either of the other two options, but it’s not hard to spend $20,000 on a properly modified Type-4. In the V8 world, you can get close to 1000 hp for that kind of money.

... which leaves the Type-1 as the air cooled engine that most people choose. They take a lot of maintenance, they are somewhat fragile, but they are erector-set of the automotive world. They can be configured in almost any arrangement from a 60 hp 1600 to a 2332 making over 200 hp. There are lots of aftermarket companies casting many variations of heads, several variations of cases, etc.  camshaft choices, lifter choices, really everything – there are several companies making all of it. It’s not like speed parts for American V-8’s, but it’s close.

It’s worth noting that any VW or Porsche air cooled flat-four will bolt up to any VW or Porsche air cooled transaxle, including the 901 & 915 Porsche 5-speeds. A G50 Porsche would also probably bolt up, but it’s enormous and heavy.  There will need to be changes to some of the flywheels and some of the clutches, but no adapters will be required.

Subaru is a whole ‘nuther world. There are shops by the bazillion getting freaky amounts of power out of turbo engines. There is significantly less aftermarket support for normally aspirated engines, but a stock EJ25 is robust enough that (even unmodified) it makes as much power as a pretty heavily modified Type-1. Outfront has a high performance NA EJ25. There are one or two guys running a turbo WRX engine in their cars, but the work involved to make this an option is not for the faint of heart. Anything is possible, given enough money.

Nothing bolts up with this engine. The choices are to either run the Subaru transaxle with a reverse ring/pinon, or use an adapter plate with a VW or Porsche transaxle. Of course, putting a water-cooled engine in what was originally an air-cooled vehicle adds a significant amount of complexity. But those who have done it feel that the increase in longevity and ease-of-use is worth the effort.

There also those who believe that going in this direction alters the essence of the car to the extent that it becomes something else altogether... but those people are self-confessed retro-grouches and generally have a co-dependent love/hate relationship with their engines. They often have plenty of time to contemplate the relative merits and shortcomings of their chosen platform, as they sit beside the road waiting for a flatbed. These people are outliers and social misfits, generally derided as gearheads in high school and afterward. They are the rugged individualists who scoff at modernity, with all it’s seamless capability. 

That’s the lay of the land, as the hobby presently is configured. These are my opinions, not necessarily the opinions of staff or management. Your mileage may vary. 

 

Last edited by Stan Galat
Good summary. IMHO, the most reasonable routes are a moderate type I or a NA EJ25.

Having has a 2054 145hp type 1 & a 2.5L 175hp EJ253, I prefer the latter.

They both have the flat four sound.

On the type I I had a A1 sidewinder and on the Suby I have twin custom exhaust into glass packs.

The Suby is just as loud, if not louder on acceleration, but is much quieter at idle and cruise.

The Suby torque is awesome & that’s where I get my jollies around town.

>
>

Stan's mostly right.....and he gets many points for excellent writing and mechanical skills. There are ways to "dumb down" a Soob conversion though, so I don't quite give in to his comment that it adds a significant amount of complexity. Install an adapter plate to mount the engine and maybe a custom rear engine mount if you think it needs one, put a rad up front, figure a way to get spark and then air/fuel combo to the engine and you're done. 

You can pay someone to do the conversion or do it yourself. I make no representation that my example is up to the scrutiny of a pro build, but it is home doable and seems to run ok, has lots of miles on it and didn't cost that much either. 

Well, that was interesting ...

For me a turbo unit while somewhat more complex is just not appealing.  Turbo lag and the lauch switch effect. Give me N/Aspirated, or as they say here Atmosphère (french) 

Since I have hooked up with a Racing Subie company on this northern side that essentially does what Outback does for you guys in the USofA you could get a N/A or non turbo unit that does 235hp with ease and at a discount Funny money that we have.  

David's approach gets you there for a lot less green in my opinion and is certainly an option and a stellar and unique approach. 

My 230 hp subaru EJ25 cost $9200.  New short block with ported rebuilt heads, slightly more radical cams and Stinger ECU.  You can get nice low mileage 165 hp EJ25 for $6500.  Outfront motorsports is where I got mine.

Type 4 with 165 hp will cost double the $6500 and maybe more.  Check with Fat Performance.

How much is a CB Performance 165 hp 2332 cc Type 1?  $10,000?

Obviously if you don't have a need for speed prices will be less.

 

Ray, I have Turbo lag in my  behemoth Jag XF but you don't feel it in my 2400 pound Intermeccanica.  As a mater a fact I was able to drive a lot of the back roads on my weekend road rally in 5th gear.  There is gobs of torque in my car and it has a smooth swoosh of power (ask Danny P).   I opted for a less powerful Legacy GT Turbo engine over a WRX specifically as to not have that delay and big rush of power.  I still love N/A though and will keep my new Alfa Romeo project old school with dual carbs to boot.  Thankfully Stan and Alan Merklin are on my speed dial.  My build is very complex (as Stan pointed out) and it's not for everybody.  

Money.

The Subaru engine is cheap. You can find a used one under $1,000 that will run nice. In the car it's already in.

To make it go in a Speedster do the oil-air separator, the cam belt, the water pump, the oil pan and oil pump. Another $1,000 or maybe $1500. So budget $2500 for an engine. But.

To make it actually work in the car: KEP Adapter ($500+), clutch ($100), fuel pump &tank mods ($250), radiator ($200), exhaust and water piping ($600), wiring and ECU ($1500-$2000). So figure $3,500 in parts plus some small amounts of labor. Your budget Subaru, normally-aspirated, bone stock (140-165hp at 6000-6500 redline which, pace Phil, is actually probably too much juice in this package) is now in the $6,000 neighborhood, before contingencies.*

This is coincidentally what you could expect to pay for a lightly-used 145-horse 2110 cc Type 1 VW engine built by CB Performance or one of the three or four other builders who people here trust. Dudes sometimes throw them away with 2800 miles on them in order to swap Subies into their cars.+

The Type 1 will bolt right up in a half hour and stink, of course, unless you further equip it with an FI system which can easily cost another $3,000. (Some assembly required). 

*In my experience contingencies are inevitable and can be dear in time and treasure: everything from many $5 fittings and bleeder valves for the cooling system to oops I thought the head gasket on this engine was good but nope, lose one season, go directly to the machine shop, do not pass Go, do not even think about saving that $600 you thought you'd saved by not decking the heads and replacing the damn head gaskets before you installed it. 

+That was my experience last year, when I scored for my Spyder a decade-old, Jake Raby-built, 120-horse 1915 with a claimed 1200 miles from Carey at Beck/Special Edition. The engine was built for a Beck Speedster back in the day, and now Carey was replacing it with a Suby. Compared to a brand-new CB Performance turn-key engine it was a good deal.

This hobby stopped being cheap just about the time I got into it.

Phil's figures have been pretty close to spot-on regarding cost, etc. With a Type-1, the first 150 hp come in a linear relationship with money spent. After 170 hp or so the bell-curve goes pretty much straight up, so that the money spent is probably the square or cube of the increase in power.

Fast, cheap, reliable: you can pick any two.

 

On the matter of stink.

All other technical advantages and disadvantages between the Type 1 and Subie notwithstanding, if your wife really doesn't love the smell of unburned hydrocarbons in the morning, it's pretty much game over for an aircooled flat four.

When I got my Speedster, it had been 15 years or so since I'd had an old school car in the garage, and I'd forgotten just what that smell was like. My eyes watered half with nostalgia, half with the fumes.

If you were born after 1970 or so, you may never have smelled that and are probably more sensitive to it than those of us with permanently scarred nasal passages. To keep the smell out of the house as much as possible, I push the car out of the garage and roll down the garage door before starting. After backing in upon returning, I leave the door half open for a few hours to let the fumes dissipate. It's all part of the, uh, charm of the old school car.

On a closely related note, though, I have noticed my wife inventing excuses for not joining me in certain things. Wives understand what fragile egos we have and will hardly ever just come flat out and say, "That's a ridiculous car and I won't be caught dead in it." We're often told their hair will get mussed or they had the afternoon set aside for alphabetizing their recipe files.

For some reason, though, women seem to like Speedsters a lot more than Cobras. The census bureau has no hard figures to support this, but if you've ever driven a Speedster to Cars and Coffee, you'll know that it's true.

Before making up your mind on which engine is best, you may want to research this crucial matter on your own.

 

550 Phil posted:

My 230 hp subaru EJ25 cost $9200.  New short block with ported rebuilt heads, slightly more radical cams and Stinger ECU.  You can get nice low mileage 165 hp EJ25 for $6500.  Outfront motorsports is where I got mine.

Type 4 with 165 hp will cost double the $6500 and maybe more.  Check with Fat Performance.

How much is a CB Performance 165 hp 2332 cc Type 1?  $10,000?

Obviously if you don't have a need for speed prices will be less.

 

Nice numbers...thanks, Phil..   Installed or supplied with your numbers ? If not , what was full cost  installed running ?

Stan Galat posted:
550 Phil posted:

Thank you Alice (in Wonderland) for that nice summary.

Want to know how bad it is? I did this on my phone. 

Stan it was appreciated.....I walked into work 30 minutes before anyone else, unpacked my bacon and eggs and toast, popped my pepsi and read through your post. . Today is going to be a good day. 

On a side note. Regardless of what WC engine you're opting for, I think that the future of the speedsters lies with the WC EFi engines in general. When I started tinkering around with getting a full-sized radiator stealth mounted in the nose of a speedster, there was only a few guys who had done the job to my satisfaction and even then in many cases it looked unfinished, or they sold the car. Ricola Racing in the UK was a HUGE input and I love the work that he does. 

As type one parts get more expensive and Efi WC engines drop in price, it'll be a natural progression to move to an option that is cheaper, more reliable and makes more power than a type 1. 

Also......on a serious note. suspension, brakes and safety have to go hand in hand with a good engine. 120hp for me is actually more than enough and allows me to keep the car pretty much stock. I've been in a 200hp speedster and it made me nervous, because the rest of the car was stock. 

I know it was mentioned many times before, but both you AND your wife need to drive a number of Speedsters. You may find that even after solving the “stink” debate and going with a WC engine, she may still not want to ride with you. The Speedster seats are not the most comfortable. There are ways around this, but the seats have their limitations. Then there’s the ride. These cars make sure you feel EVERY bump in the road, big or small. You’ll find this written about heavily on this forum. 

I don’t recall the wind situation in the Cobra, perhaps the higher windscreen shoves the air more less out of the cabin. But in the Speedster, the wind hits your face from all angles. Yes, you can add Troy’s Cruzin’ windows, or the clamp on deflectors to mitigate this. 

What I’m getting at though is that both you and your wife really need to drive a number of them. All your engine research and questions may be a mute point. You may find that the 1600 is perfect for your driving habits, and if that’s true, the cost will go way down and reliability goes up. 

@MusbJim can weigh in. He’s put over 100,000mi on his Type I engines, with no issue. 

Then there’s  the question on how often are you going to drive your Speedster, and how many miles a year?  Last year I put 3600mi on mine. Without one single issue on my 1915cc Type I.  But I never push my car hard. I cruise on back roads. On highways, I cruise between 75-85mph with no issue. But I do watch weather reports when going out. I do not drive my car when temps are in the 90s. I don’t think my engine will like that heat, and I certainly don’t like baking in the sun either. 

But I’m one of those old curmudgeons at heart. I absolutely love the sound of the air cooled engine. It’s better than any song I can play through the speaker. And I love all the idiosyncrasies about the car: checking weather reports, oil, tire pressure, listening to her crank over and knowing when to push my foot on the gas pedal to fire her up. IMHO, that’s what makes old car ownership fun. Or else I’d buy a new Miata. I’m sure they handle better, are faster, more reliable and have all the creature comforts. 

Good Points there Kevin. 

I actually bought my speedster when my Mrs was 6 months pregnant with my eldest (who is 11 next week) and even then, she hated it, (which is understandable in her condition at the stage). 

I still bought it though......

We had a long cruise in it just before I stripped it down 3 years ago and while she shined up to the car a lot since the first time, she said that it gets way too much attention and people don't stop staring.......I fail to see a down side here.  

ADF59EEA-16EE-48EA-B451-B14326313B38David Stroud posted:
550 Phil posted:

My 230 hp subaru EJ25 cost $9200.  New short block with ported rebuilt heads, slightly more radical cams and Stinger ECU.  You can get nice low mileage 165 hp EJ25 for $6500.  Outfront motorsports is where I got mine.

Type 4 with 165 hp will cost double the $6500 and maybe more.  Check with Fat Performance.

How much is a CB Performance 165 hp 2332 cc Type 1?  $10,000?

Obviously if you don't have a need for speed prices will be less.

 

Nice numbers...thanks, Phil..   Installed or supplied with your numbers ? If not , what was full cost  installed running ?

Dave. That’s the cost of engine dyno’d and running without exhaust. Install included in price of car. 

 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • ADF59EEA-16EE-48EA-B451-B14326313B38
Last edited by 550 Phil

You guys are a funny group!  All good stuff.  Soooooo, we're back to T1 vs. WC.  I am torn because I am purist at heart so wanting to go to the T1 is of interest but the devil keeps poking at me and temping me that the WC engine is the way to go.  Reading through the responses seems to be the T1 is reliable and "close" to the original engine (vs a WC suby).  As most have mentioned I need to drive in a couple before making decisions.  

My AC engine gave me few issues, but what I didn’t like was the extended warm up. Most of my driving is around town and by the time the car was warmed up and running right, I was there.

There’s a reason cars have computer control & electronic fuel injection.

The romance with authentic things, like drum brakes, cable activated clutches, sloppy shifters, no heat, wimpy horn (you need a loud horn), dual Weber carbs, etc. faded mighty fast for me.

I love the styling, not the 1930’s tech.
>
>

Outfront claims the 230 hp at the crank.  I have not seen the dyno.  My last suby spyder was the stock 165 hp DOHC.  My current car is so much faster than my previous car I'm inclined to believe the numbers.  I can spin both tires in 1st and 2nd with ease.

The only sacrifice I make with the extra hp is, the way the Stinger ECU is set up the car must be warmed up to 150 degrees before driving or it will stall easily.  I don't care.  I like to hear it purr.  Running temp is 180 degrees.  I've never seen it above 190.

Tom Blankinship posted:
My AC engine gave me few issues, but what I didn’t like was the extended warm up. Most of my driving is around town and by the time the car was warmed up and running right, I was there.

There’s a reason cars have computer control & electronic fuel injection.

The romance with authentic things, like drum brakes, cable activated clutches, sloppy shifters, no heat, wimpy horn (you need a loud horn), dual Weber carbs, etc. faded mighty fast for me.

I love the styling, not the 1930’s tech.
>
>

Tom, you summed up where I think my feelings are going...."I love the styling, not the 1930's tech."

I think it varies. I bought mine (a CMC) as a runner/roller that was completed by Vintage in the late 90's.  Since I picked up the car in 2014, I've completely rebuilt the car front to back. Third or 4th motor. Third trans. etc. 

Others have purchased runners from IM, Beck, Vintage and driven them as they were delivered. 

It just varies really. 

 

Add Reply

Post Content
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×