Motor may be fried

Don't know what to say. Bummer...

That sucks Bobby. Keep us in the loop so we can advise you all the way through the process. LOL

That's odd.  Driving it a short distance with a broken belt shouldn't have done any real damage to it.  Did it over heat or was it over heated prior to the belt breaking?

Hopefully, it's not as serious as you think.  Hang in there. 

Do you have a screw in compression tester?  I'd do that first.  Just pull coil wire and do each spark plug and mark down cylinder and reading.  Then I'd remove the valve covers and look at push rods that popped loose or rockers that came loose.  You might see a valve stem that looks weird or doesn't move when you turn engine over with coil wire off.  Hopefully, just something needs tightening.  May the Force be with you.

4 hours waiting for the flat bed.  Got it home.  Drained the oil.  It looked pretty cloudy and dark.  I think I am going to drop the engine, transfer some stuff over to the old 1915 and put that back in so my wife will can at least drive it.  After that, I will start to tear it done and examine it closer.  

Slow down.  Deep breath. 

Compression test? Is the fan hitting something? What caused the belt failure? What do you mean it doesn't sound right? Slow down.

You have like 30 arm chair mechanics here to help.

Could the fan have partially come apart?  That would certainly cause some ominous noises without affecting the integrity of the engine.

Lane, good point.  Perhaps the fan belt was too tight and the alternator bearing(s) froze causing the belt to go.  New belt turns it but with noise/interference.  Could run sans belt and see if sound disappears.

Before I put he new belt on I spun the alternator.  It spun freely and there was no noise.  It seems fine.  The motor does fire up and runs.  It responds the throttle, but there is a definite clanking noise that was not present before.  Should I put some new oil in it and fire it put to record the sounds and post so you guys can hear it?  I am not sure what to do?

Ted, Lane, and Greg have a good point; take the belt off and spin the alternator. If that's good then reach around and check that the fan isn't loose- it's a long shot, considering the circumstances, but the center hole does sometimes wear (it works fine for stock applications, but for higher rpm's and the speeds we can make it accelerate and decelerate it could use a more solid connection).

Start with pulling the valve covers and inspecting the valve train. Good luck. Al

PS- Maybe go on Youtube and listen to a VW engine with a rod knocking and see if it's the same noise you heard?

Some information about the alternator could help to diagnose.

What brand of alternator? How many miles on the alternator?

With the belt removed, is there any play or wobble in the alternator shaft? Worn alternator bearings might cause these symptoms - and are more suspect since the problem started when the belt broke.

And while we're at it, what can you tell us about the engine - who built it, how many miles, is it gluten-free?

I was adjusting valves on VW engine one time and found one was way out of adjustment - turns out valve stem was stretching and about to have the valve head break off.  Often the stock rocker assembly breaks down and shifts too.  There are nice solid rocker shaft kits available.  Once removing the valve cover you could very well find a broken half of a wavy washer or a 13 mm nut sitting there.

So many possibilities.  Fan/alternator spins,check for play forward and back at the shaft.  Check your alternator pulley, many aftermarket ones crack at the hub. One should never drive it without a belt.  You can drive them without a oil cooler but they won't last very long with out a fan belt. 

Does the motor turn over ok by hand??

don't you just love all the we advice from all us back yard mechanics��

Ok Doctors:

Attached is a sound clip of the motor running.  Let me know what you think

I would disconnect the van belt and try spinning the alternator by hand because the question I have is why the belt parted ways unless of course the belt was old. You might find that with the belt off and the engine running (short duration of course) would the noise still be there.

Is it possible that the sound is the fan hitting the fan shroud?  If the alternator stand is broken that might cause the belt to break and the alternator to tip and the fan to hit the shroud (or something in that chain).  If you take off the belt, the alternator and cooling fan will not spin.  This would be a quick test.

I don't hear any obvious rod knock or weird valve train noise. Have you tried starting it up without the alternator belt on it? Only run it for a short time, and after it's cooled down for a while with the engine lid up.

Stethoscope.

Or a piece of 1/4" wooden dowel held fast in your teeth (molars on one side of the mouth) with the far end of the dowel touched against whatever you want to hear. You'll hear things by bone conduction.

Stethoscopes are rare and over-rated. Wooden dowels are ubiquitous. And they work. Try it! (No, it won't be too loud, and you'll hear so much that you'll have to concentrate

I would like to hear the engine run without a fan belt, too. You can run for a minute or two+ without one. I'm also wondering if the alternator pulley was put on slightly cocked (the pulley, not the installer guy....). If it was, it may not wobble, BUT being slightly cocked might make the fan belt ride up and down on the pulley and it will make a strange rumble/rattle sound.

Bobby D posted:

Ok Doctors:

Attached is a sound clip of the motor running.  Let me know what you think

 

Take the belt off and remove the pulley at the alternator, look for a crack or broken pulley. With the engine off put your hand behind the shroud and grab the fan. Feel it if it is secure, move it up and down forward and back. Feel around for loose fins. 

Look at crank pulley and near the bottom where the tin is for debris from the broken belt. 

I removed the alternator belt and ran the engine for couple of minutes.  It didn't sound too bad.  A couple of little backfires but the engine noise seemed better.  When I spin the alternator with my hand, it spins freely, smoothly and does not make any sound.  I do think the alternator is tipped over so slightly downward.  I remember having a heck of time getting the fan shroud to line up correctly with the cylinder tins.  

I will try to make another recording without the alternator belt and post it here.

$5 at Harbor Freight

My money's on something not internal. I think Anthony's probably onto something with the pulley. 

$88 cents at Home Depot

Stan, I hope you are right.  I am scared to death to drive the old girl.  I have been chasing down little gremlins for the last three week:

-Oil blowing out the lower pulley - Fixed it by setting up breather box to vent case.

-Car dying after 20 minutes or so of driving and struggling to restart.   Battery was weak and bought a new one.

-Bought a hi Torgue starter as new battery did not solve hot starting issue, thought higher compression engine needed better starter..

-Now belt breaks and searching for source of strange noises (that may be real or in my head).

Ok, just went out an started it up.  Car is back firing pretty bad.   I recorded it again with no belt.  Take a listen.    I hope it is not a bent valve.

Sounds like the timing is screwed up.

Bobby D posted:

Ok, just went out an started it up.  Car is back firing pretty bad.   I recorded it again with no belt.  Take a listen.    I hope it is not a bent valve.

 

Go back to the basics. If have dual Weber carbs clean the idle circuit and jets. Check cap for crack.  Can't do much more over the internet. 

It could also just be because you are over-tightening the fan belt. If you've checked the fan play without the belt on, and the car isn't making the same sound w/o the fan belt, and the alternator stand isn't broken, and the alternator isn't crooked, and so on and so forth. It could just be that you aren't using enough shims and have oner-tightened the belt which in turn will put too much pressure on the alternator, which in turn will put everything out of alignment. The backfiring is probably because the timing is off with all of the stuff you were doing to the coil.

Anthony posted:

Go back to the basics. If have dual Weber carbs clean the idle circuit and jets. Check cap for crack.  Can't do much more over the internet. 

^ This.

Since the sound is still there with the belt off, that rules out alternator and fan issues.

I think someone already suggested it, but take off your valve covers and inspect everything inside.  If you don't see any obvious problems, take off the rocker arms and inspect them and the pushrods.  Make sure your pushrods are straight and the tips are not mushroomed.

Gordon Nichols posted:

$88 cents at Home Depot

Dental bill: $1500.00 after the dowel in your mouth accidentally gets caught in the fan belt.

Good one, Bob......   

Bobby D posted:

Before I put he new belt on I spun the alternator.  It spun freely and there was no noise.  It seems fine.  The motor does fire up and runs.  It responds the throttle, but there is a definite clanking noise that was not present before.  Should I put some new oil in it and fire it put to record the sounds and post so you guys can hear it?  I am not sure what to do?

 

2 cents...

Sorry man I know how this feels. Right after I had my engine rebuilt, and I mean within 10 miles, a knock started happening. I got soooo many opinions. I took it to a shop of a guy who builds race engines and he took me over to a case that was split. He demonstrated what he thought the noise was and he turned out to be correct. It was a bad bearing on the cam shaft and with the helical gear it was allowing the cam to slide back and forth hitting the case and making the knock. "Piston Slap" was the most frequent diagnoses I was hearing. 

The sound from your clip above could be anything, timing, clogged jet, a leaky intake, tight valve. I didn't hear a knock. Is it possible that you took off your pulleys and failed to put the woodruff key or keys back in? Hard to start after driving sounds like overheating to me. A missing woodruff key would cause overheating because your fan would be hardly turning. The friction on the pulley spinning on the shaft would cause excessive heat and possibly cause the belt to break. Just throwing it out there...

Hey Guys

I think I have made up my mind.  I am going to pull the engine and dissemble it.  I can have it apart in a day.  My father in law, a retired GM master mechanic, is going to come down sometime this week and take a look at it.   Together we can get it reassembled pretty fast once we solve any issues.  When I drained the oil, I saw some Brass metal shavings in oil.  During assembly we had some issues with the distributor drive gear which I believe is where those shaving are coming.  So with the potential recent overheating and the brass shaving, I think it is prudent to just tear it down and look it over.   I have too much money in the engine to take any chances.

I will keep you guys posted on our findings.  As always, I appreciate all your thoughts and comments.

Panhandle Bob posted:

Gordon Nichols posted:

$88 cents at Home Depot

Dental bill: $1500.00 after the dowel in your mouth accidentally gets caught in the fan belt.

It's hard to argue against a $5 tool, but it doesn't stop my buddy Gordon from trying.

...brass shavings...from distributor drive gear...I know all about that!

replace it with an OEM, they're available used in perfect condition and are what you want to use, I had a $5K motor go south as a result (partly) of that Chinese gear. I think it had melted-down Sapporo cans in it...

Will Hesch posted:

...brass shavings...from distributor drive gear...I know all about that!

replace it with an OEM, they're available used in perfect condition and are what you want to use, I had a $5K motor go south as a result (partly) of that Chinese gear. I think it had melted-down Sapporo cans in it...

Will, Will, Will, Sapporo is a Japanese beer. I think you meant Tsingtao beer cans!!

...there you go...