My 3.0 for the IM-6

OK so I figured I would spend a little time freshening up the 3.0L engine for the IM-6. After removing the fan shroud I found a little surprise..........;-)

Pretty common. Better to find it now then when it's up to temp. Time for a good cleaning and some gasket replacment, eh?

Also, if you keep the CIS, replace EVERY vacuum line especially the really big one at the back of the motor that crosses over to the oil reservoir. CIS runs on vacuum. One leak and it's all wonky.

angela

Ditto what Angela said.

I HATE rodents, don't you?

F that CIS Dave. Get some PMO's pn that thing!! ;)

You did check headstuds, right?

angela

Is that there what they call a "rat" motor?

~wb

If anybody is interested here is what was inside the motor.

[URL=http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/WardAutomotiveGruppe/DaveMPics/80%20Targa/?action=view¤t=IMG_0596.jpg][IMG]http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/WardAutomotiveGruppe/DaveMPics/80%20Targa/th_IMG_0596.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

The link takes me to an opening page for photobucket (no photo's)

You're probably logged in and it doesn't do it for you...

Try this:

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/WardAutomotiveGruppe/DaveMPics/80%20Targa/

If the whole link is not highlighted use the old copy and paste trick.

Thanks, this link works properly

Only seven broken studs? That's what is expected. At least you'll know what goes back into it. Looks like a nice place to work. Nice job on the disassembly.

Dave, your garage is way to clean and neat! I am envious, of you organized garage and your IM project, keep the info coming.

Thanks guys, the garage is not always that clean but I find when I have a project going I need to keep ahead of the mess.......;-)

Daniel you counted the busted studs, I'm impressed. Well maybe a little reading of captions. #1 cylinder had both lower studs broken. It took me almost two hours to remove all 24. Not much fun. Other than the busted studs I could not find anything wrong with the motor. Heck it drove nice from Vancouver WA home last year. I also got lucky and it was built with the Nikasil cylinders not Alusil. I'm saving a bunch of dollars because they look like new along with everything else. That said I'll have 6K+ into the motor with the upgrades. $500 in special tools but hey a guy has to have tools.......;-)

Will if your the same guy that has called me you had better make up your mind on the 86 Carrera.......soon. If not you will be missing a great car.......I found out something about the color. It codes 999 which is "Special Wishes" and come to find out it is the same as was used on the Sonoco 917 that Penske ran. Find another one.......

Stan, Dale, Terry help me out here if you want to see PMO's on the IM-6.

Since we're spending your money...sure! Why not?

I'd rather see the PMO's on my new car, but since that is not happening, seeing them on your's will do just fine!

The nikasil is a sweet bonus - hit and miss on a 3.0! Tolda to check the headstuds - LOL!

Contrary to popular belief though, you can re-ring pistons in alusil barrels as my daily driver 81 coupe can attest.

If you are going to stay with the stock pistons, may I suggest 964 cams? You can run those with the CIS or the PMO's. If you are committed to PMO's, well, now is the time to bump the compression.

What do you have in mind?

angela

I wish I could see the specs on the "964" cams. Wanyne Dempsys book mentions them used with the stock pistons. I want to keep the compression no more than 9.5:1 and would prefer to use the stock 9.3:1 pistons. My problem is valve clearence and I think I can get away with the "S" cams as well but I don't want to loose the bottom end torque. If I have to I can buy a set of JE Pistons at 9.5:1 and not have to worry about valve clearence but I don't want to spend a grand if I don't have to.

I guess it is all about how much I spend on the head work. They are at the machine shop now and I should get a call about what they will need Friday or Monday latest. In the mean time I'm ordering up all the lower end parts. They will be the same either way.

Dave,
I'm really excited that you're doing this!!!! I want to do a rebuild on a 3.0 so when the time comes I'll have it ready. Whether or not I'll have the time still remains to be seen, but I am going for what seems to be a similar build; nothing crazy, just a little extra umph.
Please keep us (me) posted on your progress. If you're keeping records (parts, costs, sub'd out work, etc...) I'd love a copy when you're all done.
If I recall correctly the 964 cams will improve top end (4-5k range) or at least that's what I remember reading, I think? I'm sure this engine is a whole different animal in a speedster replica. As you know the 911's don't have a great low end so I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with.

Mickey, I have the same book. Here's an offer for you.

I have a Porsche factory 911 engine stand you can use if/when you do it. I should be done building mine by then. I plan to build up the motor this winter. I just need gaskets and bearings, I have all the other parts for the build. Oh, also I will have a Z-block(NECESSARY for cam timing) and hopefully the cam nut wrenches.

It is just a matter of getting it you and back.

Danny, you're the man!!!!
That's worth a drive up there any day. Who knows, maybe Carlisle?
The 911 is running fine right now but I know a time will come...... I think it'd be pretty cool to have an engine I rebuilt in my car, not to mention still sputtering around long after I've passed it on. I appreciate the offer. I've been looking for the "perfect candidate". :)

David - you absolutely cannot run S cams with CIS. You can run 964 with either CIS or carbs. CIS also does not like high compression. I don't recall the point where it starts acting up - might be higher than you are looking at (like 10 to 1).

I don't see any reason that 964 would give you valve clearance problems with your stock pistons. This is a pretty common upgrade.

Don't have specs, but any decent porsche engine builder will have them or you can query on Pelican.

angela

Steve or is it Angela?

I won't be using the CIS just staying with the stock pistons at 9.3:1. I will either be running 40 IDA Webers or if I can swing it 46mm PMO's. I found the profile on the 964 cams but the way the later cams are listed they don't give you the lift just duration, overlap and lobe centers.

The set of Webers I bought (look very nice) might just be for sale.

Hey Dave,
I ran across this on Pelican and thought you'd like to see what your engine will look like. ;)

Geesh all it's missing is a prop :)

When Chris and I were at the Rolex race last February, there was a TRG 993 Turbo car that came in after qualifying and had a sick engine and the transmission was notchy. They had both engine and transmission out in about 15 minutes and two guys started the tear-down and rebuild, one guy on each.

We were amazed that they worked without a book or reference of any kind, had the tranny apart and rebuilt in just over an hour while the engine (which had a wrist pin problem) was done in just over 2-1/2 hours, then they had dinner and put everything back in time for the 7pm qualifying laps. I was astounded but was told by one of the mechanics: "Welcome to the big leagues!"

gn

Gordon, You're right, that's how they do it in the "big league"

My friend Kurt Meier (Porsche Exec. who passed away in 2004) did the same with the type 547 engine back in the early days of Porsche racing.

He rebuilt many an engine and transaxle at the race track.

When he went to work for Porsche in 1954 he was trained to be a racing mechanic among other things, and as time went by, he kept promoting within the company and by 1963 he was totally in charge of automobile compliance and although he was here in the USA, he worked for Porsche of Germany.
He was pretty high up in the food chain as he was invited back to Germany in 1998 when Ferry passed away.

Kurt was a great friend and when he passed, my source for "everything Porsche" was gone forever.

Dave / Mickey;

Here is the engine you need for your project...

If you are committed to the carbs, then the S cam won't be an issue. Not sure this is the A #1 choice for your heads and pistons, but it won't be detrimental (as they would be with the CIS).

As far as the Webers go, frankly, once you run PMO's you'll sell your Webers. If they are correct for Porsche's, and the throttle shafts are good, then you will recoup a good bit of money for them toward your PMO's.

If you go with PMO's, buy the linkage as well. It's more precise than the 911 factory linkages and is already set up. The 911 one will require fiddling as I've never seen one that didn't accumulate a bit of warp to it. We probably spent two hours literally bending ours back and forth to get the geometry right THEN set the adjustment to the carbs thenselves THEN set the carbs... After that, we drove the car to someone competant who commended us for getting two thirds of it perfect and he quickly adjusted the carbs themselves...

Anyway, the PMO linkage and fuel return/guage is really sweet. Are you going to 993 studs, ARP or other? The 993 are relatively a bargain compared to ARP...

angela

Micky,

I saw that same thread on Pelican. Very close to what I want.

Jim,

Nice but way overkill for a street car.

Angela/Steve,

It all comes down to the budget. If someone would buy the remainder of the 80 Targa for $3K then I can order the PMO's. If not I'll have to start with the Weber 40's. Between the new engine parts, machine shop costs including porting the heads to 39mm intakes, new SSI Heat Exchangers and M&K Sport Muffler I'm way over budget and I still have not decided on the cams.

There was another thread on Pelican where a guy in Canada built a 3.0 using Weber 40's 34mm intake ports and 34mm vents a combo intake/exhaust cam profile from two different grinds and was at 215HP and 204 ft/lb torque max at the rear wheels. At 2700 RPM it was already 175 ft/lb torque and maxed out the torque at 4750.

I like this quite a lot.....;-)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/502996-3-0-dyno-day-pleasant-surprise.html

Budget? Budget?

What budget, man?

Angela, you got it right in the first few words:

"If you are committed"............

Seriously Dave, if it was a coupe I'd drive out there myself and drag it home. I like Targas, just don't want to own one. I have a nice aluminum 915 trans and all the parts for a monster 2.7 twin-plug high compression MFI motor. I do know a friend with a '75 S Targa that has a tired body and a freshened top-end 2.7. I will give hime a call and see if he's interested.

That nice fat mid-range idea will work very well for your car, David. The S cams are a lot of fun, but they are pretty doggy at the bottom end... That's the part no one tells you about. Everyone points to the peak HP on them, but it's mid-range and torque that scoot street cars around. For the early 911's with the 2.4 or so engines, the S cars made about quite a bit more Hp than the E cars, but very frequently, the 911E would run circles around an S in spite of giving up peak hp. Why? Because it had so much more mid-range. The average person could get the E around faster than the S. I use the term "average" because if you get a real hot-shoe out there, then the S was, hands down, the fastest. But for the rest of us mere mortals, the mid-range power cars work much better. For a street car? No comparison, go midrange.

Another very nice alternative are the Zenith carbs. They are the red-headed stepchild of the group, but for a street car, they provide more driveability and adjustability than do the Webers - all without the fancy smancy price tag. PMO's out-weber Weber for performance and provide as good of drivability as Zeniths. Helluva package.

I also hope you are not offended by this, but I think you are rather high on your price for the tub. The last roller targa I sold went with the guages for $1,500 - and that was roller, brakes, suspension etc., still installed. The targa's aren't well loved as shells... A coupe shell, people are all over it, but not a targa shell. Economy's tough right now. When I bought my roller coupe, I paid $3,500 for it. I wouldn't pay more than $1,500 to $2,000 for the same car now... It's the one below - nowhere near as nice as your shell, but it was a full roller.

angela

Angela (under the guise of "Steve") wrote: "We probably spent two hours literally bending ours back and forth to get the geometry right THEN set the adjustment to the carbs themselves THEN set the carbs..."

Sounds like working with a "Quadrajet"...

I hate 'em.

Best use of a Quadrajet is as a boat anchor for R/C boats.

You adjust them the same way: Bend this little link this way and that little link that way and then test 'em. Not right? Then bend this little link THAT way and that little link THIS way and re-test. Still not right? OK then bend this link this way and that link this way, too and re-test, and on and on.

Oh, and the best way to tell of they're getting close to tune is to listen to them. I'm OK with that (do it all the time), but:

Is THAT any way to adjust a carburetor?????????

Quadrajet: I call them Quadrajunk ~

Angela,
I noticed the fence in the background of the Butters pic is two different finishes, did something happen? ;)

Angela,

I hear you but the 80 Targa is not just a shell. It comes complete with the set of 16x6 and 16x7 Fuchs with Falkin tires with only 650 miles on them. It will be a roller because I will have it on a stand. It has a very nice folding top as well. If I part it out and sell the top, bumpers, fenders, hood, lights etc I could get what I'm asking. If someone had a wrecked or rusty early car this is a great way to update a year model and still have a nice car. It does have a clean not salvaged title.

Somebody anybody interested?

I don't want a engine I have to twist to 6500 to get power I want the low end grunt like this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/502996-3-0-dyno-day-pleasant-surprise.html

David - I think you misunderstand what a "roller" is... A roller has complete suspension/brakes. A good targa top is worth quite a penny. The last good one I had I sold for $500 and it needed a reskin (but the arms, interior, etc., were pristine). Fuchs are always money in the bank. Good luck with your sale. And if it's low end and torque you want, stay the hell away from the S cams.

Mickey - the darned fence... We were an "owner build" on the house and followed all the Covenants and Restrictions to the letter, except for the color of our roof which we got permission from the developer for. The C & R's required taht each fence be stained on both sides with Sherwin Williams Whatever color this is gray. So we complied but nobody enforced any of the later people to this standard. Kind of annoyed us... I should go out and paint the part the neighbor put up but I ran out of the product so I'd actually have to spend money to correct their sloppiness. Hey, since the C&R's are obviously not being enforced AND the fence is built wholly on my property, maybe I should just go over there and paint the mutha pink!

angela

...or even better,Angela, instead of painting, install on the fence a full-length, life-size picture of junker cars on cinder-blocks, rusty washing machines, and greasy overalls hanging on a clothes line!

...sorry for the hi-jack, sometimes I can't help myself, but I would like to hear how this engine re-build progresses.

Ohhhh, I thought that was the section you torched while BBQing last summer. ;)