My engine is dead. Please advise.

Soooo, my 1600 died on the way to Vegas. I had it towed to the Beetle Barn in Las Vegas (David Stroud recommended it last time I had an issue in Vegas and they were awesome) and they're quoting me "at least $2,000" for a full rebuild. This rebuild sounded very thorough and his quote was "When I rebuild an engine, I rebuild it so I don't have to hear about it for a few years. I replace everything." That's what I like to hear. Now I have a few questions.

1) Is this a fair price?

2) If I'm gonna spend that much, am I better off finding a larger used engine? I've been complaining about how small/slow this engine is since the day I got it. I'm not trying to dump a ton of money into it right now but if I'm gonna spend $2,000+ on a rebuild, I could rationalize spending another ~$1,500 if it meant better performance. So assuming I have around $4,000 budgeted, is that enough to make the upgrade?

2 1/2) If I do find a used larger engine, am I going to have to take it apart and rebuild it anyway? Am I going to have to upgrade the transmission?

3) Any other options I am overlooking? Any advice is very, very welcomed.

If you buy a used larger motor you may have to disassemble to inspect it any way, so if you're paying someone to do it it's much smarter to spend the money and start with new parts. If you're getting a 1600 with all new parts, ask what it would be to upgrade to something larger. A counterweighted crank is not a huge difference in price whether it's a 69 or 78mm stroke, and the same is true for a 90.5 or 94mm piston/cylinder set. A 2007 (78x90.5) or 2165 (78x94) with ported 40x35 heads, mild cam, dual carbs and decent exhaust would scoot your tub along in real style and be no harder to take care of. You may end up spending a little more than $4,000, but it will be sooo much fun!!!!!(where's the smiling devil emoticon when you need him?)

If you behave yourself, your transaxle will last a long time before it needs attention. All depends on how you drive it- for starters, no dump the clutch drag race starts...

PS- Even a 1915 with some small carbs and ported stock dual port heads would be a lot more fun than you have now (and be easier on the budget).

Colin, I traded my 1915 last month with 2700 miles on it for my current 2332, I can't quote a price of what Powerhaus in Torrance is asking for that motor, but John is a stand-up guy, and if it is still available, I'm sure it would provide great service at a reasonable price...107-110 H.P. Dual 40mm Empi's....
Contact John at Powerhaus in Torrance, Ca. tell him Vince told you to call...if interested...

1) full rebuild kits for a stock 1600 are like $300. it takes 30 minutes to remove the motor. anyone who's done these motors before and has the shortcut tools (flywheel tool, crank gear puller, etc) could do it in under a day. i don't know what his shop rate is. if you are not going to do anything but tow it in and drive it out - i'd say the price is fair. if you are going to do anything - it's not fair.

2) yes - save, but why buy used? save and buy a new kit like a CB Performance one and build it yourself. It's not that hard. (oops - just checked and they are out of stock): http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1781

build yourself a nice 2110cc or a thick wall 92mm stroker. Lots of torque and plenty of power. you can get a full, no-brainer kit for ~$3K get it shipped and build it yourself (or have a buddy help). sheat - you mail that stuff to me and i'll build it for you no charge. it would be fun. sort of half-joking as shipping would make that not worth while.

2.5) you don't NEED to upgrade your tranny. just don't drop the clutch or do burnouts all day long.

3)

Allen - That's a good point. I'll ask them tomorrow. I guess I have another question. What's the difference between rebuilding my engine and building a new one? How much of the old one can be reused? Or is that case specific?

Vinny - Thanks. I'll call tomorrow.

Mango - I live in Los Angeles and the car is in Vegas. Tow it in and drive it out is really my only option. Unless someone wants to volunteer to tow it out to LA for a couple hundred bucks and dinner. No takers?

Having it towed back here would probably be nearly as much as the rebuild. I also can't imagine the Beetle Barn being cool with housing the car while I get another engine built. That's why I was originally leaning towards used. But if that would require a rebuild anyway, obviously not the way to go. If I can find one that I know is ready to go at a good price, I'd buy it and drive it out to Vegas for them to install. Otherwise, I'll probably have the 1600 rebuilt and upgrade down the road. Unless of course they can build something else for good value. I'm overwhelmed.

A turnkey from all new parts is going to be more expensive. If your block is reusable that's a 400-$800 saving, if your sheetmetal is original that's definitely worth keeping (the aftermarket stuff needs some "tweaking" to fit properly), there's no reason not to reuse the alternator or generator and (depending what you build) the fuel pump, rods, rocker assemblies, pushrods and (depending on how it died) even the heads may be used again. Your clutch might even be still usable

A relatively low budget build here (while still improving performance somewhat) would be a 1776, 1835 or 1915 with the stock crankshaft, rods, Engle W100 cam (or any thing similar), dual carbs and either stock or ported 35x32 (stock valve size) heads. 80-90 hp, rev to 5000 rpm with power (anything higher needs a counterweighted crank) and a step up from the 1600. You could give it a more radical cam so it revs higher with power but then the motor should have a counterweighted crank but a longer stroke costs the same as the 69mm, and the motor will need better heads and possibly bigger carbs and exhaust if you go much bigger.

A stroker motor with some ported 40x35 heads and 40mm Webers or Dellortos that revs to 5500 or 6000rpm with power would be a blast to drive and require no more maintenance than a stocker. If you go this way, a 74 or 76mm crankshaft is a waste of time; it's the same amount of work to fit a 78mm unit and the motor's bigger, and DISPLACEMENT IS POWER! A 2007 (78x90.5) or 2165 (78x94) built this way would be in the 130-150? hp range, and be a ton of fun.

Any word on what happened to your 1600?

If the price is right I'd seriously consider Vinny's old engine.

Colin,

"at least" means that's a minimum so I wouldn't use $2000. as your baseline figure. Auto repair places get your signature on that 'at least' contract and start from there. Every standard repair contract has a block of fine print concerning unforseen requirements that you've agreed to fill by your signature. It's hard for me to imagine a place that can stay in business "replacing everything" with labor for $2K. I'd expect your final bill will be closer to $4K and would that mean you only have a rebuilt 1600 like you had before?

You need to talk to the guy about what you're really looking for in an engine.

I agree that Vinnie's old one sounds like it's worth a try. If you could buy it and take it to vegas and let the guy sell you a clutch disc and install the engine he should be OK with making the lesser amount for less work but he won't want to warrant someone else's build and he shouldn't be expected to.

Listen to Vince. That is probably the most practical and economical solution.

Good idea, Ken. The engine is a manageable item to either drive yourself or ship to Las Vegas and I agree, $2000 is the "let's get started" price.

What happened to your motor?

Ok some new info but first things first. In response to what happened to the engine, I'm not sure. I was driving to Vegas. It was hot out (yes, I am a genius) and the engine just died on me. A little smoky and oil everywhere. The specifics of what happened and what shape it's in I'm not sure but I should find out later today or tomorrow. Regardless, I don't think it's that important anymore because all signs point to getting a new engine.

Moving right along. Vince's engine already sold which is too bad, but as of this morning I've got another plan. John Steele has a brother in Vegas who has offered to pull the engine out and house the car indefinitely. That will allow time for me to get a whole new engine built. It seems like the best option right now.

Assuming I go this route, I now need to figure out what the correct engine is for me. I obviously want something faster. To be honest, I'm less concerned with low end power (I'm not trying to race this thing) than I am with cruising speed. I plan on taking the car on a lot of long distance road trips so being able to reliably cruise at 80+ mph for several hours a day, several days in a row is a necessity. General reliability and longevity is also important. I would consider this car an almost daily driver. Meaning, I use it every chance it's appropriate. Which includes trips to home depot for stuff that would fit muuuuuch better in the Prius.

I would strongly recommend going straight to a reputable builder such as Pat Downs (CB Perf.) or Roland Rascon. There is no doubt that they would back their product, and they have a direct stake in you being satisfied. Both have first-rate reputations and both are in CA. I'm sure there are others that folks can recommend.

Colin, I'm sorry for your problems. I'm new at this and NOT a confident wrencher, so I truly understand the decisions you're faced with...anxiety.

Were it me, either a rebuild or purchase, I would first ask SOC people for 'feedback' (via confidential PM's) on any potential builder / seller.

I've read of several nightmarish engine experiences on this forum that might have been avoided with EXPERIENCED advice.

no one really knows who builds JPS motors do they? its a little iffy for me.

I had the same reaction as Lane. A thing of beauty is a joy forever. Get what you want from CB and enjoy. A rebuild, I anticipate, will cause more headaches, and probably more cost, in the long run.

Has Chico done work for any website owners? Is he reputable?

Bob

Chico is very solid.

COLIN !!

I would say rebuild the stock engine on the cheap to get you back home.... I'm sure the mechanic in Vegas can get a hold of a stock 1600 to throw in there for under 1k. Just to get you home...

Then....do more research once you are home to build your stroker engine.
There are sooo many options for a performance engine. Not a choice to be made under pressure.
Take the time....and do it right.

Mike

Colin,

I just picked up a 2007cc blow through turbo engine that I'm going to pull down and inspect. I'm going to install all new bearing and seals and rings if needed. If your interested I can build it back up as a normaly asp (just carbs, no turbo) for $5,000 turnkey minus exhaust. Or rebuild it as a turbo motor for an additional $1500. I give guys 12 months 12,000 miles on all of my motors. Let me know if you want it. I will also have the 2276 out of my Speedster, complete with either a 911 fan shroud or a normal vw/porsche shroud turn key with exhaust for $7500 in a couple of weeks.

This situation is screaming for a used soob 2.2. $3k all done & 135hp, 145lbs torque, proven system for cruising all day to FL. Get ye to Craislist & look for a 94 Legacy or similar. Try to find one with less than 100k on it--that'll have another 100k in it.

Kevin...

How do you like 2007cc engines? I have been thinking of building one.

Mike

Colin, take your time and think this through...
Ed, I agree.
Mike, FWIW, I've been running a 200cc for a year now and love it!

2007cc

Based on everyone's advice, I think I found the engine for me. It's a GEX 2666 turbo. It has 418hp and does 0-60 in 2.1 seconds, and that's before giving it nitrous. All that for $375 shipped. Sounds good, right?

I'm going to meet with John Steele tomorrow to discuss all possible options. I'm really leaning towards a Subaru and I want to find out all the info I can. I'm also going to discuss with him what you guys are saying about CB vs his builder.

Carl - That's good advice. The thing is though, I'm not gonna start blindly emailing guys and I wouldn't even know who to ask. If anyone has any feedback, good or bad, that they'd prefer to keep off the forum, I would love for them to email me. Of course, I would never betray that privacy. Other than that, all I can do is ask here in the public forum.

Mike - That's not really an option. The rebuild sounds like it'll be several thousand dollars.

Kevin - Thanks for the info. I'll let you know if those become an option.

Ed - I think we're on the same page here. I am yet to find one with less than 150,000 miles so far but it'll happen. Will the 2.5 fit in a cmc?

Colin, I suggest you do more reading about GEX engines before pulling the trigger on this. Remember, patience is your friend right now.

"Based on everyone's advice, I think I found the engine for me. It's a GEX 2666 turbo. It has 418hp and does 0-60 in 2.1 seconds, and that's before giving it nitrous. All that for $375 shipped. Sounds good, right?"

How does it go- if it sounds too good to be true it usually is..You had me for a moment there; very good!!!

I highly recommend doing a search on GEX on this site. I have not first-hand experience, but I've read plenty about them on this site. What I read didn't instill confidence.

I highly recommend doing a search on GEX on this site. I have not first-hand experience, but I've read plenty about them on this site.

GEX= caveat emptor

DUDE!!! no GEX...... Don't do it. They are not engine "builders"....just parts assemblers....sometimes even ,mismatched and used parts. Run away!!

Mike

Colin's e-mail re GEX was satire.

Alright alright, I'll never use sarcasm on this forum ever again. My mistake.

I would strap a few leaf blowers to the back of the car before I'd ever buy a GEX. That better?

Don't worry Colin, some of us got it. It took me a second or 2 (I guess I'm not the sharpest knife on the block) but I got it...

I know Allen, I'm only joking. Except about the leaf blower thing. I'm very serious about that.

You can get some good thrust out of leaf blowers. Contact a couple of guys named Arfon in LA somewhere. They'll steer you right.

Or, if you're able, scroll this page for trustworthy longblocks:http://vwparts.aircooled.net/VW-Longblocks-s/78.htm

That'd let you save on tin, carbs, exhaust, and such while getting an already built engine in a selection of sizes at decent prices.

Colin, I think Dave Stroud is the reigning DIY Sooby expert. He said something (check this, I'm not sure) about you need 29 inches between the frame rails to fit the 2.2.

The 2.5 is a hair wider.

There's a lot of forums on this general subject. The early Soobs--90-94 2.2--are compact and fairly easy to wire up. The later 2.2s--which have a bit more power, but are the same dimensions--are a little trickier in the fuel and spark dept.

The 2.5s--big power, and might just fit. Plus less likely to be used up junk. But maybe even a little harder to build the harness & etc. for?

Anyway. When the time comes, I'm going to try to do it mostly Stroud's way. But right, finding a 20-year-old donor with less than 150k on the clock is a challenge.

Gotta move up to New Hampshire and start haunting estate sales.

Or hope GEX starts marketing Sooby rebuilds.

Wiring tips: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=136053

consensus starter: IMI-101 ($180, currently) http://www.goodvibesracing.com/IMI_Starters.htm

*speed sensor: The Gen1 just need a ground signal 5 times per wheel revolution
Its the late model OBD2 stuff that needs 5v signals

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=132524&start=75 (look at speed sensor v 2.0)

More EJ22 specs: http://www.ultraligero.net/Descargas/Manuales/Subaru/EJ22-Overhaul.pdf

Engine weight: 127 kg (280 lbs) dry, according to this dutch aircraft guy: http://www.jodel.com/index.asp?p=subaru1&engines
(Stock Type1 VW is 120kg).

-snip: The EJ-22 in stock form will deliver 135 hp. There are numerous vendors who sell engines based on this block, and all have reground their camshafts, as the original ones have the torque peak too low in the RPM range. Properly recammed (SOHC), the EJ-22 will deliver an honest 160 hp, although up to 200 has been claimed by some (prepare your pinch of salt here).

I've had a Corvair, one original Beetle, two Karmann Ghias, and three Speedsters.

I've never had problems with an air cooled engine. I can perhaps see the lure of a water cooled Subaru (I have an Impreza), but I'm not willing to give up the originality aspect of my car. Air cooled engines can be just as reliable as water cooled.

Just my .02, and it's probably worth less.

:-)

Not trying to step on anyone's toes but "originality"?
Let's see what is original about our cars:

Fiberglass bodies-No
Disc brakes-No
Brake handle on the transmission tunnel-No
Radial tires-No
VW engine-No
VDO instruments-No
Weber or Delorrto Carbruators-No
Cruiser type transmissions-No
Seat belts-Maybe

Can anyone really say what is original about our cars?