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My new 2,387 engine

FM Former Member
This is what I posted on the CLF - some of the responses are interesting:.

Someone asked how the motor went. It went Ping-ping-ping with 12.4
to 1 compression between 3,000 and 5,000 RPM, .045" deck height,
CB Perf. clone of an 86b on 112 LC's and 4 degrees retard, 48
DRLA's, 1 3/4" exhaust through 2 1/2" Dynaflow, Mallory with
Pertronix at 15 degrees total advance, and 91 octane Shell premium.

The Mallory single-point mechanical distributor got points float at
around 6,000 RPM so we pulled them and put a Pertronix in.

Web Cam screwed up my 86b on 114 LC's (they didn't grind the cam
bearing journals to size...) so we had to improvise. John Connolly
says the cam is providing too much cylinder pressure, but I thought
the squishies were about cylinder pressure (we're running one point
less compression than his 13.5 to 1 figure).

Sewer main sized main jets (215) killed the detonation but the
exhaust looked like a diesel and power went blah. Pat double
checked for vacuum leaks (none) and tried a different muffler
(Magnaflow lost a little power compared to the original Dynomax). He
also swapped out the 48 DRLA's for a pair of 44 IDF's to see if
something was wrong with the DRLA's - no improvement.

Pat is gonna make flat tops out of the squishies, unshroud the
chambers a bit for a 9.0 to 1 compression ratio, and put my 86c in.
He says that will easily make 205 to 215 BHP on pump premium with
no detonation.

This is NOT a condemnation of John's pistons; he may be right - it
could be the cam. If Web Cam hadn't screwed up my 86b the engine
might have run happy as a clam. Anyway, this was our experience.

So the question is really this - do you want to make the same power
on pump gas with (A) a smaller cam and higher compression or (B) a
bigger cam with lower compression? Answer B is less expensive to
build.

Oh, the engine was assembled without the L&N Engineering biral
cylinders. The 10mm studs they sent with the cyls would not fit
through the holes in the fins. Trying to enlarge the holes in the fins is risky as they are very thin, and even then when the cyls get hot they might side-load the studs. When I called them and asked about this they said that's why they wouldn't be making 94mm birals any more; only nicasils. They didn't tell me what to do with mine...

Anyway, live and learn; if you don't try different stuff you won't learn anything...:o).

By the way, you couldn't ask for nicer hosts than the people at CB
Performance. I hung around for four days and got the best treatment
you can imagine from everyone. Friday night Pat and his lovely wife
Amy had a cookout party at his house and I got to meet Mike and
Cindy Lawless. The engine may not have worked out but I had a great
time visiting the folks at CB.
Original Post

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FM Former Member
This is what I posted on the CLF - some of the responses are interesting:.

Someone asked how the motor went. It went Ping-ping-ping with 12.4
to 1 compression between 3,000 and 5,000 RPM, .045" deck height,
CB Perf. clone of an 86b on 112 LC's and 4 degrees retard, 48
DRLA's, 1 3/4" exhaust through 2 1/2" Dynaflow, Mallory with
Pertronix at 15 degrees total advance, and 91 octane Shell premium.

The Mallory single-point mechanical distributor got points float at
around 6,000 RPM so we pulled them and put a Pertronix in.

Web Cam screwed up my 86b on 114 LC's (they didn't grind the cam
bearing journals to size...) so we had to improvise. John Connolly
says the cam is providing too much cylinder pressure, but I thought
the squishies were about cylinder pressure (we're running one point
less compression than his 13.5 to 1 figure).

Sewer main sized main jets (215) killed the detonation but the
exhaust looked like a diesel and power went blah. Pat double
checked for vacuum leaks (none) and tried a different muffler
(Magnaflow lost a little power compared to the original Dynomax). He
also swapped out the 48 DRLA's for a pair of 44 IDF's to see if
something was wrong with the DRLA's - no improvement.

Pat is gonna make flat tops out of the squishies, unshroud the
chambers a bit for a 9.0 to 1 compression ratio, and put my 86c in.
He says that will easily make 205 to 215 BHP on pump premium with
no detonation.

This is NOT a condemnation of John's pistons; he may be right - it
could be the cam. If Web Cam hadn't screwed up my 86b the engine
might have run happy as a clam. Anyway, this was our experience.

So the question is really this - do you want to make the same power
on pump gas with (A) a smaller cam and higher compression or (B) a
bigger cam with lower compression? Answer B is less expensive to
build.

Oh, the engine was assembled without the L&N Engineering biral
cylinders. The 10mm studs they sent with the cyls would not fit
through the holes in the fins. Trying to enlarge the holes in the fins is risky as they are very thin, and even then when the cyls get hot they might side-load the studs. When I called them and asked about this they said that's why they wouldn't be making 94mm birals any more; only nicasils. They didn't tell me what to do with mine...

Anyway, live and learn; if you don't try different stuff you won't learn anything...:o).

By the way, you couldn't ask for nicer hosts than the people at CB
Performance. I hung around for four days and got the best treatment
you can imagine from everyone. Friday night Pat and his lovely wife
Amy had a cookout party at his house and I got to meet Mike and
Cindy Lawless. The engine may not have worked out but I had a great
time visiting the folks at CB.
FM Former Member
Erik, Pat will flat-top the pistons (cut the domes off) and unshroud the valves a bit to get 9.0 to 1 static compression with .045" to .050" deck height. Then he'll put the Web Cam 86c cam back in with 1.3 ratio Pauter rocker arms. He says from experience that should make around 215 BHP.

I've heard several other people have had the same experience with these pistons - but that's just hearsay. Evidently there is really only one cam to use and one definitive igniton advance curve and total advance that works, which is kind of dumb - why would everyone want the SAME engine build?

So the question becomes do you want to spend $695 for a set of special pistons (with HEAVY and DUMB wrist pins - I had some custom replacement pins made) and use a special cam and ignition setup or stock pistons and a choice of "bigger" cams with normal igntion variations and get the same BHP?
(Message Edited 6/17/2003 5:14:14 PM)
FM Former Member
A lot of us were watching these pistons and wondering if they were a better mousetrap. John C. stands behind everything he sells, did he offer to take them back?

And especially disappointing to hear about the problem with the biral cylinders you bought.

I am sorry to hear about the teething problems, George. I hope I would be as gracious as you are when all your thorough planning didn't come together -- pity my rental car if it was me in California.
MASSIVETYPEIVMASSIVETYPEIV
Very interesting,

George, don't go slamming LN on their Birals, I have used 3 sets and drilled the fins with a letter Y bit in my old 1940ish Bridgeport like butter, no issues at all.

my 12:1 2332 (228BHP pulling the 911 fan)the Dells that I sold you, I run a 150 main on pump gas and a 158 on race geas to burn clean and clear with a 36cc chamber..

I have used about 400 Web cams and never experienced the issue you speak of..I guess you just have bad luck.
FM Former Member
Ron makes points we should all remember, mainly that in any more or less experimental framework "Your mileage may vary". I don't dislike Jake, and I think he probably knows more about building strong type 4 engines than just about anybody. We simply disagree about the relative merits of type 1 and type 4 engines.

I also don't dislike John Connolly, I simply disagree with much that he has said about the squishy pistons and was disappointed that he didn't provide specific and complete information about camshafts and ignition tuning requirements for his pistons with different compression ratios before or with the purchase of his product.

The LN Engineering cylinders were also a disappointment - I found it odd that they delivered high-dollar parts that will not work WITH EACH OTHER as shipped; and even if the radial clearance had been correct the studs were much too long for my build (and they obviously knew the cylinder length).

The Web Cam fiasco was kind of funny - makes you wonder about their quality control on a high-dollar, custom ground camshaft.

I've done "experimental" engines before so none of this stuff really surprised me that much. The moral is simple: if you want to do leading edge stuff take along some band-aids because you may get cut.
(Message Edited 6/18/2003 10:36:51 AM)
MASSIVETYPEIVMASSIVETYPEIV
Ron,
Sorry that my point blank style with George disappointed you. Yes, George and I have had issues, and probably always will, some people are destined to never get along. I sometimes get out of line and lose my tact, some people like it, some hate it, and some don't care, but most respect the fact that I'll stand up to the BS and speak my mind.(guess thats something I learned at parris island)

George, I know you have done your homework on these engine combos......don't tell me that you did not ask questions to John....and if you did not and did your own homework, then you must pay for those mistakes with the ultimate sacrifice-tearing it back down!

I do experiemntal engines all the time, they go into my personal cars- Yes I goof up on the combo sometimes, but I grin, bear it and tear it back down.

I changed cams 14 times in my company bus before I found THE CAM for that engine combo.

The main thing is that alot of this is hearsay, and opinion...thats why I tape record EVERY phone conversation I have with EVERY customer and have email subfolders for each customers emails to and from me...There is nothing like PROOF! If John had of done that, things would be interesting for sure right now.

As for the LN parts, that was their first run of Birals....and even I had issues on their TIV cylinders, BUT it was nothing that a 10 dollar drill bit would not solve. I KNOW Shad and Charles and do not think they would have been short with you on the phone, unless they had good reason. (IE you had already been a jerk to them before, your style just somehow pisses people off!)

Anyway, I'm a Jerk and I know it,(but only when pushed into a corner by certain people) but one thing is for sure....You'll always know where you stand with me- Right,wrong, indifferent, nothing matters.
FM Former Member
Well Jake, I agree with Ron. The problem with your comments on CLF was that they had nothing to do with the topic. It was just childish name calling and insults. What I respected was that George was quite polite back. As my kids say, (thanks to Thumper) "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all."

There are always two sides to every story and in a case like this usually both sides are at least somewhat to blame. What I see so far is George taking his share of the responsibility for this and presenting an amazing "oh well" altitude, where all see from John is "it's not my fault".

My 2 cents worth...you get what you pay for,
Ron
FM Former Member
George, when we sold you your birals and head studs, your cylinder lengths were unknown and even after you gave us the final length, we had to machine them *shorter* than a stock cylinder since your engine specs changed. Our head studs are set up to accept a stock length to ridiculously sized length cylinders on purpose, since our Nickies are available in such lengths. I offered to take back the head studs and you renegged on the offer, so I don't see why you need to bad-mouth us, like Jake said. The offer is still standing if you are unhappy with the studs. And regarding the birals studs holes being tight, we did so knowingly to retain maxiumum stregth around the stud holes on the fins understanding that it would make assembly a bit more triky- you are the only customer that had any problem with it whatsoever, so what's your point again :-) Sorry to hear about your engine; i'm sure that Pat will have it purring like a kitten in no time flat.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
FM Former Member
Charles, I didn't "bad mouth" you, I simply told it like it is. I think your products are very nice and ultimately will be great sellers in the VW performance market. I was just very surprised that you would ship parts that are supposed to work together but don't. My descision to switch to CIMA/Mahle barrels was based on what I could see and what Pat experienced. No big deal, just telling it like it is.

Sure, you offered to take the studs back for a refund, but if ANY 10mm studs don't work without modifiying the cylinders I personally find that unacceptable in a $1,000 set of highly touted, custom made parts. I'm selling them to someone who wants to make them work.
FM Former Member
Ron, you're right - we were playing experimental engine and "hoping for the best", but I knew going in the results might not be what I wanted or expected. Pat Downs was probably just as curious as I was to see if the combination would work.

The idea behind my post is to SHARE INFORMATION to help other people make choices and/or avoid any of the same problems.

Imagine what some home engine builder would have encountered in his small-town garage - custom engine case that was supposed to be a "drop in" for 86mm crankshaft needed a lot of additional clearancing, camshaft bearing journals are too large for the case and cam bearings, head studs don't fit cylinders and are too long, combustion chambers must be clearanced for the pistons, exhaust system requires modification on one side to clear engine tin, etc.

And some people wonder why I wanted Pat to build the engine at CB Performance and watch/help - CB has FULL machine shop, welding, and fabrication facilities.
FM Former Member
George is building a difficult engine in that it's not a cut and dry combo. What George and Pat are doing is R&D and will require alot of experimentation and frustration. What's really great about this story is Pat at CB is working it out with George instead of refusing the job and sticking to what he know works. The sad thing about this story is all the bickering going on elsewhere. I do have to say though that anytime a new product is designed there will be some of this going on because.....most likely it won't work on the first go. R&D is a difficult thing and I would imagine that building a huge type one engine will take lots of money and time when your outside the normal engine combo box. Good luck to George.

J-P
FM Former Member
Jean-Paul, we tried different jetting, timing, carburetors, mufflers, then gave up. Neither Pat nor I have the time to do a lot of R&D (multiple engine teardowns/rebuilds) so Pat is simply going to rebuild it to a known specification that will make 215 BHP on unleaded pump premium gasoline.

The 215 BHP on pump premium was my original goal, and it might not have been possible with the "correct" camshaft, timing, and 12.4 to 1 compression ratio with "super squishy" pistons.

By the way, the maker of the S/S pistons for Aircooled.net saw all the flack on the CLF and called Bob Tomlinson (CB Peformance); he told Bob he had a much better design available for aircooled VW engines if CB wanted to buy them. Is that funny, or what?
FM Former Member
George,

I felt at this site you took the fairly high road when telling your saga until you made the comment, second-hand only, about what John C is alledged to have told CB Performance owner. As a business that also R & D's their own parts for the market I am not saying there is but there is a possibility for bias. Time will tell if SS pistons are a better mousetrap, some swear by them.

Regarding Air-cooled.net introducing new products into the marketplace I am all in favor, ditto Shad and Charles. That there is now a second generation SS piston is encouraging by my thinking, though for those that bought early, well, they were big boys when making their decision.

What I am fuzzy about is was there good two-way communications between the seller of the parts and how they would need to be configured to work properly by the buyer. Or vice versa, did the buyer listen and follow the build recommendations. That said I know you are very thorough and thought it through on your end and I am sorry it didn't work out.
FM Former Member
You know, anybody that has been around these boards reading for a while and know some of the people in person, will only laugh!

George:

Wish you only the best of luck with that new engine. Maybe I can drop by after you get your new car and see the end result. That would definately be fun.....

As to the turbo question, I ahd asked the same questio myself a long time ago. He gave me his reasoning, which I can't remember now, but it was a valid one. Maybe he'll share it again.
FM Former Member
Erik, no real initial communication about cams and ignition advance requirements when I bought the pistons; I got a box with pistons, circlips, rings, and wrist pins and nothing else. In fact, John told Pat on the phone that the cam Pat ws goin to use in my engine should work just fine with the pistons.

Regarding LN Engineering, they are making very nice stuff but communication was not good from start-up; it appeared to be a new business with no full-time business hours (it took about six months to get my clinders). That has probably changed for the better since they are now more into a constant production mode.

Jean-Paul, I really don't like turbos or fuel injection on a street performance (as opposed to racing) car and a good turbo setup would use EFI.
(Message Edited 6/23/2003 10:52:53 AM)
FM Former Member
Sorry again George, but you're way off the mark again. It was your fault that the cylinders did not get to you sooner, since you placed your order late in the summer of '02 and we didn't get your final specs of cylinder length until december, which we then proceeded to machine to length and cryo, then you changed your length again on us, requiring us to source additional components to fill your order. We made every possible effort to fulfill your order with due dillengence which never was to your satisfaction. And we are a full time operation, and have been as such for quite some time, but believe whatever you want to believe...

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
FM Former Member
Charles, as I recall I put you in touch with the engine case manufacturer and told you the stroke, rod length, etc. I never gave you any cylinder lengths as I didn't have specific engine case data to work from. I'm sure some of the delay wasn't the fault of LN Engineering. Whatever.
FM Former Member
Ron, Pat Downs has been snowed under with work; he had rescheduled my engine for sometime next week (I think?). This delay hasn't been a big deal since my new IM Speedster is just now at the stage to be painted. Henry has done a lot of "under the covers" custom fibreglass work and extra pre-paint prep on my car, and the painter will probably shoot an extra coat of metallic and one or two extra coats of clear before IM can finish up the interior, etc. Hopefully the paint job will be incredible. Also, the new wide-five front brake kits for standard (not dropped) spindles are still "in process" and won't be available for a week or two. The engine will be using a "prototype" pair of the new CNC "large" ported heads with quite remarkable flow numbers.

Anyway, Pat and I will talk on the phone about the dyno run and he'll fax me a dyno output sheet. Then I'll post the numbers here. Please, God, let the engine survive intact and undamaged when shipped to IM.

The real test/tune is of course in the car as opposed to on the dyno; dynos are only good for initial tune and testing the engines integrity (initial carb jetting, oil pressure, operating temperatues, etc.). Loads imposed on the engine from a car on the road are quite different from those created by a dyno brake.
(Message Edited 7/18/2003 1:54:05 PM)
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